Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California, #2

[Ausgirl]

Yet, no one seems to want to discuss the actual accusations the Zahau sent to the court. Is it because their theory is so implausible and ridiculous?

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Fwiw, I agree with you that the twins are attractive, normal sized women. Though I maintain the position that their weight and attractiveness have NOTHING to do with the topic of this thread.

 

[MaybeNotToday]

Yes. Her body was totally disrespected and her value as a person was discounted from Day 1...make that Hour 1...as though she were "just the help" or worse.

Again, do you believe that was due to her ethnicity? We are discussing minority status and how it relates to her life and death. I am not trying to be snarky-

 

[MaybeNotToday]

<mod snip>
Fwiw, I agree with you that the twins are attractive, normal sized women. Though I maintain the position that their weight and attractiveness have NOTHING to do with the topic of this thread.

I think, and I don't want to speak for Lucky Lucy, but out of all the many theories discussed here, the one theory that really counts is the one least discussed. It is my suspicion (hey, I can have those too) that it's easier to keep reciting "Murder!" instead of answering to specific challenges. When one theory has proven to have too many holes, just switch over to another one. Mix and match style- combining elements that conflict but who really cares because it was Murder!

Thank goodness the Court requires one to lay out the specifics of a claim. And they can't be changed in the middle of it just because they cannot answer to the challenges.

 

[kittychi]

Again, do you believe that was due to her ethnicity? We are discussing minority status and how it relates to her life and death. I am not trying to be snarky-

Personally, yes I do think it was due, in part, to her ethnicity. I can think of no other excuse.

 

[kittychi]

I think, and I don't want to speak for Lucky Lucy, but out of all the many theories discussed here, the one theory that really counts is the one least discussed. It is my suspicion (hey, I can have those too) that it's easier to keep reciting "Murder!" instead of answering to specific challenges. When one theory has proven to have too many holes, just switch over to another one. Mix and match style- combining elements that conflict but who really cares because it was Murder!

Thank goodness the Court requires one to lay out the specifics of a claim. And they can't be changed in the middle of it just because they cannot answer to the challenges.

Since there was no videotape of the event and IMO there was an intentional incomplete investigation, we are left with theories, aren't we?

For me, the bottom line is that a naked woman was found with her ankles bound, hands tied behind her back and a gag in her mouth. The knots, the dirty feet, the head contusions, the disappearance of Rebecca's clothing, all add to my suspicion of murder.

I don't profess to understand how it went down, even though I have read several plausible theories. I don't know how the Zahaus figured out what they believe happened.

 

[Betty P]

Wow!!

I'd love to know what's in the note that hasn't been released!!
If this is a suicide I can't imagine how Max's mum and aunt would be feeling. To lose your son to an awful accident is enough to go through, but then to be accused of murder (if they didn't do it of course) would be gut wrenching!

Will the contents of this note left to Jonah be released as part of this wrongful death suit??

I still can't work out why I'm not fully convinced either way!


MOO!!

Keep in mind, the alleged phone call and voice mail message from JS to RZ, like the alleged "note" are hearsay only. There is no proof, no evidence that either exists. They've simply been alleged to exist with no evidence that they do. SDSO even admits they have no proof of JS's phone call/message to RZ. None.

Sadly, there have been many allegations of "fact" and evidence in this case that simply do not exist. Those will finally be sorted out in the wrongful death lawsuit. JS's allegations of a call/message to RZ about his son's medical condition will not be allowed as evidence since there are no phone records and no witness. Same thing with the "note" if it can't be produced for jurors to read, the stories about it will not be allowed as evidence.

 

[Betty P]

I think, and I don't want to speak for Lucky Lucy, but out of all the many theories discussed here, the one theory that really counts is the one least discussed. It is my suspicion (hey, I can have those too) that it's easier to keep reciting "Murder!" instead of answering to specific challenges. When one theory has proven to have too many holes, just switch over to another one. Mix and match style- combining elements that conflict but who really cares because it was Murder!

Thank goodness the Court requires one to lay out the specifics of a claim. And they can't be changed in the middle of it just because they cannot answer to the challenges.

The Zahau family has put forth their claim and it sounds very plausible to me, MOO. The federal judge felt it offered enough detail and plausibility, as he ruled the case could proceed.

Only the victim and the witnesses who were at the mansion that night know what happened. The public will never learn the full details of RZ's murder unless someone confesses.

 

[MissUnderstood]

If you were going to fake a hanging would you go to such extremes? I'd never even heard of people tying their hands in a hanging suicide till I looked it up. I could see putting a noose over someone's neck and dropping them off the balcony, but all that other stuff is just bizarre!
On the other hand a suicide in that way is also strange!



MOO!!

 

[Betty P]

If one of the perpetrators is a tugboat captain who likes to view *advertiser censored*, the idea of elaborate binding and knot tying doesn't seem as farfetched.

The two sisters were consumed with a rage against the victim that had been boiling for a very long time. They were jealous of RZ, her beauty and her athletic physique. Hanging her outdoors, in the nude, trussed up, was their revenge. Its rather difficult to guess what they were thinking as they seem to both be rather eccentric and erratic, JMO.

 

[Ausgirl]

It is my suspicion (hey, I can have those too) that it's easier to keep reciting "Murder!" instead of answering to specific challenges. When one theory has proven to have too many holes, just switch over to another one. Mix and match style- combining elements that conflict but who really cares because it was Murder!

I'm sorry, but are you saying that this is what -I- am doing?

 

[Ausgirl]

If you were going to fake a hanging would you go to such extremes? I'd never even heard of people tying their hands in a hanging suicide till I looked it up. I could see putting a noose over someone's neck and dropping them off the balcony, but all that other stuff is just bizarre!
On the other hand a suicide in that way is also strange!

MU, I totally respect that you're on the fence over this one. I'm that way myself in several other cases, and it's not always an easy position to hold.

 

[bourne]

Again, do you believe that was due to her ethnicity? We are discussing minority status and how it relates to her life and death. I am not trying to be snarky-

Yes, I absolutely believe that the deficient investigation as well as purposefully leaving her dead nude body replete with a hanging noose about her neck and gag and feet and hands bind behind her bag in the scorching hot summer sun for over 13 plus hours was done intentionally because she was a minority. Name just one other case where this has happened to a non- minority. None, correct?

I believe in my heart of hearts that Dina was the woman whose photo was taken as she entered the Spreckels mansion the morning the police were called to investigate Rebecca's "violent, suspicious death" and that the WDS defendant, Dina, crossed the crime scene lines, and planted the seed in the police's minds that Dina likely said this illegal gold digging minority who was after Jonah's money Rebecca purposefully harmed her one and only son by throwing him over the indoor balcony railing in order to get her ex-husband's money, and that was why Rebecca hung herself. Hence, the tremendous lack of disrespect on part of the police towards Rebecca's dead body. That is the only thing that makes sense.

 

[bourne]

If you were going to fake a hanging would you go to such extremes? I'd never even heard of people tying their hands in a hanging suicide till I looked it up. I could see putting a noose over someone's neck and dropping them off the balcony, but all that other stuff is just bizarre!
On the other hand a suicide in that way is also strange!



MOO!!

If someone is *faking* something, yes, they go overboard. WAY overboard. Think about it this way. If someone's trying hard to lie, don't you think some people start making up crap and more BS in order to make their stories sound legit? Same thing here.

Rebecca's violent suspicious death was a murder. And the murderers staged the crime scene in order to obfuscate the truth. The police hearing a planted story about Rebecca suiciding over a little boy's critical fall skewed their investigation to confirm that suicide bias. Hence the police/ME immediately called it a suicide in less than one day. Hence, no investigation into whether Jonah's mysterious, vanishing voicemail actually existed. No attempted retrieval of voicemails from Rebecca's cellphone for over 30 days, no fingerprinting/processing of Jonah or Dina (yet fingerprinting/processing of Rebecca's teenage sister -- minority gets bitten again), no attempt to analyze blood found at the crime scene, etc.

 

[bourne]

If one of the perpetrators is a tugboat captain who likes to view *advertiser censored*, the idea of elaborate binding and knot tying doesn't seem as farfetched.

The two sisters were consumed with a rage against the victim that had been boiling for a very long time. They were jealous of RZ, her beauty and her athletic physique. Hanging her outdoors, in the nude, trussed up, was their revenge. Its rather difficult to guess what they were thinking as they seem to both be rather eccentric and erratic, JMO.

Excellent points! Yes, Rebecca's being found nude and hung in a publicly visible courtyard makes sense in light of what you've posted. One would think two fraternal twin sisters who've been exceedingly jealous of Rebecca's body and beauty just couldn't help themselves but flaunt her naked body for the world to see because hey, why not? A dead nude body is no longer quite that attractive, eh, especially if it's found with a noose about the neck and neck crushed and angled in a disgusting manner, no?

 

[Ausgirl]

I've yet to find any evidence that the twins held exceeding jealousy for Rebecca's looks, though if course it's a theory to consider.

In my mind, it looks more like sheer punishment. Compounded, as stated previously, by the police leaving her body lying there all day. It was actually smart of them to not remove any bindings prior to proper examination by an ME, that's good practice in suspicious deaths. But failing to locate ANY other ME in the entire state (or nation for that matter...) for 13 hours, and failing to erect some sort of covering to protect evidence and dignity is --and should be! - a permanent stain on that department's reputation. Gods, imagine if that was your sister. Your daughter.

It's amazing, isn't it, how many local professional and official parties seem to have behaved in exceedingly strange ways, surrounding this exceedingly strange death. We have the police dept doing all of the above, and also failing to test possibly crucial pieces of information, among other problems. Like allowing a Shacknai lawyer past the tape... We have Max's doctor filing a CPS report against a dead woman, 4 days after Max is injured, with the search warrant on the mansion sealed by police "in case" the "perpetrators" messed with the evidence... wut. Yet, as a CPS report *was* lodged, one has to wonder whether this taken into account over that "17 days" of investigation, and the process of deciding this crime should be ruled a suicide.

When you stand back and look at it all, it's plain that something's not right at all with any of this.

It's cases like this (or at least, as full of "unusual" and "inexplicable" things as this..) which in Australia tend to be the subject of Federal level inquests - sometimes multiple inquests, especially where LE or medical impropriety is a possible factor in why the case is not resolved (or is plainly 'resolved' in an improper way). They can be pretty merciless.. and don't always resolve things fully, but they surely do help some if not all of the truth to come to light.

Is there no avenue for such an inquest, in California?

Anyway, this "bigger picture" has certainly helped me understand a few things, despite obscuring others. The pity of it is, most of what went on in the underbelly of this crime is very difficult to prove in court.

 

[kittychi]

I've yet to find any evidence that the twins held exceeding jealousy for Rebecca's looks, though if course it's a theory to consider.

In my mind, it looks more like sheer punishment. Compounded, as stated previously, by the police leaving her body lying there all day. It was actually smart of them to not remove any bindings prior to proper examination by an ME, that's good practice in suspicious deaths. But failing to locate ANY other ME in the entire state (or nation for that matter...) for 13 hours, and failing to erect some sort of covering to protect evidence and dignity is --and should be! - a permanent stain on that department's reputation. Gods, imagine if that was your sister. Your daughter.

It's amazing, isn't it, how many local professional and official parties seem to have behaved in exceedingly strange ways, surrounding this exceedingly strange death. We have the police dept doing all of the above, and also failing to test possibly crucial pieces of information, among other problems. Like allowing a Shacknai lawyer past the tape... We have Max's doctor filing a CPS report against a dead woman, 4 days after Max is injured, with the search warrant on the mansion sealed by police "in case" the "perpetrators" messed with the evidence... wut. Yet, as a CPS report *was* lodged, one has to wonder whether this taken into account over that "17 days" of investigation, and the process of deciding this crime should be ruled a suicide.

When you stand back and look at it all, it's plain that something's not right at all with any of this.

It's cases like this (or at least, as full of "unusual" and "inexplicable" things as this..) which in Australia tend to be the subject of Federal level inquests - sometimes multiple inquests, especially where LE or medical impropriety is a possible factor in why the case is not resolved (or is plainly 'resolved' in an improper way). They can be pretty merciless.. and don't always resolve things fully, but they surely do help some if not all of the truth to come to light.

Is there no avenue for such an inquest, in California?

Anyway, this "bigger picture" has certainly helped me understand a few things, despite obscuring others. The pity of it is, most of what went on in the underbelly of this crime is very difficult to prove in court.

I am not sure what such an inquest would look like...do you mean FBI involvement? Remember that Sheriff Gore probably still has friends in high places there...which may mean nothing. Or it may mean there was a kibosh put on FBI involvement at some point.

Just opining and thinking out loud.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

P

Respectfully, to the first bolded part -- Wecht is 80 years old, is eminently qualified and has had a long career. He's had his ups and downs during that 50-60 years on the job, but he does know his stuff, and plenty of people continue to hire him and consult with him for homicides, *for that reason*.

Second bolded part: lots of bodies are exhumed in suspicious death cases, *because* a great deal of evidence does survive the embalming process.

Last bolded part: I do agree with you there. I think it's not relevant at all.

IMO, people continue to hire him because they know he will come up with whatever method of death they are looking for. Whether it is correct or not.

No, I believe the autopsy completed by Lucas the day after Rebecca's death is the correct one. And he did not determine it to be suicide until the revised date, when all the test results and forensic results were in. His autopsy was not one done for entertainment purposes.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

The Zahau family has put forth their claim and it sounds very plausible to me, MOO. The federal judge felt it offered enough detail and plausibility, as he ruled the case could proceed.

Only the victim and the witnesses who were at the mansion that night know what happened. The public will never learn the full details of RZ's murder unless someone confesses.

As AZLawyer has kindly pointed out to us several times, the Judge did not rule on the validaty of the Zahaus claims- so he did not feel it offered plausiility. He only ruled that it contained the wording needed by the court to continue. He can still throw it out on lack of evidence, which is what I think will happen since the Zahaus have no evidence whatsoever to back up their trumped-up allegations.

 

[Ausgirl]

Just to be off topic for a moment, I'm not sure how many friends Gore would have left with the Feds or the CIA, seeing as he threw people under the bus over Ruby Ridge and other disasters.. but then, he did escape having to face any real consequences for any of it. So who knows.

I have a mental blind spot for the ins and outs of legal proceedings, but as I understand it, the process here is that there can be state-level coronial inquests into suspicious deaths, which can then recommend courses of legal action where applicable or changes to a law, if necessary: http://www.courts.sa.gov.au/OurCourts/CoronersCourt/Pages/Inquests.aspx

And I think the next step up from there is a Royal Commission, which takes it to a Federal level.

 

[MaybeNotToday]

Just to be off topic for a moment, I'm not sure how many friends Gore would have left with the Feds or the CIA, seeing as he threw people under the bus over Ruby Ridge and other disasters.. but then, he did escape having to face any real consequences for any of it. So who knows.

I have a mental blind spot for the ins and outs of legal proceedings, but as I understand it, the process here is that there can be state-level coronial inquests into suspicious deaths, which can then recommend courses of legal action where applicable or changes to a law, if necessary: http://www.courts.sa.gov.au/OurCourts/CoronersCourt/Pages/Inquests.aspx

And I think the next step up from there is a Royal Commission, which takes it to a Federal level.

This has had its own levels of review as well. They were all exhausted and that's why it's in a civil court.