Identified! NY - Mount Vernon, WhtFem 51UFNY, 18-25, Left Near Junkyard, Feb'88 - Veronica Wiederhold

[jessr927]

The article says she had broccoli in her stomach, and didn't mention any other contents. Kind of strange? Is that all she had eaten right before she was killed? I don't know anything about how long digestion takes, etc. It also says she was killed 6 -12 hours before being found at 11:54 a.m., and had been moved to the location on Carleton Place sometime after 10:20 a.m. (Feb. 14, 1988 was a Sunday, so I assume most of the businesses were closed). So if she were killed 6 hours prior to discovery (which would be 6 a.m.), where was her body until 10:20 a.m.? If she was killed on that street, there wouldn't be a 4 1/2 hour gap in time.

 

[jessr927]

And I keep coming back to the ligature marks - around the neck, wrists, and ankles, which is also how Midtown Jane Doe's skeleton was found - bound with an extension cord around her ankles and wrists, then wrapped around her neck. Midtown Jane Doe's date of death has been bounced around a lot due to the items found near/with her body, but some say it had to have been after December 1987 due to a label on one of the pieces of clothing. Could there be a connection with Mt. Vernon Jane Doe?

 

[Roselvr]

And I keep coming back to the ligature marks - around the neck, wrists, and ankles, which is also how Midtown Jane Doe's skeleton was found - bound with an extension cord around her ankles and wrists, then wrapped around her neck. Midtown Jane Doe's date of death has been bounced around a lot due to the items found near/with her body, but some say it had to have been after December 1987 due to a label on one of the pieces of clothing. Could there be a connection with Mt. Vernon Jane Doe?

I'm not familiar with Midtown JD; so went to your profile to grab the link for anyone that wants to read about her
NY - Hell's Kitchen NYC - Female 337UFNY, 15-21, Buried under Concrete Slab - Feb'03
Doe Network: 337UFNY * She was a victim of homicide by strangulation
Dentals: Available. She had expensive dental work at one point in her life, but her teeth also had severe decay, suggesting she may have been from a family of means but may have fallen on hard times, perhaps getting hooked on drugs, living on the streets or working as a prostitute.
America's Most Wanted

 

[Roselvr]

A fantastic article appeared in The Journal News today (the newspaper serving Mt. Vernon and surrounding communities) regarding this Jane Doe:

http://www.lohud.com/article/201312...old-Mount-Vernon-murder-mystery-Who-Jane-Doe-

I guess they don't realize there is DNA on file for Cathleen Martin in NamUs

A New Jersey lead

Now a private investigator, Ossipo strongly believes the unidentified woman is Cathleen Marie Martin, who went missing from Cape May, N.J., the year before Jane Doe’s body was found. He said he made arrangements to have DNA samples from Martin’s son and daughter checked for a match but the tests were never performed.

Several of her relatives agree with Ossipo’s conclusion about the Mount Vernon victim’s identity.

Martin’s daughter, Shantelle DelConte, and her ex-husband, John Martin, viewed pictures of Jane Doe and told The Journal News they believe the woman is Cathleen.

On the other hand, Cathleen Martin’s sister, Irene Fox of Florida, is skeptical. Although Fox agrees the pictures have striking similarities, she is bothered by a key discrepancy.

“I thought it was my sister,” Irene Fox said. “The only problem is the height.”

Jane Doe is 5 feet 3 inches tall. Fox said her sister was four inches taller.

Adinaro said the height difference is a key reason detectives doubt their Jane Doe is Martin.

 

[EmmaliLucia]

I wonder if the DNA is in CODIS now because of that? Like, they didn't do an update that she wasn't the Jane Doe, but they found it out and now can find out if she's a different Jane Doe

 

[Tatsachen]

I grew up a five minute drive from the area. This happened when I was a kid, so my memory may be somewhat unreliable, but that part of Mount Vernon & the bordering part of the Bronx that abuts it has barely changed over the past 25 years. The question December that nags at me most is where - - where was she from? There almost no chance that she was from the immediate area, but there was & is a homeless shelter nearby and hourly motels not far away (less than 5 mins by car). Assuming those were checked out and came up empty, the other question is why that location in particular was chosen. Carleton Place is hard to find even for a lifelong local--it's a side street of a side street, basically--and I doubt whoever did this ended up there by chance. It seems possible that it was a good spot for a car date and she was brought back there after the murder occurred. Forensic anthropology might shed light on her origins, but Mount Vernon barely has the money to investigate ongoing crimes, much less something as difficult and distant as this.

 

[Roselvr]

She shaved her pubic area, which is quite unusual for the time, but not her underarms and her eyebrows aren't plucked. It seems odd. But as you said, it might be that she was working the streets.

She looks so familiar.

Not only were her armpits unshaven; her eyebrows were not tweezed; which is what's familiar to me.

 

[jessr927]

Carleton Place is hard to find even for a lifelong local--it's a side street of a side street, basically--and I doubt whoever did this ended up there by chance. It seems possible that it was a good spot for a car date and she was brought back there after the murder occurred.

I had no clue where Carleton was, and I grew up in MV and drove past it probably hundreds of times over the years. Now that I look at it on Google maps, Carleton is a 7 min. drive from 241st/White Plains Rd. and 5 min. drive from Conner St., both known hooker strolls. The only question in my mind is, why such a long gap between time of death and the time she was found? Where was she being held for 4+ hours and why?

 

[dogperson]

Ordinarily I would think if a woman is going to shave anything it would be either underarms or legs rather than just the pubic area. But I was thinking about how difficult it is to shave under your arms without access to a shower or bath tub. If she was having to wash out of a sink somewhere she may have just let the underarms go and she only attended to the part she felt helped her with business if in fact she was a prostitute. If she was homeless or living in something like an efficiency apartment with other girls, or washing up in service station bathrooms, she may have figured just shave what's necessary for work and leave it at that.

 

[jessr927]

Whoever killed her must have wanted her to be found. He left her in front of a business, on an industrial block - all of the businesses would be open the next day (Monday). He took all of her clothes and personal effects with him, and untied her and took whatever he had tied her with. Why place her in such an obvious, open spot, when there are countless wooded areas, etc. in and around the area?

From the article: “What I can tell you is this person was comfortable spending his time making a presentation,” Geberth said. The average killer, he said, is not so meticulous about the appearance of his victim.
“The average killer kills,” he said.
Jane Doe’s killer appeared to have been making a presentation of a sexual fantasy to degrade the woman or to make police believe someone else committed the crime, said Geberth, who has handled more than 400 murder investigations and written four books on the subject.
“It is absolutely odd,” Geberth said. “It is beyond odd. It is bizarre.”
Geberth said the positioning is “one of peace versus the brutality that was inflicted on her. It is like an undoing.”

 

[reasypeasy]

The article says she had broccoli in her stomach, and didn't mention any other contents. Kind of strange? Is that all she had eaten right before she was killed? I don't know anything about how long digestion takes, etc. It also says she was killed 6 -12 hours before being found at 11:54 a.m., and had been moved to the location on Carleton Place sometime after 10:20 a.m. (Feb. 14, 1988 was a Sunday, so I assume most of the businesses were closed). So if she were killed 6 hours prior to discovery (which would be 6 a.m.), where was her body until 10:20 a.m.? If she was killed on that street, there wouldn't be a 4 1/2 hour gap in time.

The broccoli could have been because of dieting? It is a fairly common food that dieters use to replace meals when they want a full belly but not a huge amount of calories. If the broccoli was because she was dieting then chances are she ate that meal of broccoli in her home.

 

[reasypeasy]

Ok, this is just me being silly and as usual seeing similarities with a missing person it is unlikely to be because of distance... but those freckles near her eye remind me of the freckles on Sophie Helen Woodman. Wrong height and wrong eye color though.

http://www.australianmissingpersonsregister.com/SophieWoodman.htm
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/47dfvic.html


I think that little cluster of freckles is quite distinctive. Should be able to be matched unless a missing person was in the habit of covering them up with makeup.

 

[jessr927]

The broccoli could have been because of dieting? It is a fairly common food that dieters use to replace meals when they want a full belly but not a huge amount of calories. If the broccoli was because she was dieting then chances are she ate that meal of broccoli in her home.

Which is exactly what makes me think she wasn't homeless or a hooker.

 

[FiveFelines]

Forgive me if this was already discussed, but how do we know she shaved her pubic hair herself? To me, it seems plausible that perhaps her killer did that, especially because 1) no other body hair was shaved, trimmed, or tweezed and 2) what jess927 quotes below (BBM). The killer is said to have wanted to "make a presentation".

Whoever killed her must have wanted her to be found. He left her in front of a business, on an industrial block - all of the businesses would be open the next day (Monday). He took all of her clothes and personal effects with him, and untied her and took whatever he had tied her with. Why place her in such an obvious, open spot, when there are countless wooded areas, etc. in and around the area?

From the article: “What I can tell you is this person was comfortable spending his time making a presentation,” Geberth said. The average killer, he said, is not so meticulous about the appearance of his victim.
“The average killer kills,” he said.
Jane Doe’s killer appeared to have been making a presentation of a sexual fantasy to degrade the woman or to make police believe someone else committed the crime, said Geberth, who has handled more than 400 murder investigations and written four books on the subject.
“It is absolutely odd,” Geberth said. “It is beyond odd. It is bizarre.”
Geberth said the positioning is “one of peace versus the brutality that was inflicted on her. It is like an undoing.”

 

[jessr927]

FiveFelines, you're right, we don't know that she shaved her pubic hair herself. The few weeks worth of underarm hair and her unplucked brows seem out of place for a woman with painted fake nails (as per her NAMUS entry) who may have been on a diet (the broccoli). That suggests she cared about her appearance, which makes me think she may have been held somewhere against her will.

 

[FiveFelines]

FiveFelines, you're right, we don't know that she shaved her pubic hair herself. The few weeks worth of underarm hair and her unplucked brows seem out of place for a woman with painted fake nails (as per her NAMUS entry) who may have been on a diet (the broccoli). That suggests she cared about her appearance, which makes me think she may have been held somewhere against her will.

I agree.

She may or may not have been a sex worker (they eat veggies too!), but to me, the shaved pubic hair vs. the other unshaved hair, plus the way her body was left out in the open scream "sex crime" to me. Whether or not she was a prostitute, I think she was either held somewhere against her will for a while or was kidnapped, possibly assaulted, shaved, and killed within a day or two.

Not to extrapolate too much, but that behavior suggests serial killer (or serial killer in the making) to me.

ETA: And she was left there on Valentine's Day. Coincidence or more statement making?

 

[carbuff]

I agree.

She may or may not have been a sex worker (they eat veggies too!), but to me, the shaved pubic hair vs. the other unshaved hair, plus the way her body was left out in the open scream "sex crime" to me. Whether or not she was a prostitute, I think she was either held somewhere against her will for a while or was kidnapped, possibly assaulted, shaved, and killed within a day or two.

Not to extrapolate too much, but that behavior suggests serial killer (or serial killer in the making) to me.

Yeah, I agree with this analysis completely.

Does that give us any clues to figure out who she might be?

 

[jessr927]

I agree.

She may or may not have been a sex worker (they eat veggies too!)

You're right, I just meant that most of the hookers in the area are addicts, often without a permanent address (or homeless), without the luxury of a place to cook vegetables or the choice to diet, when they're mostly living a day to day existence.

but to me, the shaved pubic hair vs. the other unshaved hair, plus the way her body was left out in the open scream "sex crime" to me. Whether or not she was a prostitute, I think she was either held somewhere against her will for a while or was kidnapped, possibly assaulted, shaved, and killed within a day or two.

Not to extrapolate too much, but that behavior suggests serial killer (or serial killer in the making) to me.

The detective said that she had not been sexually assaulted but may have engaged in sexual activity, otherwise, I completely agree with your analysis. I believe the killer had to be from the area to know Carleton Ave., and I wonder if he may have moved away shortly after - I have never heard of another crime like this happening in the surrounding areas.

 

[FiveFelines]

Yeah, I agree with this analysis completely.

Does that give us any clues to figure out who she might be?

Unfortunately, probably not. But let's break it down.

- She's in an age range associated with sex work, dancing, or even just night-clubbing. From what I've read here, this area of MV was known for prostitutes, clubs, etc., back then.

- She ate broccoli. Either she was relatively health conscious/watching her weight, ate what was around, or was fed the broccoli by her captor. (If we go by the theory that she was held for a period of time, it makes sense that he would have had to have fed her that—not sure how long stomach contents last.)

- She was probably punched/hit in the face (going by her wound) and restrained. That's not a crime of passion; that's disabling someone and then tying them up. I don't think she knew her killer very well or at all.

- She had cocaine in her system. If she was held for a while, she could have been given it by her captor. Otherwise, could point to either casual "party" use or an addiction. Would be nice to know how much she used.

- Fake nails. Cared about her appearance, whether just because she liked manicures or because they improved her looks for her job (sex work, dancer, etc., as well as beautician).

- Unshaven armpits, legs, eyebrows. From a culture that places less importance on this, or didn't have the opportunity to shave, either because she was held captive or lived on the street. But if you have time/resources for manicures, you'd think you would have time/resources for some shaving or tweezing.

- Shaved pubic area. Not done by her, IMO. If she did it herself, I'm guessing it was job-related.

I'd guess she was either a sex worker or an exotic dancer, but not in MV, and not living on the street. Or simply a "party girl" type who met the wrong man when she was out partying. I think her killer is from the area but that she didn't know him well or at all.

Of course, taking off my "Criminal Minds" hat, I'm not sure this gets us any closer to knowing her identity. :banghead:

 

[reasypeasy]

Unfortunately, probably not. But let's break it down.

- Shaved pubic area. Not done by her, IMO. If she did it herself, I'm guessing it was job-related.

If her killer did it or forced her to do it, 3 possible reasons. He liked it better that way for what he was doing to her, he wanted to make sure police would find none of his hairs when they combed her out, it fits in with the ritualistic display of the body.