Dark Minds Episode on the LISK airing 4/23

[TobyTera]

Okay now more than ever I have some logistical questions about Ocean Parkway because I'm not a local....

1 What's left of the dumping ground/memorial sites? Like daily since all of the heat from this case has died down can anybody just pull up to the side of the road and stop and it's just as deserted as it was back in the beginning when it made it such a prime dumping ground for the killer? I know someone said the crosses have been removed so what is marking the specific spot now? Would it be just that easy again for the killer to re-visit the same as he always did? If access is easy I think it's a given that the LISK is back to his old habits and he's the one leaving the dolls.

2. When/where was the Barbie doll placed and found? Was it at the memorial site? Further down the parkway? I ask because it was significant to me that the time out dolls were placed in 2012 right at the girls crosses. It was 2 years after the bodies were discovered. It seems to me that when his former perfect dumping ground got hot and he couldn't use it anymore as a dump site he started to place tokens of his odd affections there..like dolls (and possibly that gasket near Megan's doll. That's still strange to me too) If he had to pause doing any new kills he was itching for something so he placed the dolls to re-live it/spark attention. As much as it probably bothers him that he can't do any new kills right now, he seems to also crave attention. So I think the dolls help him drag out older kills. Plus we know he likes to watch his old kills because one of the only things made public from the calls he said to Melissa's sister "I'm going to watch your sisters body rot" This is very common for serial killers. It really reminds me of the documentary special Dave Reikhart did, the detective that caught Gary Ridgeway the Green River Killer...he said it was clear by the bodies that Ridgeway was re-visiting old kills and dump sites they just couldn't catch him. This was among the first questions he asked him in interrogation about re-living and re-visiting.

3. If the Barbie doll was found prior to 2012 or after the time out dolls in 2012 it might help fall into his pattern of what he is trying to communicate since the killings. Did he leave this doll with the bodies when he buried them? Or did he return to place it there as a symbol/message of sorts. I think he is trying to claim his kills by showing the barbie in a simliar way to how the bodies were dumped....as serial killers are known to take pride in their killings even after bodies are found.

2. Who discovered and what did they do with it? LE, family member, local? Still bugs me that irresponsible LE left the time out dolls in the rain. I hope they didn't botch the barbie doll too :tsktsk:


Thanks for sharing all of this info, Mainegirl. I know it's a big risk for you and appreciate you willing to discuss this new information.

I'm sure I will have more coherent thoughts on all of this new info once I have had time to really think it over. This case has been the same cold re-hashing of old facts for so long it's nice to finally have more to piece together than just the irrelevant drama of oak beach that is not going to lead to this case being solved. Pieces like this are.

 

[TobyTera]

I'm not a killer lol so to me, if I placed a body somewhere it would scare the crap out of me and I wouldn't be caught dead there again myself. I would be paranoid, I wouldn't be proud of my kill but then again I'm not a serial killer.

We can't apply personal logic to the risk taking that the killer would or wouldn't take because none of us have those same instincts. We would be afraid to get caught, but for a killer they are wired different. That's why when Phelps talks to Raven and 13, they are able to relate. I think the killer has shown a lot of risky behavior by the phone calls and dumping all bodies in one place. He even wants to connect kills placing unsolved Manorville body parts on Oak Beach like Jessica Taylor. To me, I would be afraid to make a phone call even if I thought it couldn't be traced I would fear a recording of it existing. The killer risked all of that to contact Melissa's sister. He is a risk taker. He seems to thrive well on adrenaline from risks.

Even though all common sense would say don't show up at your dump site again, killers are known to have highs and lows. They can be arrogant, egotistical, and highly intelligent. They can also slip up because of those same tendancies and lack common sense like we have. We wouldn't place dolls, but a killer might not be able to help himself returning and he convinces himself it's okay because his ego may tell him he was smart enough to not leave evidence on the dolls or be seen. It's also pretty clear that LE has made a fool of themselves botching the Shannan Gilbert investigation. And if it's true about them leaving the dolls out in the rain...well, why should the killer fear them? He probably laughs at them and their stupidity.

I'm not saying for sure the dolls were by the killer because obviously we don't know anything for sure. But I am saying, it's all too symbolic to just brush off right now, this early in their discovery.

 

[DizzeeSpellz]

I have always wondered about the following:

Maureen went missing in 2007, Melissa in 2009, Megan and Amber in 2010. Were they placed there just like that or has he placed them there all at once sometime in 2010, moving them from someplace else? Because what I'm wondering about is if he has used that area to discard human remains and was very familiar with the area, would he have known there might be activity -like a search- going on because of SG's disappearance? Because he has ATLEAST placed Megan and Amber there AFTER SG's disappearance. To me it always seemed as if he expected al lthose others remains would be stumbled upon because of this activity and therefor quickly moved those 4 sets of remains there at some point.. Just a thought.

If so, I don't think he got a big scare because of the finds. I do think he spend some time right after being very anxious as to the waiting out whether something would lead to him, which has seemingly not happened as far as we all know.

 

[Just K]

Before I forget:
It is interesting that the clothes are red, white and blue. It is also interesting that not only did the doll at Amber's site have stuffing coming out of it's mouth but it appears as if the left arm is shorter than the right and this doll HAS A FACE.
It is the only doll whose face is uncovered.

Did any of the other three dolls have faces under the hands covering the faces?

The doll at Melissa's marker, did not have a hat or did it blow off?

IMO, there was a specific reason that the dolls were positioned differently for each site. A well meaning person would have left them all the same way.
Instead they are face forward, faced away, face forward and faced away.
The doll left at MBB's is the only one lying flat and with the hands covering the face. It is also the only one in a dress.

Were the dolls held up or in place by that florist wire?
Finally, it appears that there are white candles left at the site and red candles. Maureen-white, Melissa-red, Megan-red, Amber- can't see the color.

What is the unmarked yellow post with flowers, a candle and the red reeds behind Maureen's marker. It has a white candle.

 

[Redbird]

I was just thinking about Amber! It has occurred to me that the person was sending a message about Amber and it is unlikely a prankster would have done this. This does give it away IMO that the killer left the dolls there.

 

[fred&edna]

I have always wondered about the following:

Maureen went missing in 2007, Melissa in 2009, Megan and Amber in 2010. Were they placed there just like that or has he placed them there all at once sometime in 2010, moving them from someplace else? Because what I'm wondering about is if he has used that area to discard human remains and was very familiar with the area, would he have known there might be activity -like a search- going on because of SG's disappearance? Because he has ATLEAST placed Megan and Amber there AFTER SG's disappearance. To me it always seemed as if he expected al lthose others remains would be stumbled upon because of this activity and therefor quickly moved those 4 sets of remains there at some point.. Just a thought.

If so, I don't think he got a big scare because of the finds. I do think he spend some time right after being very anxious as to the waiting out whether something would lead to him, which has seemingly not happened as far as we all know.

BBM... This has been discussed before but I'm not sure where previous WS discussion threads on this aspect are located. I could be very wrong but I "think" there may be additional (although very minimal - particularly minimal with regard to info that was released to the public) evidence to suggest that the bodies of the GB4 victims might have been held/stored before being discarded. I don't know how helpful it would be to review any previously related discussions, but like everything else... can it really do any harm? Maybe "older" WS members active on this case can offer some thoughts? Or maybe they won't as many seem (understandably) tired of rehashing... I'll leave that choice to them.

 

[Redbird]

I do remember there was some evidence that the bodies were moved there from another location. I don't remember how this came about. I also remember a person on another forum discussing the fact that the city worked on the marsh where SG was found. This person thought the bodies were originally left there to rot and decompose and then were moved because of the impending work that was planned for that area. If I am wrong about this maybe someone can correct me. But I do remember us trying to find a person or place where bodies could be stored.

 

[Redbird]

ADDED THOUGHTS: I think somehow LE gave out the information in the beginning that the bodies had been moved to Oak Parkway from another location and some of them were moved at the same time. We came up with a theory that part of the MO for the killer was to let or facilitate the bodies decomposing completely to remove evidence so we should be looking for someone who would have a knowledge of decomposition and have a place to refrigerate and store the bodies for a long period of time. This person would have to have some money to be able to do this.

 

[Just K]

Dolls as a Symbolic Gesture: The word doll has so many connotations.

All dolled up- dressed up.
A doll, as in "she was a doll" - sweet, kind or pretty girl/woman.
Playing with dolls... a toy, something to toy with... a plaything...
The band the New York Dolls.
Guys and Dolls - the iconic play.
Voodoo Dolls
Stuffed Dolls
Doll Collectors
Barbie Doll: an icon, an unrealistic ideal woman, fake or plastic, etc

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doll

IMO, there is a message sent by leaving dolls and by dressing them all in coveralls except for the doll left at Maureen's marker. BTW, the bottoms of the feet of that doll were facing East and something seems to have been drawn on the white soles of the shoes.

 

[DizzeeSpellz]

I remember Melissa Barthelemy's mom say on a show that she felt like he held her for some time and also Dormer in the new interviews I think mentioned that they believe he keeps his victims for a period of time before killing them. To do this he would need 'time' and 'a space' to do so. Also since Jeff Martina, Melissa's stepfather said that he told Amanda that he's going to watch her body rot, and Lost Girls says that he told her: I'm watching her body rot - I don't know which of those would be the correct thing what he said, but it comes down to the same thing indicated to me that he keeps the bodies for some time as well.. I don't necessarily believe he has 'knowledge' of this process because it could ALSO mean he had them in a spot where he could visit to 'watch them rot'. But I always thought he had places MMMA there at the same time because of the burlap really and the close range some were in. I think he just had burlap on his hands around that time for whatever reason - if they were placed there time apart it would indicate he has burlap on his hands regularly or something but I don't think he does.

I'm sorry btw if people have to go rehash for me, I've read up on the case more to be able to join in but I'm sure some things that must have been discussed that I'm not aware of!

ADDED Question: This barbie doll. It would be interesting to know 'how' this doll was found? I mean it could very well have been thrown in there for whatever reason by whoever at some point right?

 

[TobyTera]

Possible odd question...because I didn't notice until Just K mentioned that the left arm of Amber's doll is shorter than the right and then it clicked after re-watching dark minds episode again trying to pick up more info....when discussing Jessica Taylor's dismembered body Phelps said "I pray to god she was unconscious when the dismembering took place".... I found that odd. He didn't say dead or that the dismembering took place post-mortem. He said he hoped she was "unconscious". I also have heard about the theory that the killer held the victims for some time before killing them and that the calls to amanda are supposedly very graphic with torture details. Torture doesn't always have to be sexual though that could be part of it.

What if he's trying to say amber's mouth is being gagged something stuffed into it rather than stuffing falling out of it to keep her quiet? And the shorter arm signifies dismemberment. Wether they were dead or alive during the dismembering only LE would know from how they were disposed of and the killer. I wonder what clues were specific to the Barbie doll that match the burials and aside from wrapped in burlap was it showing any type of dismemberment.

 

[DizzeeSpellz]

I don't think we should focus on those dolls in that extend that every little detail is being seen as a possible message, since it might not even be the work of the killer and we don't know as to how the remains were exactly found altho it is speculated there was dismemberment in Melissa's case right? But I mean, the stuffing at the mouth of Ambers doll etc is interesting but I don't think a shorter arm or a little has much meaning without knowing the details and is very loose speculation, IMO.

I for one are very interested in all the known dialogue from the phonecall to Amanda tho, there's no thread mainly for the phonecalls?

 

[Redbird]

I don't think any of the GB4 were dismembered. I think that idea came about because they missed one of the girl's bones when they were collecting the remains (maybe animals had carried it off?), found it later and gave it to the family. Don't remember which family, but they were upset.

 

[fred&edna]

I've always found Melissa Barthelemy's thread so very interesting... particularly as it relates to the phones calls to her family and JTerry... and on page 1 of that thread I believe that's where there's a comment by MB's mother stating the police contacted her with info that another part of her daughter's remains were located.

Link to MB's thread:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Some related news stories (a few with still active links) are very informative

 

[DizzeeSpellz]

I've also always been interested in the phonecalls. The 'quotes' from the calls to Amanda. How he would hang up the times Lynn answered the phone, but one call to Lynn where he claimed to be with LE. How he'd allow Amanda to ask a question and he'd answer back and just the 'quotes' from what he said. JTerry claimed to have gotten, what, 30+ phonecalls? I've always doubted all that for some reason.. Altho one or more calls were traced to a burner phone registered to one Mickey Mouse if I'm not mistaken. He used Melissa's phone to contact Amanda and Lynn. Megan left her phone in the hotel apparently and Amber didn't take hers. Has Maureen's family EVER been contacted that we know of, since she did carry her phone?

 

[Redbird]

I've always found Melissa Barthelemy's thread so very interesting... particularly as it relates to the phones calls to her family and JTerry... and on page 1 of that thread I believe that's where there's a comment by MB's mother stating the police contacted her with info that another part of her daughter's remains were located.

Link to MB's thread:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Some related news stories (a few with still active links) are very informative

We use initials and there are so many M's I can't keep them straight. So it was Melissa. Melissa's aunt heard about the bone being sent and jumped to the conclusion she had been dismemebered. She made excited comments to the media that got people confused and it had to be corrected that Melissa was not dismembered.

 

[Clem Snide]

I don't think we should focus on those dolls in that extend that every little detail is being seen as a possible message, since it might not even be the work of the killer and we don't know as to how the remains were exactly found altho it is speculated there was dismemberment in Melissa's case right? But I mean, the stuffing at the mouth of Ambers doll etc is interesting but I don't think a shorter arm or a little has much meaning without knowing the details and is very loose speculation, IMO.

I for one are very interested in all the known dialogue from the phonecall to Amanda tho, there's no thread mainly for the phonecalls?

Yeah, it really could be a red herring. Plus, placing dolls at a memorial isn't in itself a crime. The killer probably knows this. Even if LE knows who placed the dolls there, it's virtually meaningless on it's own.

 

[fred&edna]

Yeah, it really could be a red herring. Plus, placing dolls at a memorial isn't in itself a crime. The killer probably knows this. Even if LE knows who placed the dolls there, it's virtually meaningless on it's own.

BBM This is why I thought I missed something important in the show. I mean other than the creepy mechanic's attention to detail, moving his location of business after the bodies were found, and having "time out" dolls in his home... was there something MORE to incriminate him... more to suggest he's the killer?

Wait, I forgot to add that the creepy mechanic was computer-savvy. But, even with that piece of info added... I think it's a mighty big stretch.

 

[LR1]

I've also always been interested in the phonecalls. The 'quotes' from the calls to Amanda. How he would hang up the times Lynn answered the phone, but one call to Lynn where he claimed to be with LE. How he'd allow Amanda to ask a question and he'd answer back and just the 'quotes' from what he said. JTerry claimed to have gotten, what, 30+ phonecalls? I've always doubted all that for some reason.. Altho one or more calls were traced to a burner phone registered to one Mickey Mouse if I'm not mistaken. He used Melissa's phone to contact Amanda and Lynn. Megan left her phone in the hotel apparently and Amber didn't take hers. Has Maureen's family EVER been contacted that we know of, since she did carry her phone?

The calls to Johnny T have only been mentioned in that one article as far as I know and not mentioned in all other media about this case. Its the specificity of his description of them that leads me to believe they did happen.

If I remember correctly Maureen's phone pinged from the area of fire island some days/weeks after she went missing and this is a very interesting aspect of this case, but to my knowledge no calls were made.

Its been my opinion that he would not have dumped all the bodies at one time for a number of reasons. As far as keeping the bodies for "a period of time" I don't think it would be for more than a day or two for obvious reasons.

 

[TobyTera]

To my knowledge, yes, Maureen's voicemail was attempted to be accessed from fire island and whoever tried was unable to crack the voicemail code to listen to them so no calls to her family were made.

I also believe johnny terry was contacted. The way he was taunted and the descriptions of his personal tattoos freaked him out. This always helped back up my theory that the LISK stalked his victims for some time before the kills. I'm pretty sure Melissa's sister visited her very recently to her disappearance and it always stuck out to me that the killer described her look. Amanda is biracial and he commented on that in one of the calls. He had to have seen her.