MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #11

[tlcya]

Y'all just don't know how much Linda & have I tangled on other threads! Nevertheless, I always respect the smart and especially someone who can keep me on my mental toes which Linda ALWAYS does, whether I'm agreeing with her or not!! I like smart people, I like witty people, and I like HONEST people, we don't have to be in mental lock step for any of that.<3



:loveyou:

A big Amen Sister. Sometimes those who challenge us respectfully and with wit are the ones we end up learning the most from and enjoying the discourse with most.

 

[aa9511]

R.I.P. Michael Brown

May God give his family the strength to heal.

The sight of his mother makes my heart ache.

Whatever he might have done or not done, he was not evil. And he was someone's son. He was loved by someone.

R.I.P.

 

[Linda7NJ]

A big Amen Sister. Sometimes those who challenge us respectfully and with wit are the ones we end up learning the most from and enjoying the discourse with most.

Absolutely!

Love being challenged!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[reedus23]

Honestly, I don't.
I'm curious as all get out....and have my suspicions.
But IMO it should have no baring on this case at all. His actions, that day are all that really matter. To me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What if they were for assaulting a police officer? I don't know what they are for certain and don't mean to imply otherwise, but something like that might be relevant.

 

[katydid23]

We just don't have enough information to say either way. MB may have posed a threat at the time of the confrontation but did he pose a threat at the time he was shot dead? Maybe, maybe not. We just don't know. The only thing I think we can say for certain is that MB got to at least a point 35 feet away from the vehicle and that he was shot multiple times from the front. We can surmise or speculate as to whether or not he continued to pose a threat once he was 35 feet away, but I don't think there is any way possible for us to say one way or the other definitively based on the information we know. Personally, I'll wait for more information to be released.

We don't know that he was 35 feet away from the officer when shot. OW was out of his SUV when he was shooting. Do you know where he was standing at the time?

 

[EvilSoup]

That is what really bothers me too. They are making this felon out to be a martyr, a true hero. And all the young black kids look up to him and see all the great stars like Snoop, who came to his grand funeral. And what exactly did he do to deserve this huge televised memorial? He strong-armed a lil old clerk for some bluntwraps, then bum rushed a cop, fought with him in the vehicle over the gun, then was killed in the aftermath. And that makes him a national hero? :no:

I like Snoop Dogg, too, but you refer to him as a great star, while calling MB a felon.

I assume you do not know that Snoop Dogg has quite a checkered past himself?

<modsnip>


I just wonder why Snoop is called a great star and Mike is a felon? It appears they both broke that law, and actually Snoop appears to have Mike beat. IMO, with facts from Michelle Malkin.

 

[Oceans]

Thanks for this. As I recall, Dr.Baden addressed all the issues he had in performing a second autopsy. He deferred to the state autopsy which would clarify the questions that he could not answer due to lack of stipling, trajectory, etc. The family wanted an autopsy right away so that they could know what happened. I believe that Crump and Parks were the ones who hired the questionable analyst Purcells, or whatever his name is. He is not Baden's sidekick. Baden speaks for himself. IMO of course, the state autopsy is the important one. I have not heard that there are any major discrepancies between the two. JUST MY OPINION

I respectfully disagree.

We have not heard from the state autopsy which is the most important one, IMO. There might be major discrepancies between Dr. Baden's autopsy and the states autopsy, IMO.

For instance: the gash in MB's hand. Was it a close range wound caused by the gun while MB was supposedly trying to get a hold of ODW's gun. Dr. Baden can not make a determination as the body has already be washed (in case there is gun-shot residue), Dr. Baden did not have the clothing of MB to determine if there was gun-shot residue or MB's blood on it, caused from a possible close-range shooting. Dr. Baden had no possibility to view and exam the inside of ODW's vehicle (bullet hole, MB's blood, gun-shot residue, other signs of a possible struggle like MB's blood on the window frame).

 

[jjenny]

I will agree that there seems to have been a confrontation at the vehicle. Exactly what that was or how severe it was I don't know yet. Obviously, there have been rumors, leaks, friends of friends on radio stations, talk of injuries, talk of no injuries. Unless I missed something that was formally released. As one example, actual medical records recording the exact nature and extent of injuries.

Beyond that, I would respectfully suggest the law is not that clear cut, and rarely is. The law does not require you to be submissive or you'll be shot. It requires that you endanger life or serious physical injury before deadly force can be used. I could be wrong on this point, but I imagine that is the exact decision that a jury would be called upon to determine. An officer simply saying he feared for his life or serious physical injury isn't sufficient all the time. A jury would then determine if that fear was reasonable or not. Again, I just don't know enough facts to determine one way or another if, at the time of the fatal shots, MB posed a danger to life or serious physical injury.

More thorough reports should be able to shed more light on that. For example was MB charging at the time? How far away he was at the time of the various shots? Had MB traveled 55 feet, to turn around and charge to within 35 feet of the car? Where the officer was at the time of the various shots? I'll simply wait and see what further information is released.

Actually, a cop can legally shoot a fleeing felon, if that felon is dangerous. And for civilians, the law doesn't require a serious physical injury before deadly force can be used. One has to be in reasonable fear of serious physical injury in order to use deadly force, one doesn't have to already have a serious physical injury.
And in some states like TX, deadly force can be used to protect property (no injury needed at all).

 

[Linda7NJ]

What if they were for assaulting a police officer? I don't know what they are for certain and don't mean to imply otherwise, but something like that might be relevant.

It would be interesting. Psychologically speaking...

but I don't think it would be fair to consider that when determining if this shooting was justified or not. Only his actions that day are important to me.

IMO




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[reedus23]

Well, luckily we do have one very highly solid and believable witness - a well trained police officer with a spotless police record.

I really don't mean to sound snarky here but how do you know he is believable? I haven't even seen him speak yet much less give his version of events. How do you know he was well trained? He might have been, but I haven't seen anything to tell me what his training involved. All I do know is he came from a department that had to be shut down amid controversy. But I don't even know if that is where he got his training. Spotless records help, but don't tell the whole story. There are a lot of thieves out there with spotless records too. I only say all this only because again, I think judgments on both sides are just being made too quick with too little information.

 

[tlcya]

We don't know that he was 35 feet away from the officer when shot. OW was out of his SUV when he was shooting. Do you know where he was standing at the time?

Good point, we do not know if OW was stationary or moving toward his suspect as he was firing.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I like Snoop Dogg, too, but you refer to him as a great star, while calling MB a felon.

I assume you do not know that Snoop Dogg has quite a checkered past himself?

<modsnip>


I just wonder why Snoop is called a great star and Mike is a felon? It appears they both broke that law, and actually Snoop appears to have Mike beat. IMO, with facts from Michelle Malkin.

I suppose there is Snoop the felon and Snoop the artist. People tend to separate the two.
I can't.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[reedus23]

We don't know that he was 35 feet away from the officer when shot. OW was out of his SUV when he was shooting. Do you know where he was standing at the time?

That's why I didn't say how far he was from the officer. I referenced distance from the vehicle if you re-read my post. I was referencing knowns, not unknowns.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I will agree that there seems to have been a confrontation at the vehicle. Exactly what that was or how severe it was I don't know yet. Obviously, there have been rumors, leaks, friends of friends on radio stations, talk of injuries, talk of no injuries. Unless I missed something that was formally released. As one example, actual medical records recording the exact nature and extent of injuries.

Beyond that, I would respectfully suggest the law is not that clear cut, and rarely is. The law does not require you to be submissive or you'll be shot. It requires that you endanger life or serious physical injury before deadly force can be used. I could be wrong on this point, but I imagine that is the exact decision that a jury would be called upon to determine. An officer simply saying he feared for his life or serious physical injury isn't sufficient all the time. A jury would then determine if that fear was reasonable or not. Again, I just don't know enough facts to determine one way or another if, at the time of the fatal shots, MB posed a danger to life or serious physical injury.

More thorough reports should be able to shed more light on that. For example was MB charging at the time? How far away he was at the time of the various shots? Had MB traveled 55 feet, to turn around and charge to within 35 feet of the car? Where the officer was at the time of the various shots? I'll simply wait and see what further information is released.

I find the MO law concerning this very interesting. It has a lot of helpful information about how the GJ works also.

So lets say for argument sake that MB did assault Officer Wilson. Officer Wilson would absolutely know that MB had just committed a class A felony because he was the one being attacked. If this is true and I believe that it is.....when MB assaulted OW he became a suspect in a Class A Felony.

So when DW tried to stop MB when he tried to escape he knew he had just committed a felony. At that time MB had turned into a suspect, imo. He was no longer just someone walking in the middle of the street but his actions were felonious toward DW.

If the jury follows the law... as they will take an oath to do... by the MO law they will find the deadly force reasonable, imo. DW knew that he had already been attacked by MB and it is reasonable to believe he could go on to attack others or MB could even return to attack him.

Even if DW didn't know about the strong armed robbery, which I am not convinced he didn't know by that time, then it does show that MB seem to have a big chip on his shoulder that day and was aggressive toward others. Anyone that assaults a police officer must be apprehended and that is what DW was trying to do. IMO

What does Missouri law provide on police use of deadly force?
Missouri law gives police officers broad power to use force to make an arrest or prevent a felon’s escape. It states: “A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only …. when he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested (a) has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or (b) is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or (c) may otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.”

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/whats-grand-jury-how-will-it-work-ferguson-case

So MB fits the law both in A and B.


And if it is true that MB attempted to escape but turned around and came back toward OW then IMO he had every right to shoot him. He had already been attacked by MB once so he knew he was dangerous.

 

[cady]

JMO Somebody said OW is communicating? With whom? STARR you usually are up on this stuff do you know anything about it? Also, any more about "Josie" aka Jill?? Thanks. JMO

 

[reedus23]

Actually, a cop can legally shoot a fleeing felon, if that felon is dangerous. And for civilians, the law doesn't require a serious physical injury before deadly force can be used. One has to be in reasonable fear of serious physical injury in order to use deadly force, one doesn't have to already have a serious physical injury.
And in some states like TX, deadly force can be used to protect property (no injury needed at all).

I agree that serious physical injury did not have to have occurred prior to use of deadly force. If my post read as such it's because of my inarticulate use of the English language. As you said, a person such as MB must otherwise endanger life or serious physical injury... meaning must be a threat to life or a threat to cause serious physical injury as I understand the statute.

 

[katydid23]

I like Snoop Dogg, too, but you refer to him as a great star, while calling MB a felon.

I assume you do not know that Snoop Dogg has quite a checkered past himself?

<modsnip>

I just wonder why Snoop is called a great star and Mike is a felon? It appears they both broke that law, and actually Snoop appears to have Mike beat. IMO, with facts from Michelle Malkin.

I referred to SNoop as a 'great star' in context of the young kids watching the funeral. THEY see him as a 'great star'--not me. Although I do like some of his songs.

 

[EvilSoup]

By 'prison' I think it means he is in hiding, all alone, like he was in prison.

Thank you. That makes sense. I guess that's how rumors get started. I thought it crazy that OW would be in prison, but like I said, I am waaay behind and saw that in a post....

 

[katydid23]

That's why I didn't say how far he was from the officer. I referenced distance from the vehicle if you re-read my post. I was referencing knowns, not unknowns.

But what does it matter how far he was from the vehicle? That makes no difference if the officer was not standing beside it.

 

[Muffet]

I will agree that there seems to have been a confrontation at the vehicle. Exactly what that was or how severe it was I don't know yet. Obviously, there have been rumors, leaks, friends of friends on radio stations, talk of injuries, talk of no injuries. Unless I missed something that was formally released. As one example, actual medical records recording the exact nature and extent of injuries.

Beyond that, I would respectfully suggest the law is not that clear cut, and rarely is. The law does not require you to be submissive or you'll be shot. It requires that you endanger life or serious physical injury before deadly force can be used. I could be wrong on this point, but I imagine that is the exact decision that a jury would be called upon to determine. An officer simply saying he feared for his life or serious physical injury isn't sufficient all the time. A jury would then determine if that fear was reasonable or not. Again, I just don't know enough facts to determine one way or another if, at the time of the fatal shots, MB posed a danger to life or serious physical injury.

More thorough reports should be able to shed more light on that. For example was MB charging at the time? How far away he was at the time of the various shots? Had MB traveled 55 feet, to turn around and charge to within 35 feet of the car? Where the officer was at the time of the various shots? I'll simply wait and see what further information is released.

I agree that we can't know everything a jury would need to know, and I guess a bombshell is always possible that could change things.

I can't personally conceive of anything that would do so, based on what we do know, including admissions by the Brown's attorney, and all the great information and analysis on yesterday's posts and links.

We shall see. I just hope it doesn't take too long, because I'm spending way too much time reading up and posting, and I'm afraid they're not gonna let me present a single bit of it in court! :cry: