Trial Discussion Thread #52 - 14.11.9, Day 41 ~announcement of the verdict~

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atthelake said:
:gasp: the first article is 109 pages! Cliff notes needed as it's 2:09 and I didn't go to sleep yet...thinking 3:30 a:m would be a short session and I would be :eek:fftobed: at 4:30 am
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You only need to read a couple of pages!
 
DILLIGAF said:
BBM So the PT can appeal the verdict? Is there no double jeopardy rule in SA?
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Yes there is but in appealing the verdict they would be appealing on a point of law and an appeal is not a re-trial.
 
PrimeSuspect said:
aptopix_south_africa_pistorius_trial_34108993.jpg


http://o.canada.com/news/world/world-world/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-not-guilty-of-murder-512263


Reeva's dad looking at OP yesterday. So heartbreaking for Mr and Mrs Steenkamp, what must they be thinking/saying? :(
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"Soon, you shall be a blur"
 
Mr Fossil said:
I've seen something somewhere about this. Double jeopardy does apply in South Africa. I'll do some digging.

ETA: This report is interesting, see 2.14 onwards. http://www.justice.gov.za/salrc/reports/r_prj73_appeal_2000dec.pdf

This article is also interesting: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/oscar-pistorius-judge-error-prosecutors-article-1.1936371
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atthelake said:
:gasp: the first article is 109 pages! Cliff notes needed as it's 2:09 and I didn't go to sleep yet...thinking 3:30 a:m would be a short session and I would be :eek:fftobed: at 4:30 am
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From Mr F's link, yes there is the Double Jeopardy principle in SA.

Excerpt -

If a trial in unfair, an appeal by the DPP cannot make
it fair and it cannot lead to a conviction.

The Commission concedes that the right to appeal on questions of fact
should be limited to those cases where a miscarriage of justice occurred on the
evidence before the court. The intention is not to give the state a second bite of the
cherry. The state cannot rectify its own errors on appeal.

http://www.justice.gov.za/salrc/reports/r_prj73_appeal_2000dec.pdf
 
PrimeSuspect said:
From Mr F's link, yes there is the Double Jeopardy principle in SA.

Excerpt -

If a trial in unfair, an appeal by the DPP cannot make
it fair and it cannot lead to a conviction.

The Commission concedes that the right to appeal on questions of fact
should be limited to those cases where a miscarriage of justice occurred on the
evidence before the court. The intention is not to give the state a second bite of the
cherry. The state cannot rectify its own errors on appeal.

http://www.justice.gov.za/salrc/reports/r_prj73_appeal_2000dec.pdf
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Many thanks, I knew I had read that but I have read tomes in the last few days and couldn't recall exactly where. You are a star!
 
Oh my! I didn't realise that the sentencing will be at another hearing :scared:
 
Pretoria Rekord ‏@RekordNewspaper 3m
Media and public waiting to get in courtroom. Proceedings expected to start at 09 : 30 #OscarPistorius

andrew harding ‏@BBCAndrewH 7m
Meanwhile, Reeva Steenkamp's parents are already back in court and journalist scrum awaits #OscarPistorius arrival outside.

BBC Africa ‏@BBCAfrica 4m
RT @BBCAndrewH Reeva Steenkamp's parents are already back in court and journalist scrum awaits #OscarPistorius arrival outside.
 
Mr Fossil said:
Yes there is but in appealing the verdict they would be appealing on a point of law and an appeal is not a re-trial.
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According to South African law, intent in the form of dolus eventualis means it is enough to find someone guilty of murder if the perpetrator objectively foresees the possibility of his or her act causing death and persists regardless of the consequences.

In Pistorius’s case, it would seem that dolus eventualis murder would apply if he had fired four shots into a cubicle that he had known was occupied, aware his actions would kill, regardless of who he thought was in there.

But it is more complicated than that, since Oscar Pistorius was initially put on trial specifically for the murder of Reeva Steenkamp.

If the judge accepts that he thought Reeva Steenkamp was in the bedroom at the point when he shot each bullet - then he could not possibly have foreseen that firing his gun through the door could have killed her.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...fected-the-oscar-pistorius-trial-9726275.html


Now I think I get it. :doh:

The state charged OP with murdering Reeva, if OP assumed Reeva was still in bed he could not know shooting 4 bullets at the toilet door would kill her.

It's only about Reeva.

:confused:
 
PrimeSuspect said:
According to South African law, intent in the form of dolus eventualis means it is enough to find someone guilty of murder if the perpetrator objectively foresees the possibility of his or her act causing death and persists regardless of the consequences.

In Pistorius’s case, it would seem that dolus eventualis murder would apply if he had fired four shots into a cubicle that he had known was occupied, aware his actions would kill, regardless of who he thought was in there.

But it is more complicated than that, since Oscar Pistorius was initially put on trial specifically for the murder of Reeva Steenkamp.

If the judge accepts that he thought Reeva Steenkamp was in the bedroom at the point when he shot each bullet - then he could not possibly have foreseen that firing his gun through the door could have killed her.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...fected-the-oscar-pistorius-trial-9726275.html


Now I think I get it. :doh:

The state charged OP with murdering Reeva, if OP assumed Reeva was still in bed he could not know shooting 4 bullets at the toilet door would kill her.

It's only about Reeva.

:confused:
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Respectfully, I don't agree. The State charged OP will killing "a person, to wit, Reeva"

His indictment reads "In that upon or about 14 February 2013 and at or near 286 Bushwillow Street. Silvberwoods Country Estate, Silver Lakes in the District of Pretoria the accused did unlawfully and intentionally kill a person, to wit, REEVA STEENKAMP, a 29 year old person"


In the Heads of Argument Nel says "Even in the event that the court were to accept the accused’s version, it is submitted with respect that he cannot escape a finding that he acted with dolus eventualis by arming himself and, whilst approaching the “danger”, foresaw the possibility that he may shoot and kill someone but reconciled himself with this possibility by walking into the bathroom and then without objective or subjective cause, fired four shots into a small toilet cubicle whilst anticipating that someone was in the cubicle and likely to be killed."
 
Mr Fossil said:
Respectfully, I don't agree. The State charged OP will killing "a person, to wit, Reeva"

His indictment reads "In that upon or about 14 February 2013 and at or near 286 Bushwillow Street. Silvberwoods Country Estate, Silver Lakes in the District of Pretoria the accused did unlawfully and intentionally kill a person, to wit, REEVA STEENKAMP, a 29 year old person"



In the Heads of Argument Nel says "Even in the event that the court were to accept the accused’s version, it is submitted with respect that he cannot escape a finding that he acted with dolus eventualis by arming himself and, whilst approaching the “danger”, foresaw the possibility that he may shoot and kill someone but reconciled himself with this possibility by walking into the bathroom and then without objective or subjective cause, fired four shots into a small toilet cubicle whilst anticipating that someone was in the cubicle and likely to be killed."
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What does that phrase really mean though. To wit Reeve? Could still only related to reeva who is a person.
 
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