Post sentencing discussion

[Mr Fossil]

As an aside, here's a list of the user locations (countries) that have accessed my Pistorius resources via these forums in the last few days in order of popularity.

United Kingdom, United States, Germany, Australia, Turkey, Canada, Netherlands, Italy, India, South Africa, Belgium, Singapore, Jersey, New Zealand, Philippines, Switzerland, European Union, Ireland, France, Denmark, Japan, Austria

I'm not sure where European Union is supposed to be that it can't be identified as a country.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Now ain't that the truth? One only need peek into the Travis Alexander forum to rest assured that there is little if any gender bias when it comes to a female perpetrator and an adult male victim. A killer is a killer.

Travis wasn't famous. He wasn't a world class athlete. He was simply a 30 year old man hoping to get married and start a family who hooked up with a woman who'd rather kill him than let him go. Yet there have been few to follow that case who don't believe his murder was heinous, cruel, and entirely premeditated. Or that Jodi Arias isn't a lying, malevolent, parasitic monster.

JMO and FWIW

The first televised trial I've watched (on Youtube). My heart breaks whenever I see his picture, the poor guy. :cry:

 

[vansleuths]

~snipped~

Are you referring to the study which was carried out on California mice?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ss-children-likely-grow-angry-turn-drugs.html

"The research, which was carried out on mice, compared the social behaviour and brain anatomy of youngsters with two parents to those growing up with mothers alone".

Yes this study was done with mice. Not sure if you did read the entire article, but I have included a couple of key highlights below. If you are interested in human studies, there are many epidemiological studies that highlight the exact same results.

From the article:

"The team said the findings had direct relevance to human society."

Dr Gobbi said: ‘The behavioural deficits we observed are consistent with human studies of children raised without a father.
‘These children have been shown to have an increased risk for deviant behaviour and in particular, girls have been shown to be at risk for substance abuse.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Re. Johnson and call time I don't have to contribute anything. - Re. the timeline: IF the early shots (out of the window) were between 3:00 and 3:08, Reeva could have been very afraid and told OP, to call for help with his phone (which later disappeared and was replaced with another under the towel, then had deleted the call per Carl) , whomever (police? OP's manager? security?). OP reacted with "no please, please no!", thought "I have to shoot now, sorry, your fault, Reeva" and shot the deadly bullets. Sounds logical.
P.S. The cartridge case, which was found near the corridor between bedroom and bathroom, perhaps was one of the bullets gone out of the window.

Thanks

I think the time when Nhlengethwa (I'm can now spell his name in my sleep I've typed it so many times) hears "no, please, please, no" ties in with OP's reaction after shooting Reeva.

I believe 4 cartridge cases were found, so that would tie in with the number of bullets fired through the toilet door.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Thought, useless: Christo Menelaou has spend that night with Frankie, it seems. Both men heard nothing, and if at all, then only thunderclap.

Question: Carice Viljoen had heard a man's and a woman's voice and told of her thoughts "where is the lady, what happened"? Or was it another witness? I'm confused, sorry. - I would write this special mention into your verrrry excellent excel list.

You're right FG, it was Carice. She gave herself away with revealing her thoughts. Why ever mention a lady unless she heard one. jmo

 

[Mr Fossil]

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan
Nxasana confirms to @eNCAnews that NPA planned Pistorius appeal will centre on Judge's interpretation of dolus eventualis.

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan
NDPP Nxasana on NPA #OscarPistorius appel bid "this isn't about the NPA ego...it is about a principle" @eNCAnews

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan
Nxasana: we would like to believe that another court hearing the same matter..would come to a different conclusion #OscarTrial @eNCAnews

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan
NDPP Nxasana tells @eNCAnews "we are not saying that (Judge Masipa) is wrong or malicious..her application of law wasn't applied correctly"

 

[soozieqtips]

Yes this study was done with mice. Not sure if you did read the entire article, but I have included a couple of key highlights below. If you are interested in human studies, there are many epidemiological studies that highlight the exact same results.

From the article:

"The team said the findings had direct relevance to human society."

Dr Gobbi said: ‘The behavioural deficits we observed are consistent with human studies of children raised without a father.
‘These children have been shown to have an increased risk for deviant behaviour and in particular, girls have been shown to be at risk for substance abuse.

I did read the article, but didn't set any stock by it, as for some reason (?) it failed to mention how many mice were even studied, and also failed to mention the percentage of mice who displayed deviant behaviour when deprived of a father. How long did the study last? Too much information is missing, and you just can't apply this to humans. I have several friends who were brought up by their mother, and none of them are anything other than perfectly normal. The quality of parenting is much more relevant than whether a father is present or not, particularly if the father is violent, or a drunk.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Thanks

I think the time when Nhlengethwa (I'm can now spell his name in my sleep I've typed it so many times) hears "no, please, please, no" ties in with OP's reaction after shooting Reeva.

I believe 4 cartridge cases were found, so that would tie in with the number of bullets fired through the toilet door.

I remember the cartridge on a place, where OP didn't stand while shooting at the toilet door?

 

[Mr Fossil]

I remember the cartridge on a place, where OP didn't stand while shooting at the toilet door?

IIRC OP stood with his back against the wall at the point that the bathroom corridor enters the bathroom itself. So for a cartridge case to land in the corridor and the other 3 to land in the bathroom is quite realistic. I think there was some testimony about this but I can't recall which witness.

 

[vansleuths]

I did read the article, but didn't set any stock by it, as for some reason (?) it failed to mention how many mice were even studied, and also failed to mention the percentage of mice who displayed deviant behaviour when deprived of a father. How long did the study last? Too much information is missing, and you just can't apply this to humans. I have several friends who were brought up by their mother, and none of them are anything other than perfectly normal. The quality of parenting is much more relevant than whether a father is present or not, particularly if the father is violent, or a drunk.

BIB You do realize that the Daily Mail is not a science publication? If you are looking for the scientific method used in this study, the article also addresses that and says that the study was "published in the journal Cerebral Cortex"

I've had my work published in scientific journals and I'll guarantee you that you're not going to get an article published in a journal if it doesn't pass all of the necessary requirements including scientific methods. On top of that, your name is on the line as you are now putting yourself up for peer review once you get published.

So, long story short, while the Daily Mail article may not tell you how many mice were studied, you can go to the journal Cerebral Cortex if you really want more than just the overview that was provided.

But, that is beside the point, this article reaffirms research that was conducted with children with no fathers and there is lots of literature available on this. The correlation is clear.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/23/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius/index.html

A hacker falsely posted on the Twitter account of Oscar Pistorius' older brother Saturday that the South African Olympian was going to do media interviews, a family spokeswoman said.

Carl Pistorius didn't post such a tweet, and he and his sister, Aimee, were canceling all their social media accounts Saturday, said family spokeswoman Janine Hills. All three Pistorius siblings live in South Africa, she said.

On Friday, Oscar Pistorius was freed from jail on $112,000 bail eight days after the shooting death of his model girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, 29.

Pistorius, 26, is charged with premeditated murder in her February 14 death.
Pistorius' brother faces his own charges

"It is most unfortunate that during this sensitive time, someone would choose to hack into Oscar Pistorius older brother, Carl Pistorius' Twitter handle," Hills said in a statement. "Carl did not tweet this afternoon, out of respect to Oscar and Reeva."

Only to remember the incident. :smile: When Carl's twitter account had been hacked, he still was in the posession of OP's cellphone to hack himself ....

 

[jay-jay]

Hi jay-jay,

I think those were .38 that were in the safe and he had .38 firearm on order.

BBM .. ah yes, I remember that now (goodness, there is so much to remember with this case :scared: ) .. so, that just goes to show that ammo was for himself then, and that's just a downright fib he was looking after it for his father (I know that's probably been said a thousand times already!)

While I've got you here, did you see my earlier post (I'll go back and look for it) about the police visits (plural) to the house. I think it was around about p.40.

This one, you mean ..? --> http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...sentencing-discussion&p=11143640#post11143640 .. yes, I did see it .. thanks .. that was an interesting link in your post, I've not read that one before. Interesting to see that they were talking back then of him having smashed Reeva's skull with the cricket bat .. I wonder why that was their first impression as opposed to it having been a shot to the head? (I seem to remember there was some discussion in the early days as to whether he smashed her in the head with the bat first and then shot her in the head to cover up that he had done that). We still don't know what those police visits (plural) were though, sadly.

 

[RosieC]

I'm happy to criticise the State - I think they had far more evidence to play with than was used in court (e.g. they didn't present the phone records correctly IMO).

What I'm saying about forensics is that the Stipps heard two sets of sounds, there were two 'obvious' causes (4 gunshots through toilet door and 3 cricket bat strikes against the toilet door to break it open), so they would conclude perhaps that there is nothing else to look for?

It was Roux who introduced the question about whether the State's case was two sets of gunshots. Nel stood up and after being a bit evasive said that it was the State's case that the shots that killed Reeva were the later sounds. The State has never really committed on what the other set of sounds were AFAIK.

It's true that the state didn't commit to what the first set of sounds were.
a) They couldn't commit if they felt they had no basis for conjecture, and
b) It wasn't essential because it wasn't it wasn't part of the act of murder as far as the state was concerned. It could have been useful evidence of an argument prior to the shooting but only if the state could back up the claim.
Can you imagine the mincemeat Roux would have made of the state if it claimed that both sets of bangs were shots but they didn't have solid evidence?
I agree that Nel sounded evasive about the first set of bangs, which was a mistake. All he needed to say was the state wasn't there, so couldn't be sure, but the earlier "bangs" were not the fatal gunshots. That he HAD to account for this was also a distraction.
However, as the state could prove that as the second sounds which occurred at 03:15 were the gunshots, then the first set of sounds must have been the cricket bat strikes.
This would have been a very crafty tactic in my view. Defence couldn't claim it COULDN'T be true. Vermuelen testified that only a crack through bullet hole D must have been later than the shots. And defence already agreed that cricket bat strikes sounded like gunshots.
I think it would have put Roux on the back foot, especially as Oscar had just settled out of court on a case that involved bashing a door down in a rage (allegedly), in fact his heavier front door (from recollection). I would have loved to hear how Oscar would have dealt with this.
As to the defence claim that Oscar broke down the door after the shooting - assuming it was locked - the door would have been damaged already. That could have involved merely prizing it open near bullet hole D, which is at a join.

 

[soozieqtips]

Pistorius is not a young boy, he is a young adult, in his 20s and as such, he is responsible for his own decisions. None of us were around the Pistorius dinner table. What's to say that uncle Arnold didn't tell OP to tone it down a notch but with OP's fame, money and lifestyle, he simply told uncle Arnold to shove it.

BIB - The judge certainly didn't seem to think he was an adult. Why did she address Uncle Arnold and tell him to make sure OP didn't get into any further trouble, and not OP himself? He may physically be an adult, but emotionally he acts like a teenager. Arnold Pistorius would have had some hand in his development, wouldn't he?

 

[soozieqtips]

BIB You do realize that the Daily Mail is not a science publication? If you are looking for the scientific method used in this study, the article also addresses that and says that the study was "published in the journal Cerebral Cortex"

I've had my work published in scientific journals and I'll guarantee you that you're not going to get an article published in a journal if it doesn't pass all of the necessary requirements including scientific methods. On top of that, your name is on the line as you are now putting yourself up for peer review once you get published.

So, long story short, while the Daily Mail article may not tell you how many mice were studied, you can go to the journal Cerebral Cortex if you really want more than just the overview that was provided.

But, that is beside the point, this article reaffirms research that was conducted with children with no fathers and there is lots of literature available on this. The correlation is clear.

BIB - on mice with no fathers. You left out the fact it was a study on mice in your original post, and didn't provide a link, which is why I had to look for it. We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'm not adding anything else.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

IIRC OP stood with his back against the wall at the point that the bathroom corridor enters the bathroom itself. So for a cartridge case to land in the corridor and the other 3 to land in the bathroom is quite realistic. I think there was some testimony about this but I can't recall which witness.

I don't want to discuss, only tell you, I thought of a wrong angle between firearm and toilet door re. that cartridge.

I'm also convinced, that almost nothing is true, OP had testified.

 

[jay-jay]

I did read the article, but didn't set any stock by it, as for some reason (?) it failed to mention how many mice were even studied, and also failed to mention the percentage of mice who displayed deviant behaviour when deprived of a father. How long did the study last? Too much information is missing, and you just can't apply this to humans. I have several friends who were brought up by their mother, and none of them are anything other than perfectly normal. The quality of parenting is much more relevant than whether a father is present or not, particularly if the father is violent, or a drunk.

Absolutely, I was just going to say this (BBM) .. there are many murderers who grow up with two parents and who seemed to have lived a relatively normal life, and some of them may not have had such a normal life .. the majority of people who have grown up with just one parent, or who have had otherwise disruptive childhoods (sexually abused, etc, etc), grow up to be perfectly normal human beings. Murderers are just wired up wrong from the start, imo, regardless of their backgrounds. I think it's just making excuses for them to say that it has something to do with the way the were brought up, although I do think that the type of facilitating/enabling behaviour of his family contributes to it, but it's got to be there in the mind in the first place in order to build upon.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

BIB - The judge certainly didn't seem to think he was an adult. Why did she address Uncle Arnold and tell him to make sure OP didn't get into any further trouble, and not OP himself? He may physically be an adult, but emotionally he acts like a teenager*. Arnold Pistorius would have had some hand in his development, wouldn't he?

* a difficult trainable teenager :tantrum::banghead::innocent::behindbar:doorhide::tears:anic::dramaqueen:ullhair::sigh::bigfight::stormingmad::rocker::furious:verreaction::badmood::bombshell: - all him (not me).

 

[patCee]

BIB You do realize that the Daily Mail is not a science publication? If you are looking for the scientific method used in this study, the article also addresses that and says that the study was "published in the journal Cerebral Cortex"

I've had my work published in scientific journals and I'll guarantee you that you're not going to get an article published in a journal if it doesn't pass all of the necessary requirements including scientific methods. On top of that, your name is on the line as you are now putting yourself up for peer review once you get published.

So, long story short, while the Daily Mail article may not tell you how many mice were studied, you can go to the journal Cerebral Cortex if you really want more than just the overview that was provided.

But, that is beside the point, this article reaffirms research that was conducted with children with no fathers and there is lots of literature available on this. The correlation is clear.

BBM

The trouble with research, particularly re human development, is that there are so many factors to be considered. That is why for most studies saying one thing, there are invariably others saying something different.

This study looks at the numerous factors that need to be considered in child development, and despite some of the numerous and sometimes negative issues involved in some parenting circumstances, points out that most children grow up reasonably well balanced.

http://www.clasp.org/resources-and-publications/states/0086.pdf

Another study of same sex parenting shows good outcomes for children, despite lacking a male or female parent.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/06/05/2106751/same-sex-parenting-study/

Research into children's outcomes is useful for resources/legislation, but it is by no means the whole story. We humans are complex and so are the circumstances we live in. JMO

 

[vansleuths]

BIB - The judge certainly didn't seem to think he was an adult. Why did she address Uncle Arnold and tell him to make sure OP didn't get into any further trouble, and not OP himself? He may physically be an adult, but emotionally he acts like a teenager. Arnold Pistorius would have had some hand in his development, wouldn't he?

BIB I shake my head on this as well. The judge should have addressed OP directly as he is an adult with no mental defect.