Verdict watch! ** GUILTY **

[No_Stone_Unturned]

NEWSTALK1010 ‏@newstalk1010 22m22 minutes ago

JUST IN: Judge at Luka #Magnotta trial says yes, a personality disporder is a disease of the mind. Jury now continues to deliberate

 

[Kamille]

Okay so here is the question...

Is personality disorder a disease of the mind as a matter of law?

Answer: Yes

They're gonna get this wrong. I can feel it.

 

[Kamille]

This is exactly why an NCR decision should be taken out of the hands of a laymen jury and put into the hands of professional doctors and legal minds. This is very important. It is the difference between knowing this manipulative monster is off the streets for good or whether we should be expecting him to crop up on the internet in a few years time.

MOO

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Shuyee Lee @sleeCJAD · 26m 26 minutes ago

Judge steps out of the courtroom to yell at someone out there to be quiet because they're still proceeding with a case. #Magnotta :lol:

 

[raffielle]

While we're all waiting, what do you all think about the calls from JLs phone to Vancouver hotels & hostels? Did LM go to JLs apartment after the murder, access his computer and phone to delete any contact with him? We know JL responded to LMs Craigslist ad but there was no record of contact on any of JLs or LMs devices. Would it be even possible to do this? Surely there must be a way to dig this info up, or was LE just so confident that they didn't bother because of effort and expense?

All of this I found strange, not only the circumstances but the fact that there seems to be no investigation into this, like it didn’t matter to them.

Personally, I find extremely hard to imagine in this day and age that someone would leave their home without their cell phone, now factor in that they were meeting someone they had never met off of a craigslist ad (which everyone knows is a bit sketchy) – no way he left his phone at home.

My hunch is that LM went to his apartment to delete any trace of himself from JL’s computer and he left the phone there as well. The calls to Vancouver were to throw people off maybe make them think he left for Vancouver, maybe LM was telling the truth (for once) when he said that JL expressed interest about going to Vancouver and his friends would think he just left.

Remember LM thought that all the trash would’ve been picked up, so he was probably thinking it would be weeks if not months before anyone would’ve gone into his apartment. He had no real friends or family that would’ve checked up on him but JL did.

Okay I’m just having fun speculating.

 

[DataMonkey]

You are also privy to a lot more information than the jury. Also your opinion may have been swayed by the likes of Christie Blatchford or whomever you happened to have gleaned your information from.

Yes, I do have slightly more information available than the jury. I have not been swayed by what I have read in the media. Like you stated previously, this case is to conclude if LM was criminally responsible or not. I personally do believe that he knew exactly what he was doing at the time of the act - and that is what this all boils down to. Magnotta clearly does have a past of mental illness, but all that is irrelevant here. All that matters is .. 'Did he know that it was wrong to kill JL'. I think he did. We all have our views, it's good that we have such forums that we can share them

 

[DataMonkey]

Okay so here is the question...

Is personality disorder a disease of the mind as a matter of law?

Answer: Yes

They're gonna get this wrong. I can feel it.

No, don't say that! This case has got to be one of the most disturbing in history - in every sense! I have found the whole trial absolutely bizarre!

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Lighting a candle for the jury to make the right decision:

 

[flash_over]

I believe that this may be my first post, but more importantly, my nerves are shot. I've been following this case since his arrest, and there is no way that this man is NCR. I REALLY hope that the jury makes the right decision.

 

[Kamille]

By the way, the NCR verdict for Mark Dobson, which was before a judge only and ended in October, has still not been delivered. They had said at the time it should be sometime in December. So how can a judge get months to make a decision like this and he apparently is having trouble and a panel of jurors is expected to get this right in a matter of days?

MOO

 

[andreww]

Yes, I do have slightly more information available than the jury. I have not been swayed by what I have read in the media. Like you stated previously, this case is to conclude if LM was criminally responsible or not. I personally do believe that he knew exactly what he was doing at the time of the act - and that is what this all boils down to. Magnotta clearly does have a past of mental illness, but all that is irrelevant here. All that matters is .. 'Did he know that it was wrong to kill JL'. I think he did. We all have our views, it's good that we have such forums that we can share them

I'm not disagreeing with you, but you aren't sitting in the courtroom as far as I know, so whatever you know about the case has been filtered by someone. The people sitting tweeting details only share 1% of what is being said, and if they have formed their own opinion, then the 1% that they share will likely reflect that because that is what they deem to be important.

As far as mental illness goes I know little about it, but I do have a family member that is going through some issues as we speak. One minute she seems normal, the next she is completely delusional. Its not an easy thing to understand and I don't agree with this decision being made by a jury of layman. If a defendant is seeking a NCR decision I believe they should need to spend a significant amount of time with a court appointed, impartial professional. If That person finds the defendant NCR, so be it, if not, he goes to trial. To ask a jury to make such a decision based on the testimony of paid witnesses is beyond ridiculous IMO.

 

[Kamille]

I believe that this may be my first post, but more importantly, my nerves are shot. I've been following this case since his arrest, and there is no way that this man is NCR. I REALLY hope that the jury makes the right decision.

Welcome flash_over :welcome:

I sure hope they do as well. And don't hesitate to post on this stuff. It helps the nerves.

 

[Kamille]

Does anyone have the 2 criteria for NCR handy? It seems the jury is really paying attention to that.

 

[andreww]

Hey its the second day of deliberations for Christopher Husbands, the Eaton Centre shooter who is also seeking a NCR verdict. Talk about nail biting time.

 

[DataMonkey]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but you aren't sitting in the courtroom as far as I know, so whatever you know about the case has been filtered by someone. The people sitting tweeting details only share 1% of what is being said, and if they have formed their own opinion, then the 1% that they share will likely reflect that because that is what they deem to be important.

As far as mental illness goes I know little about it, but I do have a family member that is going through some issues as we speak. One minute she seems normal, the next she is completely delusional. Its not an easy thing to understand and I don't agree with this decision being made by a jury of layman. If a defendant is seeking a NCR decision I believe they should need to spend a significant amount of time with a court appointed, impartial professional. If That person finds the defendant NCR, so be it, if not, he goes to trial. To ask a jury to make such a decision based on the testimony of paid witnesses is beyond ridiculous IMO.

That "someone" are the actions of Magnotta - no third party involvement swayed me. Anyway, view expressed, done. I do appreciate what you are saying regarding the jury and especially the way the 'experts' presented their information in whatever favour they were paid to do so. Also agree that mental illness is a very complex deep pit and difficult for the professionals, never mind Mr and Mrs Jones.

 

[DataMonkey]

I believe that this may be my first post, but more importantly, my nerves are shot. I've been following this case since his arrest, and there is no way that this man is NCR. I REALLY hope that the jury makes the right decision.

Hello, newbie here too and I am with you with the nerves!

:banghead:

 

[DataMonkey]

Does anyone have the 2 criteria for NCR handy? It seems the jury is really paying attention to that.

2000 – Criminal Code of Canada:

Section 16
(1) Defence of Mental Disorder – No person is criminally responsible for an act committed or an omission made while suffering from a mental disorder that rendered a person incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of the act or omission or of knowing that it was wrong.
(2) Presumption – Every person is presumed not to suffer from a mental disorder so as to be exempt from criminal responsibility by virtue of subsection (1), until the contrary is proved on the balance of probabilities
(3) Burden of Proof – The burden of proof that an accused was suffering from a mental disorder so as to be exempt from responsibility is on the party that raises the issue.

Definition of Terms: Legal Criteria Under Criminal Code of Canada for a Defense of “Not Criminally Responsible"
“Mental disorder”

defined in the Criminal Code of Canada as a “disease of the mind”
can include any mental abnormality which causes impairment with the exception of voluntary intoxication or transient mental states such as hysteria or concussion
consequently, personality disorders are eligible for this defence. At the present time this is uncommon, largely because appellate court decisions have rendered it unlikely that an individual with a personality disorder would be unable to appreciate the nature and quality of the act in the manner that the courts have ruled.
“Appreciate”

implies an ability to foresee and measure consequences and not simply “to know” in the cognitive sense.
"Nature and quality”

- refers to the physical consequences of an act.


“Knowing that the act or omission was wrong"

implies knowledge of both legal and moral wrongfulness. "Moral" means according to societal rather than individual moral code of the accused. It is insufficient that the individual simply chooses to follow their own moral dictates when they have the capacity to understand that it is wrong in the eyes of the law and wrong according to society’s usual standards.
the accused must have the ability to apply that knowledge rationally
What Does A Psychiatrist Need To Assess "Not Criminally Responsible" Issue:

Crown’s file including police reports, witness and victim statements
Previous psychiatric records
Autopsy report
Clinical interview with accused
Mental status examination of accused
Direct questioning of accused regarding knowledge of wrongfulness
Detailed account from accused about circumstances of offence
Possible psychological testing
Possible neurological examination(s)

And a lot more informative info:

http://www.forensicpsychiatry.ca/crimrespon/overview.htm

 

[DataMonkey]

"defined in the Criminal Code of Canada as a “disease of the mind”"

Hmm, is this why the jury questioned Personality Disorder?

 

[DataMonkey]

Interesting:

Evidence of Knowledge of Wrongfulness

Efforts to avoid detection
- wearing gloves during crime
- waiting until dark
- taking victim to an isolated place
- wearing mask or disguise
- concealment of a weapon on way to crime
- falsifying documents (passport, firearm permit)
- giving a false name
- threatening to kill witnesses if they report to police
- giving a false alibi
Disposing of evidence
- wiping off fingerprints
- washing off blood
- discarding of murder weapon
- burying a murder victim secretly
- destroying incriminating documents
Efforts to avoid detection
- fleeing from the crime scene
- fleeing from the police
- lying to the police
Statement by the defendant that he or she knew the act was wrong at the time of the offense
Notifying the police that a crime was committed
Expression of remorse or guilt after the crime committed
Absence of hallucinations or delusions suggesting that the offence was justified

I'm sorry, I am posting like a mad woman - I am so on edge. I think I shall go walk the dog!

 

[Kamille]

Okay so they were correct in answering that a personality disorder is considered mental illness under the law. What I found particularly interesting in the info DataMonkey posted is this...

consequently, personality disorders are eligible for this defence. At the present time this is uncommon, largely because appellate court decisions have rendered it unlikely that an individual with a personality disorder would be unable to appreciate the nature and quality of the act in the manner that the courts have ruled.

So if they come back with a NCR verdict, I think we can expect an appeal by the Crown.

MOO