Australia - Eight children killed in mass stabbing, Cairns, Qld, 19 Dec 2014 *Arrest*

[liljim]

mentally ill does not equal criminally insane, and it isnt meant to be an "excuse" but it is very important to consider as part of a "reason"...

as soon as the story broke (like most other people im sure) i said this will end up involving substance abuse or mental health issues, probably both...

it almost always does. no excuse, just a fact. already there are many sources stating this woman was not well mentally for some time prior.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

If those deemed criminally insane were kept in institutions for life to protect the rest of society people wouldn't feel so uneasy about that coming down as a judgement. There are too many INSANE people who are judged to be sane and thrown in prison instead of a secure mental facility where they belong, and their condition only worsens which makes life harsher for everyone else in there, and does them, the guards, nor the system any good. If someone is insane, they should be incarcerated for the rest of their lives if they have murdered IMO, but in a facility equipped to treat them and offer more security and humanity than the prison system does.

 

[JLSChook]

So then, I guess every single person that has murdered someone intentionally should be locked up in a mental facility? Gang bangers? Drug dealers? Serial killers?

Please tell me I'm taking this wrong.

Other cases on this forum that involve a man kidnapping, raping and intentionally murdering a child aren't afforded the same mental illness excuse that women usually are. I don't think that's fair.

I know many people disagree with this, and that's fine, but I truly believe that some people are just evil. Period. (I'm not saying the mother in this case is evil, FYI--just generalizing)

Please don't throw tomatoes, they hurt.

 

[liljim]

i think she pretty clearly said people that are found to be criminally insane, not everyone.

 

[Ausgirl]

I'm going to talk about the elephant in the room.

We have damaged the aboriginal people of this country so badly over the years with our government intervention, that I don't think anyone knows what to do anymore .. throwing services and money at the problem isn't working.

I do not have any answers for it, other than it's not OK and needs fixing .. Australia is two countries, a white first world country, and a black third world country, everyone should look at this movie and it's follow up film called Utopia to see the extent of the issue.

We need to take ownership of it and we all need to work together to fix it before it's too late and we lose our original people to violence, substance abuse and despair.

This story is so horrific that it is gaining national and world attention for once, there are many many more stories that are never told and are brushed under the carpet daily because we just do not want to face the truth of how sad and horrific the situation really is.

^ THIS.

There's been half a dozen cases I've read about just this year, where NOTHING has been done to prevent a tragedy in an Aboriginal household, because on one hand, DOCS (now FACS, aka CPS) workers are walking tippy toe around a mountain of red tape regarding handling of Aboriginal families and thus scared to take decisive action re removal of kids from potential harm (thanks to Stolen Generation guilt), while so little has actually been done in reality to ameliorate the rampant issues causing so much child abuse and domestic violence.

The answer's been, for years, to throw money at it all and hope it goes away. But the most vulnerable communities also seem vulnerable to corruption so while local authorities and those allocating funds live it up on the fat wages given by the Govt, the people most in need are getting very little actual help. In one case I looked at recently, there were Govt offices with 16 air conditioners for like, three people, while people in the 'town' surrounding the building had no running water or sewerage systems, and were living in tin sheds and tents.

I could go on, but will not. Suffice to say I 100% agree with Mrs G on this. Change needs to happen.

And OMG ----- there's a world of difference between a "gang banger" (do we even have those here?) and a mentally ill woman with 8 kids in the outback. :notgood:

 

[MsFacetious]

Unfortunately it isn't even just Aboriginal households.
We've seen it happen in other households in Australia as well.
Despite proven abuse kids aren't removed.
Even after obvious risk and the death of another child, kids are not only left there but are not monitored in any way.

I don't know what the solution is... I only know there is a huge problem. :twocents:

 

[Amee]

It has been confirmed that she is the mother to seven of the children and the other was her visiting niece.

Police say they have also located a number of weapons, including knives, at the Queensland home.

The children's bodies have been removed from the property and autopsies are expected to be conducted today.

The woman has not yet been charged and remains under police guard at Cairns Hospital.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-mother-s-chilling-scream.html#ixzz3MO0kNJyG

 

[Ausgirl]

If those deemed criminally insane were kept in institutions for life to protect the rest of society people wouldn't feel so uneasy about that coming down as a judgement. There are too many INSANE people who are judged to be sane and thrown in prison instead of a secure mental facility where they belong, and their condition only worsens which makes life harsher for everyone else in there, and does them, the guards, nor the system any good. If someone is insane, they should be incarcerated for the rest of their lives if they have murdered IMO, but in a facility equipped to treat them and offer more security and humanity than the prison system does.

Oh look, Mrs. G - I've agreed 100% with you, twice in one day!

This, this and this again.

 

[Ausgirl]

Unfortunately it isn't even just Aboriginal households.
We've seen it happen in other households in Australia as well.
Despite proven abuse kids aren't removed.
Even after obvious risk and the death of another child, kids are not only left there but are not monitored in any way.

I don't know what the solution is... I only know there is a huge problem. :twocents:

I spent my childhood as one of those kids, MsF. No murder in the family.. though not for want of trying. The other kids were finally removed... and I was the one left behind.

As someone who's lived with a mentally ill mother who *tried* to kill me, all this guff about people being just evil and people using mental illness as excuse is plain BS to me. My mum was once a lovely, beautiful, caring person, a certified nurse and a wonderful mum who lived for her kids. That all changed.... and it was due to mental illness and improper treatment of it, as well as self-medication.

I mourned my mother for 30 years before she died, and not at all after. This all hits a lot of triggers for me. While I have all compassion for my mum, as someone who suffered and ended up alone, she ceased being my mother when I was very young, and turned into a dangerous stranger -- in my mind, that's who she is. You never forget the knife coming at you.

It wasn't her fault, though. This is what mental illness, not properly treated or managed or monitored, does to people.

 

[SouthAussie]

Unfortunately it isn't even just Aboriginal households.
We've seen it happen in other households in Australia as well.
Despite proven abuse kids aren't removed.
Even after obvious risk and the death of another child, kids are not only left there but are not monitored in any way.

I don't know what the solution is... I only know there is a huge problem. :twocents:

Yes .. as anyone who has been following the Chloe Valentine inquest, for example, will know. In her case, the issues were obvious to everyone ... except Families SA.

 

[Tulessa]

So then, I guess every single person that has murdered someone intentionally should be locked up in a mental facility? Gang bangers? Drug dealers? Serial killers?

Please tell me I'm taking this wrong.

Other cases on this forum that involve a man kidnapping, raping and intentionally murdering a child aren't afforded the same mental illness excuse that women usually are. I don't think that's fair.

I know many people disagree with this, and that's fine, but I truly believe that some people are just evil. Period. (I'm not saying the mother in this case is evil, FYI--just generalizing)

Please don't throw tomatoes, they hurt.

JSL, that's why we have a TRUE CRIME series! It's called Most Evil, and it involves real people. ITA with you.

 

[Amee]

The Australian has been told she was last night placed under an involuntary care order by psychiatrists. Blood and DNA samples were taken.

While Detective Inspector Asnicar said it was possible there would be further “persons of interest”, police were not looking for other perpetrators.

“At this stage we’e not looking for anybody else,” Detective Inspector Asnicar. “We’re comfortable that the community at large is safe.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...childrens-deaths/story-e6frg6nf-1227162665940

 

[Tulessa]

I spent my childhood as one of those kids, MsF. No murder in the family.. though not for want of trying. The other kids were finally removed... and I was the one left behind.

As someone who's lived with a mentally ill mother who *tried* to kill me, all this guff about people being just evil and people using mental illness as excuse is plain BS to me. My mum was once a lovely, beautiful, caring person, a certified nurse and a wonderful mum who lived for her kids. That all changed.... and it was due to mental illness and improper treatment of it, as well as self-medication.

I mourned my mother for 30 years before she died, and not at all after. This all hits a lot of triggers for me.

:grouphug:

 

[SouthAussie]

i think she pretty clearly said people that are found to be criminally insane, not everyone.

I think JLSChook may have been replying to an opinion on the previous page, about mentally healthy people not intentionally killing people. :dunno:

 

[loveamystery]

[...]The chilling sound of a woman pleading for forgiveness was heard coming from the home where eight children were found stabbed to death on Friday in Cairns.

On Thursday night a woman was heard shouting: 'Don’t let them take them away from us. God bless us. Forgive me for what I’ll do.'

A neighbour said they heard a woman screaming in a mixture of English and Torres Strait Creole, a native language of islanders.

Mersane Warria, who is also known as Raina Thaiday, is a person of interest in the deaths of the children, according to reports by the Courier Mail.

The 37-year-old remains in Cairns Hospital in a stable condition and will undergo a mental health assessment. On Friday night police had still not laid any charges. The 20-year-old brother of most of the victims alerted authorities.

Another neighbour said she saw the mother taking personal possessions from her home to her front yard saying she was going to 'make a fresh start', writes the Courier Mail.

A 13-year-old girl said she walked two of her girlfriends to the Murray Street house on Thursday evening after they had been shopping.

She said when they got to the house, the older girl's mother - Ms Warria - came out and gave her money for a taxi home.

'She was saying stuff about God and other stuff,' she told AAP near the crime scene on Friday afternoon. She said: 'Papa God gave me the power to do anything.'

Warria also told the girl she was a 'warrior'.
Far Northern Region Acting Chief Superintendent Russell Miller confirmed Ms Warria was a person of interest in relation to the deaths of her seven children and niece, the Sun Herald reported. [...]


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-mother-s-chilling-scream.html#ixzz3MO6Ra7pa
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[MsFacetious]

I spent my childhood as one of those kids, MsF. No murder in the family.. though not for want of trying. The other kids were finally removed... and I was the one left behind.

As someone who's lived with a mentally ill mother who *tried* to kill me, all this guff about people being just evil and people using mental illness as excuse is plain BS to me. My mum was once a lovely, beautiful, caring person, a certified nurse and a wonderful mum who lived for her kids. That all changed.... and it was due to mental illness and improper treatment of it, as well as self-medication.

I mourned my mother for 30 years before she died, and not at all after. This all hits a lot of triggers for me. While I have all compassion for my mum, as someone who suffered and ended up alone, she ceased being my mother when I was very young, and turned into a dangerous stranger -- in my mind, that's who she is. You never forget the knife coming at you.

It wasn't her fault, though. This is what mental illness, not properly treated or managed or monitored, does to people.

Yes, my mother wasn't physically abusive but sometimes I think that would have been better.
My mother is a misdiagnosed Borderline with prescription drug abuse issues.
The first time my husband met her he wanted to hit her. Literally and he is not a violent man.
She basically greeted him by telling him he should stay away from me and that I was crazy.

My father is finally divorcing her and she is doing a BIT better part of the time.
We will have to see what happens when the divorce is final.
I will make a decision at that point if we will remain in her life or not.
For now I am able to talk to her. But for many years I did not refer to her as my mother at all. :twocents:

 

[Ausgirl]

MsF.. :hug: Then you know why some of the comments dismissing mental illness are so distressing to the survivors of it. Love to you, and whatever decision you make, you will know what's best for your own family, trust in that. :heart:

 

[BritsKate]

I am not jumping to the conclusion this mother was mentally ill. There is no evidence thus far she was mentally ill. I sort of get tired of the mental illness excuse being immediately banded about when it is a mom who murders when that is never discussed when a father wipes out his children.

Moms who murder their children are the gender who most often doesn't succeed in their suicide attempt. When fathers murder their children they are more often successful in committing suicide. It makes one wonder if the moms truly did want to commit suicide or did the failed attempt thinking it would invoke sympathy. I think if someone really has intentions of killing themselves they will accomplish the deed. She easily could have cut her throat from ear to ear. She certainly didn't have any problem murdering all of these innocent children.

Actually moms who murder their children are most often NOT mentally ill. In fact only 2-4% of moms who murder their children are deemed mentally ill. I find it disturbing that she supposedly said 'she was going to start a new life.' (paraphrasing)

They murder their children for the same reasons fathers often do.

They see them as burdens they no longer want to carry.

Marital issues in the home.

Spite. etc............

I've been studying maternal filicide for over 25 years. Overwhelmingly, mothers who commit murder are most definitely mentally ill, specifically most often suffering from clinical depression (up to 70%). Mothers who murder also most often do so for altruistic motives, according to Resnick, a pioneer in the study of filicide. Spousal revenge accounts for the lowest percentage. Most mothers who kill their children (50% according to one study cited below) feel they are saving their children from a worse life after the mother's suicide or alleviating the child's suffering - economically, socially, emotionally, etc.

When I heard about these little ones my heart broke. They're supposed to be dreaming of reindeer and counting down minutes until their stockings are stuffed with sweets. When I heard it was the mother arrested I was just floored. This type of filicide is unusual for a mother to perpetrate. I have a hard time believing mental illness won't be a factor and wouldn't be at all surprised if the mother is actually psychotic. Many psychotic mothers readily confess their crimes to others. Psychosis accounts for the second highest contributing factor.

I pray Oz find much needed hope and healing right now.

http://btci.stanford.clockss.org/cgi/reprint/8/3/283.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2922347/

 

[Ausgirl]

rsbm

Psychosis accounts for the second highest contributing factor.

Thanks, BritsKate, for sharing that info.

I was actually thinking "psychosis" myself, after seeing reports that the mother was heard saying she was getting messages from God, etc., prior to the murders, and otherwise acting in bizarre ways.

The moving the furniture/possessions out to the front lawn/nature strip in the middle of the night is something I actually have also lived through, when my own mum had a psychotic break (one of many..). Weird, scary stuff. Maybe the kids were confused, very tired and crying.. I know I was.. and this has made her psychosis turn on them. Who knows.

My thoughts are with the 20-yo son, today, who has lost his entire family in one night. Poor kid.

 

[BritsKate]

rsbm

Thanks, BritsKate, for sharing that info.

I was actually thinking "psychosis" myself, after seeing reports that the mother was heard saying she was getting messages from God, etc., prior to the murders, and otherwise acting in bizarre ways.

The moving the furniture/possessions out to the front lawn/nature strip in the middle of the night is something I actually have also lived through, when my own mum had a psychotic break (one of many..). Weird, scary stuff. Maybe the kids were confused, very tired and crying.. I know I was.. and this has made her psychosis turn on them. Who knows.

My thoughts are with the 20-yo son, today, who has lost his entire family in one night. Poor kid.

RBBM

I didn't know that but it certainly sounds like it. Statistically, psychotic mothers are overwhelmingly more likely to use a weapon instead of a soft kill technique. (11 times more likely)