Related Issues and Food for Thought

[SnooperDuper]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe only the first three were charged with first degree murder. Andrea G was charged with concealing human remains and the last I found was from February 2015 when her bail hearing was delayed again. So far no bail? George H was charged with indecently interfering with human remains and accessory to murder after the fact. Dennis O was charged with second degree murder.

Out of the roughly 500 - 600 people charged with homicide (which includes murder, manslaughter and infanticide), I guess we're averaging around 1%. I imagine the percentage receiving bail for 1st degree is less than that.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/legal12a-eng.htm

JMO

Well here is a quick collection of recent cases where the charge was first degree murder and bail was granted. In two cases, the accused's own children were killed; in the others there are co-accused.

Nathan Gervais > Lukas Strasser-Hird
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/c...e+murder+charge+gets+bail/10403993/story.html

Shane Babitsch > Courtney Johnstone
http://www.mygrandeprairienow.com/5...prairie-man-charged-with-first-degree-murder/

Guy Turcotte > Olivier and Anne-Sophie Turcotte
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/09/12/quebec_doctor_who_killed_his_kids_granted_bail.html

Pamela Pike > Jason Skinner
http://www.gfwadvertiser.ca/News/Lo...-murder-in-Grand-Falls-Windsor-granted-bail/1

Cindy Ali > Cynara Amiee Ali
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/10/1...rst-degree-murder-in-disabled-daughters-death

Delmy Vega-Medrano > Beverly Parker
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=944b8a40-7c03-4efe-91c7-ab2099a70542

 

[Carli]

Well here is a quick collection of recent cases where the charge was first degree murder and bail was granted. In two cases, the accused's own children were killed; in the others there are co-accused.

Nathan Gervais > Lukas Strasser-Hird
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/c...e+murder+charge+gets+bail/10403993/story.html

Shane Babitsch > Courtney Johnstone
http://www.mygrandeprairienow.com/5...prairie-man-charged-with-first-degree-murder/

Guy Turcotte > Olivier and Anne-Sophie Turcotte
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/09/12/quebec_doctor_who_killed_his_kids_granted_bail.html

Pamela Pike > Jason Skinner
http://www.gfwadvertiser.ca/News/Lo...-murder-in-Grand-Falls-Windsor-granted-bail/1

Cindy Ali > Cynara Amiee Ali
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/10/1...rst-degree-murder-in-disabled-daughters-death

Delmy Vega-Medrano > Beverly Parker
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=944b8a40-7c03-4efe-91c7-ab2099a70542

Hmm. That's a pretty compelling lineup. But you know something? I've never heard of any of these cases before. Not even the one where the young gal strangled her boyfriend's mom, and the lady wasn't even her mother-in-law yet! I'm saying look, tragic circumstances notsithstanding, there's no front page items here; no national interviews; no nationally televised memorial service; no extensive reviews of the evil one's corporate interests, etc. I could certainly be wrong but it seems to me there's so much heat associated with this case that nobody sees wisdom in revving up the rhetoric any further - as in, say, applying for bail. The alternative is obviously ugly but, under the circumstances, may be the wisest thing to do. In the slammer, there's a few bikers, I suppose, some druggies, and a bunch of mentally disturbed folks who might be prepared to harm you. On the "outside" it's the whole enraged bejeebered community who are on your case. IMO. IMHO. MOO. etc.

 

[redheart]

The Guy Turcotte case was all over national news.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Hmm. That's a pretty compelling lineup. But you know something? I've never heard of any of these cases before. Not even the one where the young gal strangled her boyfriend's mom, and the lady wasn't even her mother-in-law yet! I'm saying look, tragic circumstances notsithstanding, there's no front page items here; no national interviews; no nationally televised memorial service; no extensive reviews of the evil one's corporate interests, etc. I could certainly be wrong but it seems to me there's so much heat associated with this case that nobody sees wisdom in revving up the rhetoric any further - as in, say, applying for bail. The alternative is obviously ugly but, under the circumstances, may be the wisest thing to do. In the slammer, there's a few bikers, I suppose, some druggies, and a bunch of mentally disturbed folks who might be prepared to harm you. On the "outside" it's the whole enraged bejeebered community who are on your case. IMO. IMHO. MOO. etc.

Actually I think the GT saga probably got as much press as DM's, and GT still has a wiki because the case is that notorious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Turcotte

GT used an insanity defense successfully and was committed to a mental hospital but told them that he felt all better 6 months after sentencing (3 years after the crime). He was released, and this is controversial.

There was a lot of violence in GT's relationship and then add in the mental health bit and the T's have been shamed widely. Both of the T's were professionals that live by their name and reputation.

There is no escaping a shaming, whether you are in jail or shunned in your community...or maybe DM has enough support, enough of a circle that if he were released on bail, he would be insulated from the shaming by others.

GT is not suffering any detrimental mental effects from the public shaming he has received - IMO it seems that he is a very strong, resilient person now. Maybe a good shaming builds character (or demonstrates psychopathy).

ETA: In the end, CN chose to seek bail. Apparently she thought it better to face a shaming than stay in jail.

 

[Carli]

Actually I think the GT saga probably got as much press as DM's, and GT still has a wiki because the case is that notorious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Turcotte

GT used an insanity defense successfully and was committed to a mental hospital but told them that he felt all better 6 months after sentencing (3 years after the crime). He was released, and this is controversial.

There was a lot of violence in GT's relationship and then add in the mental health bit and the T's have been shamed widely. Both of the T's were professionals that live by their name and reputation.

There is no escaping a shaming, whether you are in jail or shunned in your community...or maybe DM has enough support, enough of a circle that if he were released on bail, he would be insulated from the shaming by others.

GT is not suffering any detrimental mental effects from the public shaming he has received - IMO it seems that he is a very strong, resilient person now. Maybe a good shaming builds character (or demonstrates psychopathy).

ETA: In the end, CN chose to seek bail. Apparently she thought it better to face a shaming than stay in jail.

Hmm, well, as you say, Snoop, but I never heard of the case you're referencing until just now following the links you provided. I guess it may have been big news in Ontario? After reading your post I emailed a chum in Winnipeg. She said she had some dim recall of the case but she had it mixed up with a Winnipeg indigenous teenager's murder. Out here in the west beyond the west it doesn't ring any bells whatsoever so I don't think there could have been much coverage or surely something about it would have lodged in my memory. The TB case, on the other hand, occupied the top of the news for weeks on end. For obvious reasons and on numerous fronts, the particulars resonated with many people and the newsmen clearly found the story and irresistible ratings scoop. MOO. IMHO.

But I wasn't referencing shaming as being the issue. I was referencing two elements - there may be more. First, personal safety issues of the two accused. From all we understand many thousands, if not millions, of dollars have rapidly changed hands in the past few months and major careers have been interrupted - this means winners and most of all, it means losers. Many losers tend to react negatively to their new circumstances. To what extent a need for revenge exists and how someone might choose to exercise the rage, I don't know, but I would not be surprised to see reckless passions in play. IMO. MOO. The second issue arises from the remarkable degree of secrecy surround this case. Whatever the circumstances may be that give rise to this endlessly protective posture, it's pretty clear that none of the parties are interested in have these defendants out there holding their own interview sessions on national TV. In other words, for this and other related reasons, I doubt that bail applications would represent anything other than a waste of time and legal costs, for they would almost certainly be denied.

As for CN applying for and receiving bail, her criminal participation appears to have been peripheral at best. She is not charged with first degree murder and even LE publically doubted her active involvement. Besides, she young and attractive and IMO most people feel very sorry that she fell under the spell of the evil ones who obviously tricked or frightened her somehow. MOO. IMHO. I expect that at trial, the defense may ask her how terrified she was of the two accused. IMO. IMHO.

Oh, just a quick addition, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that apparently this Turcotte guy was a murderous menace to his own children. His mental instability apparently didn't include having him murder a random stranger. That might have made a difference, too, I suppose. MOO.

 

[Arnie M]

.

Not sure why anyone here is puzzled DM did not get bail

He did not even try , and neither did his lawyer

(Quotes by Lawyer)

..... Dellen Millard has no plans to seek bail as he awaits his murder trial, in part for “tactical reasons,” according to his lawyer.

..... His lawyer, Deepak Paradkar would not go into detail about the decision against seeking bail, but said trying to achieve release is a “very, very onerous task” in first-degree murder cases.

..... “There are a lot of tactical reasons why one might not go for bail, because at a bail hearing, [the Crown] might get to present a case which might affect a lot of things,” he said, adding that the choice was also influenced by “privileged conversations” and publicity surrounding the case.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...lice-continue-to-search-farm/article14239837/

.

 

[Sillybilly]

His lawyer, Deepak Paradkar would not go into detail about the decision against seeking bail, but said trying to achieve release is a “very, very onerous task” in first-degree murder cases.

..... “There are a lot of tactical reasons why one might not go for bail, because at a bail hearing, [the Crown] might get to present a case which might affect a lot of things,” he said, adding that the choice was also influenced by “privileged conversations” and publicity surrounding the case.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...lice-continue-to-search-farm/article14239837/.

<rsbm>

An 'onerous' task, but one that most defence lawyers perform on behalf of clients sitting in jail facing murder charges.

"Might affect a lot of things", perhaps including DM getting to hear the Crown's case set out before him, making the decision to plead Guilty, and therefore negating the need for a lengthy but costly trial.

 

[Arnie M]

What if DM & MS do not plead guilty , do not make any statements , do not take the stand in court , and simply let the crown put forward their case (theory) as best they can.

It would give defense lawyers the chance to sow seeds of doubt about exactly who did what , and a jury may find for manslaughter instead of first degree because of the uncertainty.

Police reported there was a struggle with TB before he was killed .... who started it ??? ... the deceased ??? ... see what I mean ??? ... seeds of doubt are easy to sow.

I was a witness at such a trial , 2 people (a man and a woman) robbed and stabbed a man , evidence proved both accused fingerprints were at the scene , both accused had victims property in their possession , but they could not prove who did the stabbing (first degree) so the jury went for manslaughter against both of them (10 years each)

Ironically the man only served 6 years of the 10 , was released on probation , then he and another crime partner beat and robbed an elderly man and the man died , but the coroner said the old man had a weak heart and maybe that is why he died , so again , only manslaughter for both

One of the accused escaped custody , broke into my building to steal a car , I caught him and he was returned to jail , at that point they wanted to give him dangerous offender status , thus I was required to testify and sat through the whole hearing..

 

[SnooperDuper]

What if DM & MS do not plead guilty , do not make any statements , do not take the stand in court , and simply let the crown put forward their case (theory) as best they can.

It would give defense lawyers the chance to sow seeds of doubt about exactly who did what , and a jury may find for manslaughter instead of first degree because of the uncertainty.

Police reported there was a struggle with TB before he was killed .... who started it ??? ... the deceased ??? ... see what I mean ??? ... seeds of doubt are easy to sow.

I was a witness at such a trial , 2 people (a man and a woman) robbed and stabbed a man , evidence proved both accused fingerprints were at the scene , both accused had victims property in their possession , but they could not prove who did the stabbing (first degree) so the jury went for manslaughter against both of them (10 years each)

Ironically the man only served 6 years of the 10 , was released on probation , then he and another crime partner beat and robbed an elderly man and the man died , but the coroner said the old man had a weak heart and maybe that is why he died , so again , only manslaughter for both

One of the accused escaped custody , broke into my building to steal a car , I caught him and he was returned to jail , at that point they wanted to give him dangerous offender status , thus I was required to testify and sat through the whole hearing..

Well not so fast: DM also faces a forcible confinement charge (as driver of the truck) and that upgrades the charge for any death to first degree.

MS OTOH was never charged with forcible confinement and theoretically could be downgraded to manslaughter.

 

[matou]

So why wasn't MS charged with forcible confinement and theft in addition to the murder charge? Because LE already had TB's remains?

 

[Arnie M]

Well not so fast: DM also faces a forcible confinement charge (as driver of the truck) and that upgrades the charge for any death to first degree.

MS OTOH was never charged with forcible confinement and theoretically could be downgraded to manslaughter.

You make a good point .... before now I thought both MS & DM were charged with the forcible confinement portion of it

On the other hand , at the time (of that charge) they did not know TB was dead , nor that MS was involved , so likely they were throwing as much as they could at DM to arrest him and hold him.

With the greater charge of murder , it will be interesting to see how many of the secondary offenses they prosecute them for , stolen property etc. I hope we get to hear it all.

.

 

[SnooperDuper]

So why wasn't MS charged with forcible confinement and theft in addition to the murder charge? Because LE already had TB's remains?

I think because DM had control of the truck - he was driving when the three left SB's home. Technically, he was the one that confined TB and stole the truck and MS was just along for the ride.

 

[SnooperDuper]

You make a good point .... before now I thought both MS & DM were charged with the forcible confinement portion of it

On the other hand , at the time (of that charge) they did not know TB was dead , nor that MS was involved , so likely they were throwing as much as they could at DM to arrest him and hold him.

With the greater charge of murder , it will be interesting to see how many of the secondary offenses they prosecute them for , stolen property etc. I hope we get to hear it all.

.

I am sure that when they spoke to the RBEG and SB, LE discovered DM was doing all the talking and the driving, i.e., leading the mission.

I think DM faces more charges because he took the leadership role in this venture.

 

[matou]

I still think MS drove the Yukon behind. His arrest was announced when the Yukon was identified as the vehicle that followed behind. How was MS identified as the second suspect? I think his prints were identified in either of the two vehicles since his prints were already on file from his previous criminal records.

 

[matou]

I've been looking in the first reports after DM was arrested. I remember him making a statement via his lawyer that he was interested in knowing what the evidence was against him. This was when he was only charged with forcible confinement and theft. The truck had not yet been discovered at his mom's. That always stuck out to me. He was smug, IMO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I've been looking in the first reports after DM was arrested. I remember him making a statement via his lawyer that he was interested in knowing what the evidence was against him. This was when he was only charged with forcible confinement and theft. The truck had not yet been discovered at his mom's. That always stuck out to me. He was smug, IMO.

The article Arnie M posted was Sept 2013 and at that time, "Mr. Paradkar said Mr. Millard still hopes to build his dream home at the property."

I don't think DM ever expected to get caught, or ever had a plan as to what to do if he was caught.

 

[matou]

Where were his home building plans? I call bs on him wanting to build a home. Where are the plans?

 

[Carli]

Well not so fast: DM also faces a forcible confinement charge (as driver of the truck) and that upgrades the charge for any death to first degree.

MS OTOH was never charged with forcible confinement and theoretically could be downgraded to manslaughter.

Hopefully someone can explain away my confusion about that original "forcible confinement" charge which, as I understand it, must relate to TB willingly getting into his own vehicle and being driven away by the accused. Is it considered a forcible confinement because it is not reasonable to expect a person to jump from a moving vehicle? When my husband takes the wheel of my car to drive me somewhere, is he, in theory, guilty of forcible confinement? I don't mean this to be a frivolous question - would really like to understand the charge. MOO. IMHO.

Some stats at http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2009001/article/10781-eng.htm but they offer little help in relation to this case, IMO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Hopefully someone can explain away my confusion about that original "forcible confinement" charge which, as I understand it, must relate to TB willingly getting into his own vehicle and being driven away by the accused. Is it considered a forcible confinement because it is not reasonable to expect a person to jump from a moving vehicle? When my husband takes the wheel of my car to drive me somewhere, is he, in theory, guilty of forcible confinement? I don't mean this to be a frivolous question - would really like to understand the charge. MOO. IMHO.

Some stats at http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2009001/article/10781-eng.htm but they offer little help in relation to this case, IMO.

Forceable confinement includes kidnapping, and that's what happened, with TB taken from his home under the ruse of a test drive...transported to another location, killed.

TB might have been killed so suddenly that he never knew he needed to get away from these men. I don't think the victim needs to be aware that he's being kidnapped in order to call it a kidnapping, if that's what happened.

The victim does not have to have a literal locked chamber around them IMO. Even being unaware of the situation ensnares the victim.

From the noted page

For the purposes of this report, the term "forcible confinement" also includes the offence of "kidnapping".2 Kidnapping is similar to forcible confinement in that a person is held against their will, but it also involves the act of transporting the victim from one place to another. It is not possible to distinguish between these two offences from the data reported by police services; however, information from adult criminal courts shows the vast majority (94%) to be forcible confinement.

 

[Arnie M]

I've been looking in the first reports after DM was arrested. I remember him making a statement via his lawyer that he was interested in knowing what the evidence was against him. This was when he was only charged with forcible confinement and theft. The truck had not yet been discovered at his mom's. That always stuck out to me. He was smug, IMO.

Yes , and police will say the same thing

When they are questioning a "guilty" person .... that person will "quiz" the officer .... what do you know ... ? ... what evidence do you have so far .... ? ... what have you got that implicates me .... ? etc etc

Whereas an "innocent" person being questioned or arrested will be genuinely bewildered ... they will not even try to pry the information from police , because the information does not exist .