MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #3 *INDICTMENT*

[zapped]

How about, instead of saying that, someone finally says "yes, you are right, dirty cops are despicable and it's time to do something about it."

Shortened by me for brevity and relevance.

I think youre only viewing one side of the coin here.

I agree that bad cops are despicable BUT theres seems to be issues with personal accountability on both sides in this situation.

Yes, there are bad policemen but tragedies like this will sadly be repeated until all parties involved take responsibility for their own actions....instead of blaming someone else.

Looting and rioting isnt helping anyones cause here either. Acting like common criminals then demanding that you be treated otherwise is insane.

I still stand firmly by my statements that there are FAR fewer bad cops than there are bad hood rats.

If you want to blame anything here, blame a culture that teaches children to fear cops and to keep secrets from the men and women who have sworn an oath to uphold law and order.

 

[CoolJ]

Shortened by me for brevity and relevance.

I think youre only viewing one side of the coin here.

I agree that bad cops are despicable BUT theres seems to be issues with personal accountability on both sides in this situation.

Yes, there are bad policemen but tragedies like this will only be repeated until all parties involved take responsibility for their own actions....instead of blaming someone else.

Looting and rioting isnt helping anyones cause here either. Acting like common criminals then demanding that you be treated otherwise is insane.

I still stand firmly by my statements that are still FAR fewer bad cops than there are bad hood rats.

If you want to blame anything here, blame a culture that teaches children to fear cops and to keep secrets from the men and women who have sworn an oath to uphold law and order.

So we have to wait for criminals to start taking responsibility for their actions in order to avoid tragedies like this?

Sounds good to me. Not sure how realistic it is, but I am an optimist so I will go along with it.

But how about in the meantime the good guys be the good guys.

 

[katydid23]

From what has been reported and settled in civil courts, I am not so sure the problem within the BPD is "vanishingly" small. The Joe Crystal case points to a culture within the BPD that is dishonest and and possibly criminal in nature. If the good cops can't even speak out without being in fear for their lives, then there is nothing "vanishingly" small about it.
Again, maybe that is a result of decades of extreme violence and gang activity akin to a war zone.
This continued counter argument to police brutality, about how much more violent the criminals are is just plain silly. Nobody disagrees with that. The criminals being more "criminal" than the cops is how it is SUPPOSED to be.

The cop that beat up the drug dealer did so because the guy broke into the cops girlfriends house that night. She called him all frightened because this creep broke in and she was there all alone. The cop went to the arrest site and dragged him back inot the house and roughed him up.

I am not saying that was something to be proud of. And I don't condone the behavior. But having some LE in my family, I DO understand why he reacted so aggressively. The biggest fear a cop has is that some gangbanger is going to retaliate by breaking into a cops families home. It is their number one priority to protect their families. So the other cops would absolutely sympathize with the angry cop whose girlfriend was a victim of a home invasion that very night. If someone broke into your home when your wife was there alone, would you beat the guy up if you had the chance?

I read the long article about Joe Crystal, and not all of the force hassled him. Some sided with him. So it is not a cut and dry situation. JMO

I am not sure if we can link Buzzfeed here bit google that plus Joe Crystal for the whole story.

 

[katydid23]

I don't dismiss it at all. I would love to have a thread to discuss that topic. But, while interconnected, it is a different topic. It's the same ole counter argument. When folks show concern about police brutality, what they hear in return is ... " yeah but , yeah but... Look at all the black on black violence". It is frustrating like you wouldn't imagine. AND condescending because it makes one feel as though their concerns aren't even being heard. And the cycle continues. How about, instead of saying that, someone finally says "yes, you are right, dirty cops are despicable and it's time to do something about it."

But it is totally interconnected and NOT a different topic. That is what I am trying to explain. The black on black violence is what keeps the cops going into the neighborhoods, and keeps them feeling vulnerable to these violent gangbangers, just like the locals are. IT IS NOT A DIFFERENT TOPIC, imo.

Why are the cops being aggressive and using force? Because they are battling the same people that are the source of this wave of violent crime. The same people that have killed 100 people this year so far are the same people that the cops are interacting with in an adversarial way. How can they be expected to do so without being aggressive and intimidating as well?

I understand that it feels frustrating that some people feel they are not being heard when they complain about the police and their brutality and aggression. I am sure it is frustrating. But it is also frustrating for the cops to be expected to take these violent gangsters on, head on, in the gangs turf, and then be accused of being too aggressive when they stop and question and frisk them. How can you chase a gang member into a field in the middle of the night and not be ready to use necessary force?

So YES, dirty cops are despicable, and we are already doing something about it, IMO.

But I am not going to buy into this manufactured narrative that the entire nation is full of militaristic cops that are wantonly killing unarmed innocents on the way to choir practice.

 

[zapped]

But it is totally interconnected and NOT a different topic. That is what I am trying to explain. The black on black violence is what keeps the cops going into the neighborhoods, and keeps them feeling vulnerable to these violent gangbangers, just like the locals are. IT IS NOT A DIFFERENT TOPIC, imo.

Why are the cops being aggressive and using force? Because they are battling the same people that are the source of this wave of violent crime. The same people that have killed 100 people this year so far are the same people that the cops are interacting with in an adversarial way. How can they be expected to do so without being aggressive and intimidating as well?

I understand that it feels frustrating that some people feel they are not being heard when they complain about the police and their brutality and aggression. I am sure it is frustrating. But it is also frustrating for the cops to be expected to take these violent gangsters on, head on, in the gangs turf, and then be accused of being too aggressive when they stop and question and frisk them. How can you chase a gang member into a field in the middle of the night and not be ready to use necessary force?

So YES, dirty cops are despicable, and we are already doing something about it, IMO.

But I am not going to buy into this manufactured narrative that the entire nation is full of militaristic cops that are wantonly killing unarmed innocents on the way to choir practice.

Excellent points!

Are LE officers gentler and more respectful in more affluent neighborhoods?

Probably.

You treat an officer with respect and dont resist arrest then most are going to reciprocate. Judges in Virginia routinely ask officers about the defendants behavior and it plays a role in sentencing.

People have a tendency to give back what they receive. LE is no different and as youve pointed out, their failing to meet aggression with aggression could cost the innocent lives of officers who are simply trying to do their jobs.

Of course the same people crying about Freddie Gray right now are usually silent about that.

 

[Tricia]

Please everyone. Stay on topic. This is about Freddie Gray and nothing else.

Thanks.
Tricia

 

[KEVINinTO]

Officers file for a change of venue

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...-gray-venue-change-motion-20150527-story.html

 

[LietKynes]

news.yahoo.com/baltimore-residents-fearful-amid-homicide-spike-083758282.html


Baltimore gets bloodier as arrests drop post-Freddie Gray

Arrests were already declining before Freddie Gray died on April 19 of injuries he suffered in police custody, but they dropped sharply thereafter, as his death unleashed protests, riots, the criminal indictment of six officers and a full-on civil rights investigation by the U.S. Justice Department that has officers working under close scrutiny.

Emphasis mine.

This was possibly mentioned upthread --about the arrests in that city "already declining" ; so apologies in advance .... and am also marking my spot.
I didn't realize that arrests were getting fewer even before FG's death.

Interesting to contemplate that leo's were becoming wary of maybe getting killed for pulling someone over who was walking down the street while holding a gun, or some other petty behavior.
I can understand not wanting to get killed over asking a few questions about whether or not a person has a cc permit.

Apparently "Yahoo" is also certain that FG's injuries happened during the time he was in custody. Not very objective ; before all is said and done ; imo. Cannot imagine mainstream media wanting to inflame the masses. :innocent:

"Before it was over-policing. Now there's no police," said Donnail "Dreads" Lee, 34, who lives in the Gilmor Homes, the public housing complex where Gray, 25, was chased down.
Just can't please everyone, it seems.
But if a cop stops to question people or look into a call about a robbery or whatever -- and the leo is suddenly surrounded by 30 or more people who are indignant ; one can hardly blame le for becoming hesitant .

If the "Wild West" is what people want...

:moo:

 

[dandy]

mkelly's show has been doing a lot of coverage on this the past few nites. the police commissioner said l/e has lots of questions & rattled them off but didn't provide an answer. that's very telling imo cause i bet he doesn't have an answer - or the answer would be yes -- you can/will be arrested. what a mess.

i'm not convinced these 6 cops are bad.

forgot to add - why don't all these people with cell phones turn them on the drug dealers & criminals.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

PICTURED: Officers arrested in Freddie Gray murder being taken to jail WITHOUT handcuffs as one suspect HUGS fellow cop before being booked

Three of the officers in the Freddie Gray murder case were seen being taken into booking without handcuffs

Caesar R. Goodson Jr., William G. Porter and Edward M. Nero are seen on video casually entering Central Booking on May 1

Goodson, who is being charged with second-degree murder, even takes some time to hug another officer

A police spokesperson said; 'Members of the department had facilitated those officers who were turning themselves in to that location

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cer-HUGS-fellow-cop-booked.html#ixzz3bVrIr3jv

 

[ohreally]

PICTURED: Officers arrested in Freddie Gray murder being taken to jail WITHOUT handcuffs as one suspect HUGS fellow cop before being booked

Three of the officers in the Freddie Gray murder case were seen being taken into booking without handcuffs

Caesar R. Goodson Jr., William G. Porter and Edward M. Nero are seen on video casually entering Central Booking on May 1

Goodson, who is being charged with second-degree murder, even takes some time to hug another officer

A police spokesperson said; 'Members of the department had facilitated those officers who were turning themselves in to that location

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cer-HUGS-fellow-cop-booked.html#ixzz3bVrIr3jv

I have no problem with this. Handcuffs are for the public and officer safety. Also for escapes. They turned themselves in, so I don't see why they would run. The six officers don't have a problem with the police (politicians maybe), and understand that this is their job and they must do it weather they agree with it or not.
Requests are often made not to handcuff in front of their children, in front of co-workers and such. If an officer feels secure in the situation they may honor the request. I have seen it done.

 

[BirdycatNY]

"The Timeline of Freddie Gray’s Arrest and the Charges Filed"
New York Times, UPDATED May 21 Related Article
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...more-police-department-map-timeline.html?_r=0

Stop No. 3 (8:59 a.m.)- Officer Porter helped Mr. Gray from the floor of the van to the bench, she said, but neither officer belted him in nor requested or rendered medical assistance.

Stop No. 4Ms. Mosby said Officer Goodson was met here by Officers Nero, Miller and Porter. Sgt. Alicia D. White and Officers Porter and Goodson observed “Mr. Gray unresponsive on the floor,” Ms. Mosby said. Sergeant White spoke to the back of Mr. Gray’s head, and he did not respond. “Despite Mr. Gray’s seriously deteriorating medical condition, no medical assistance was rendered or summoned for Mr. Gray at that time by any officer,” Ms. Mosby said. The additional prisoner was loaded into the van on the opposite side. For the fifth time, according to Ms. Mosby, Officer Goodson failed to restrain Mr. Gray with a seatbelt.

This may be a silly question, but is it possible Mr. Gray attempted to get up from his seat after Stop 3 and slipped and hit his head prior to Stop 4? I once hurt my neck/head when I walked and slipped on an icy sidewalk, it's been over a year and my neck still bothers me from time to time. I wonder if there are a number of issues that Mr. Gray may have had (ie if he had ingested some drug/intoxication, and/or hurt himself running and/or slipped in the van while leg restraints if he tried to stand up or if van floor slippery).

Eta- Or is it possible FG sustained injuries if he laid down on seat and fell on the floor in such a way that could cause his injuries (ie like if he fell asleep, due to intoxication, and van hit pothole, then FG fell on van floor where bolt stuck out). I am not a medical professional so don't know if it's possible based on FG's injuries/autopsy, toxicology etc? Just hypos and tia/

 

[BirdycatNY]

I have no problem with this. Handcuffs are for the public and officer safety. Also for escapes. They turned themselves in, so I don't see why they would run. The six officers don't have a problem with the police (politicians maybe), and understand that this is their job and they must do it weather they agree with it or not.
Requests are often made not to handcuff in front of their children, in front of co-workers and such. If an officer feels secure in the situation they may honor the request. I have seen it done.

The six LEO officers voluntarily turned themselves in, so it seems like a non-issue to me, but could be wrong.

From the article, "Officers in Freddie Gray case taken to jail without handcuffs," http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-bpd-video-20150528-story.html ""While an individual turning himself in is not a regular occurrence, it is not unusual when an agreement is made between attorneys, the office of the state's attorney and the department for individuals to turn themselves in to a predetermined location where they will then be taken into custody," Lt. Sarah Connolly, a spokeswoman, said Wednesday..."Doug Ward, director of the Johns Hopkins University's Division of Public Safety Leadership, said policies allow officers to exercise discretion when using handcuffs on suspects."They were not going to run or resist," he said. "They were cooperating."'

Additionally, I didn't know about various methods of restraints LE departments may use and various issues LE face when detaining/restraining individuals and how involved methods are.

According to article "Safe Prisoner Transport - Follow these best practices for moving arrestees between facilities," http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2013/05/safe-prisoner-transport.aspx different restraints are used depending on circumstances.

From the article, “A common misconception is, ‘They’re handcuffed so they’re safe,” says Harmon. “If I have my hands cuffed behind me, I can still kick you, knee you, head-butt you, bite you, wrestle you to the ground, shoulder-butt you. I can do a lot of things with my body as an attack to create a lot of harm on the officer.”...“The training that we give officers on what we call our procedure of stacking includes constant monitoring of the subject, not being complacent in your duties,” adds ASP trainer Harmon.

Jmo/

 

[dandy]

"The Timeline of Freddie Gray’s Arrest and the Charges Filed"
New York Times, UPDATED May 21 Related Article
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...more-police-department-map-timeline.html?_r=0



This may be a silly question, but is it possible Mr. Gray attempted to get up from his seat after Stop 3 and slipped and hit his head prior to Stop 4? I once hurt my neck/head when I walked and slipped on an icy sidewalk, it's been over a year and my neck still bothers me from time to time. I wonder if there are a number of issues that Mr. Gray may have had (ie if he had ingested some drug/intoxication, and/or hurt himself running and/or slipped in the van while leg restraints if he tried to stand up or if van floor slippery).

Eta- Or is it possible FG sustained injuries if he laid down on seat and fell on the floor in such a way that could cause his injuries (ie like if he fell asleep, due to intoxication, and van hit pothole, then FG fell on van floor where bolt stuck out). I am not a medical professional so don't know if it's possible based on FG's injuries/autopsy, toxicology etc? Just hypos and tia/

not silly at all! i'm thinking along the lines of a seizure - and wondering if e/r records would show this - or would the result of a seizure show up in the autopsy? will they be able to separate what potential damage the e/r staff did - which is quite common when faced with an acute patient - that's what i'm told so imo.

an interesting editorial in baltimore sun (no author listed) on why a change of venue should be denied. how the heck can 6 x 12 x ???# alternates be found in any city/county? i wonder if the trials will also be run simultaneously. omg - this could turn into a circus: http://www.baltimoresun.com/bal-mos...-universoul-circus-20150529-photogallery.html

oh - quote from article: Not only are Baltimore jurors often more sympathetic to the defense when police officers are on trial, they are also generally more reluctant to return guilty verdicts against anyone accused of a serious crime unless prosecutors can present a near airtight case for conviction. City jurors want to see convincing evidence that defendants actually committed the crimes they are charged with, and its up to the prosecution to lay out lay out the facts in a way that meets or exceeds the standard of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact, the biggest complaint about city juries is that they let too many people off who they should have convicted rather than that they send too many innocent people to prison.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/editorial/bs-ed-venue-20150529-story.html

edit - hmmmm - looking at the nytimes link - there's no max. sentence for "misconduct in office" :thinking:

 

[ohreally]

Has the judge ruled on any of the motions yet?
Also, at the time of the hearing can the judge drop any charges that he feels there is no evidence to support the charge?
I hope they get a strong judge in this case. One that is all about the law. One that is not influenced by the politics of the case, or concerns for riots when making his decisions.

 

[DR3AM3R]

IMO it takes a whole bunch of force to break a neck, and while anythings possible, just not sure if any sort of seizure or even bar bumps in the road could have caused such sever trauma

I was in a pretty bad car accident last year, my neck and back were broken and i had a shattered pelvis, we were tboned by an suv pulling out on a two lane highway, it was alot of force to cause those injuries

Ok back to my point lol, i was in an extreme accident and while I'm not a doctor, I can't find any way to understand how anyone could physically achieve those results in a somewhat confined space, I know everyones body is different but i was in a violent accident that put me in th icu for a month, and my spine wasn't nearly severed in two, thank god for that

I know this is a hot button issue, and everyones emotions are running high, but all black people are not criminals and all police officers are not crooked, the reason all the "bad" news about the police plays in the media more often imo is because you usually only see the extreme on msm, they want ratings, another reason is its rather shocking to some when anyone dies in custody for what seem like minor offenses

I just hope everyone can try to respect each others POV and opinions, and try on each others shoes sometimes MOO

 

[BirdycatNY]

not silly at all! i'm thinking along the lines of a seizure - and wondering if e/r records would show this - or would the result of a seizure show up in the autopsy? will they be able to separate what potential damage the e/r staff did - which is quite common when faced with an acute patient - that's what i'm told so imo....

IMO it takes a whole bunch of force to break a neck, and while anythings possible, just not sure if any sort of seizure or even bar bumps in the road could have caused such sever trauma

I was in a pretty bad car accident last year, my neck and back were broken and i had a shattered pelvis, we were tboned by an suv pulling out on a two lane highway, it was alot of force to cause those injuries...

Yes, I agree it would take serious impact to cause FG's injuries, but I wonder if a van was going 40 mph, and one who is possibly intoxicated and restrained tries to stand up and neck falls on bolt if that would be. (I think the bolt on the floor in itself could cause more injury than if someone just fell on empty floor, ie if hit head on metal bolt it could probably fracture head, but IDK?). I think medical forensics experts will be able to tell A LOT more than anyone knows with FG's medical records and autopsy report(s). Plus other forensics (ie in/on van) will likely provide better picture. Seizures also cause jerking movements and it would seem like quick jerking movements if Mr. Gray's neck fell on bolt would seriously harm him. I think one is supposed to keep people who suffer from seizures away from objects and other dangerous while having seizures, but again not a medical professional, I have a very young relative who suffers from seizures. Also, I would think any medical factors like osteoporosis or brittle bones would be a factor. A fall is much different for let's say an elderly woman suffering from osteoporosis than one with healthy bones, people can break hips from a fall. But all hypo and speculation. I think the only known is neck injury was only injury, not bruising/other fractures.

The sources quoted by the Washington-based station said the medical examiner had determined Gray's death was caused by a catastrophic injury after he slammed into the back of the police transport van while inside it, "apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van." http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/30/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-death-investigation/

Jmo/

 

[BirdycatNY]

I know this is a hot button issue, and everyones emotions are running high, but all black people are not criminals and all police officers are not crooked, the reason all the "bad" news about the police plays in the media more often imo is because you usually only see the extreme on msm, they want ratings, another reason is its rather shocking to some when anyone dies in custody for what seem like minor offenses
I just hope everyone can try to respect each others POV and opinions, and try on each others shoes sometimes MOO

an interesting editorial in Baltimore sun (no author listed) on why a change of venue should be denied. how the heck can 6 x 12 x ???# alternates be found in any city/county? i wonder if the trials will also be run simultaneously.

Opinion piece is long-winded (like my post, sorry), but otherwise no comment and judge is going to rule on motions. The most important issue in cases is to have complete evidence and facts. Things like autopsy are not available publicly, so maybe the media is focusing on other things. The media works well sometimes, but I don't quite understand all the ancillary reporting, some of the reporting is...

BBM Totally agree and I think WSers are pretty respectful of that, as much as it gets heated, because most want the facts and evidence and truth of what happened in any case. Jmo/

 

[BirdycatNY]

Has the judge ruled on any of the motions yet? Also, at the time of the hearing can the judge drop any charges that he feels there is no evidence to support the charge? I hope they get a strong judge in this case....

I am not sure about hearings and haven't read much except July 2, 2015 arraignment date. I think (but I could be wrong) is no longer any PC/preliminary hearing due to GJ. AFAIK judge hasn't ruled on any motions. You can check out any case filings/motions on: http://www.mdcourts.gov/clerks/baltimore/

Jmo/

 

[DR3AM3R]

I just can't wrap my head around this, I know 99.9% of officers are just spending another day at work, even in baltimore, most of the calls are just a hassle, non-violent non-confrontational, my kid didn't come home on time, my neighbors dog is barking etc

Their lives are always on the line, even then, they must take precaution, casual left turn light is out can turn into a shootout, although its rare, they just want to get home like we all do!

The only problem I have is with the *hush* of it all, 6 people are charged, and not because 6 people did something wrong, I'm conflicted on this because I understand the police need for a unified force, they have to have each others back for safety reasons, but there are alot of police officers and to say they are all upstanding is very naive

I love the police! But plz don't stand up for your brothers who made a mistake, one swift kick was all it took imo, one frustrated officer who didn't plan on killing anyone! But is obviously scared after of life in prison

I think it was a mistake, and they should just be honest, he or she just wanted him to calm down, and they hit him in a vital point on accident

If they just "ratted" out their peer lives would've been saved today, and I think an accidental death would have a minimum sentence.

All people are human, and we all make bad choices, I consider all officers upstanding, even though I have encountered a couple kind of offensive, like the one who slapped his daughter in the face extremely hard at my childrens' bus stop

I'm sorry this all happened, I understand the pain from both sides and I just wish humans weren't at this point.