Sentencing and beyond- Jodi Arias General Discussion #1

[Steve44]

I have been far far away from thinking of jodi lately soooo what's going on with the restitution hearing?

Feel like I've been living under a rock,haven't been on WS for so long


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The restitution hearing was rescheduled for the 22nd.

 

[T-4-2]

On the subject of things found/not found (KY bottle, condom, condom wrapper) did the scratched photo cd (cd's?) ever turn up? Or any pieces of cd's? Didn't Jodi say Travis was so enraged about a scratched cd that he threw it at a wall, it broke, and one of the pieces bounced off the wall and hit her? I know she says they couldn't look at the photos because of the virus on Travis's computer, but she also says the problem was that the cd's were scratched. Also, does anyone recall whether or not JM asked her why she brought these cd's at all, since according to her, she didn't leave Yreka with the intention of visiting Travis?

I used to think that if there ever were any cd's, Jodi used them to make Travis see her one last time. But that never really made much sense to me, because I don't believe he'd want to save any pictures that she'd taken -- but then again, he still had the shaving picture on his Myspace page. After reading his pleas for the return of his journals, I think Jodi told him she'd return them if he agreed to see her one last time. "You'll do 'almost anything' to get your journals back? OK then, just let me take some pictures of you in the shower, then I'll let you have your journals and I promise you'll never hear from me again." Maybe?

Also -- did the ring ever turn up?

Sorry if this has all been discussed at length elsewhere.

 

[T-4-2]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't AZLawyer think that the killer was calling the shots more in the penalty retrial than in the original trial? I remember thinking the same--the attempts at impeaching certain witnesses, Deanna Reid for example, were just so far over the top. Such a complete waste of time.

I realize this has little to do with your point, but your post reminded me of it.

Waaaaaaay back at the very beginning of the unrelenting nightmare Jodi inflicted on the world, I think on Day 2 of her interrogation with Detective Flores, she says something like "maybe I should get a lawyer." Det. Flores tells her it's her choice, he can't advise her either way. She then asks if she'd still be able to talk with Det. Flores if she had a lawyer, and he tells her any lawyer would want to cut off direct contact with investigators. To which Little Miss Pro Se responds (something like), "Well even if I get a lawyer I won't necessarily do what he says, maybe I could just get some advice."

So, yeah, I'm sure she had Nurmi jumping through hoops and I'm sure that's a big part of why he can't stand her (but it may have helped with his weight loss).

 

[T-4-2]

^That is reality. According to Jodi's "reality" her swamp cooler is working really well. So well, that she needs to buy 2 sweatshirts from the commissary so she can wear them at the same time. :facepalm: She's using reverse psychology to get her commissary account topped up. She just wants money for candy and treats. Two sweatshirts in Arizona in June, my butt!

https://www.facebook.com/JuanMartin...5700933290158/398024740391108/?type=1&theater

I agree it's an attempt at reverse psychology, but I'm not sure if money is the primary goal or if she just thinks she can actually make anyone believe that she is not sweating puddles in PV. She knows the idea of her suffering makes the "haters" happy, and she'll say any absurd thing she can think of to deny them the satisfaction. So -- her cell is fresh and clean, the rodents are cute, the staff are professional and pleasant, the food is a step up from Estrella, etc. If social media started taking any satisfaction from her being cold, she'd manage to get messages out about how great it is that summer is finally here

 

[grammieto5]

I live in Phoenix; I deal with the same heat, the same humidity, cold rain, and the monsoons. All of us who live in Arizona will deal with the same weather as the evil one. I do not believe the evil ones’ living conditions are inhumane. I believe they are just perfect. In fact if she did not have a swamp cooler I would be fine with that.

 

[Steve44]

Yes, like the omnipotence she felt when she thought she would never be caught, charged & convicted for Travis' murder, the complete confidence exibited in her "no jury will ever convict me" statement, having the gall to attend his memorial service in Mesa, then getting a guy's phone number on the flight home (probably another lie). She doesn't think like the rest of us due to her psychopathy. The universe revolves around her. She actually believes her own lies, but what we identify as lies are her reality.
She'll do fine in prison, where of course many of her cell mates are just like her. But I have said it before, if she feels she has lost control over time this will get to her and she will committ suicide.

I'm not sure I would say she believes her own lies, as much as I would say she probably places no particular value on the truth.

In order to value the truth for its own sake, particularly in circumstances that would be unfavorable to yourself, you have to value the other person's point of view over your own, since the truth in this circumstance would be of more benefit to them than you.

That kind of calculus is probably completely foreign to her, she would probably never encounter a situation where she deems someone elses point of view as more important than her own.

 

[T-4-2]

I'm not sure I would say she believes her own lies, as much as I would say she probably places no particular value on the truth.

In order to value the truth for its own sake, particularly in circumstances that would be unfavorable to yourself, you have to value the other person's point of view over your own, since the truth in this circumstance would be of more benefit to them than you.

That kind of calculus is probably completely foreign to her, she would probably never encounter a situation where she deems someone elses point of view as more important than her own.

I agree.... and yet... wasn't it the truth of her failure to insinuate herself -- long term -- into the lives of Travis and his friends that made her decide to murder him and then cause his friends and family as much additional pain as possible? I think when it concerns her, actual reality-based "truth" is extremely important, to the point of obsession. Her fantasy-based truths (ie lies) merely serve a purpose. Clearly, she'll say whatever, whenever, to whomever if it furthers some agenda of hers. She knows that until you give someone a reason to distrust you, they'll probably assume you're telling them the truth. Once she has lost somebody's trust, I think she starts a kind of cat-and-mouse game of re-establishing trust and losing it again, over and over.

As an outsider, psychopath chameleon, I think life is a chess match for her. She's constantly studying the board (or boards), considering not only her next move but the one after that and the one after that, weighing potential advantages and risks. For her to win, somebody else has to lose. She can probably find a way to turn even a stalemate into a win. And I just remembered -- "checkmate" comes from the Persian "shah mat," which can mean either "the king is dead" or "the king is helpless." I'm sure Jodi is not a chess player, but if she were, I can readily imagine her saying this over Travis's body.

 

[deedee21]

Steve44 Sure Jodi is controlling. She had two motives. Jodi heard that it drives the family crazy wondering if Travis was aware of what was happening at that point in time. She said it to be mean. She hesitated before she said it. She new she was about to reveal that the fog was lifted. I equate it with jodi smiling at TAs family members when the jurors were not present.

 

[Steve44]

I agree.... and yet... wasn't it the truth of her failure to insinuate herself -- long term -- into the lives of Travis and his friends that made her decide to murder him and then cause his friends and family as much additional pain as possible? I think when it concerns her, actual reality-based "truth" is extremely important, to the point of obsession. Her fantasy-based truths (ie lies) merely serve a purpose. Clearly, she'll say whatever, whenever, to whomever if it furthers some agenda of hers. She knows that until you give someone a reason to distrust you, they'll probably assume you're telling them the truth. Once she has lost somebody's trust, I think she starts a kind of cat-and-mouse game of re-establishing trust and losing it again, over and over.

As an outsider, psychopath chameleon, I think life is a chess match for her. She's constantly studying the board (or boards), considering not only her next move but the one after that and the one after that, weighing potential advantages and risks. For her to win, somebody else has to lose. She can probably find a way to turn even a stalemate into a win. And I just remembered -- "checkmate" comes from the Persian "shah mat," which can mean either "the king is dead" or "the king is helpless." I'm sure Jodi is not a chess player, but if she were, I can readily imagine her saying this over Travis's body.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Wanting your schemes to succeed, particularly when those schemes are based on lies, is not valuing the truth. Also, I'm not sure I agree with you when you say her goal was to cause Travis' family and friends as much pain as possible in the aftermath as it being an accurate picture of her motivation, even though it's an accurate picture of her actions and their effects.

I'm not saying she isn't capable of vindictive motivations and actions meant only to hurt, she undoubtedly is, but to attribute all her motivation to only that is too simplistic, imo, primarily because it gives too much emphasis on her considering others' point of view, however perversely, an area where she's particularly lacking.

I think another way of explaining this is to say that for someone with a relatively normal psychology to have done and said everything Jodi did during the trial it would probably be accurate to say they did it in order to hurt the friends and family, but I'm assuming Jodi is a psychopath, and so any motivation that puts the appreciation of someone elses point of view as a foundation, (in this case understanding their point of view for the purpose of hurting them) is suspect. While such an understanding and subsequent motivation is evil enough, and we all believe Jodi is evil, that alone isn't sufficient to actually understand her behavior in light of her psychopathology. Further, for her actions to be evil, her understanding of their point of view is not actually required, they simply have to be so self-centered, and so exclusively beneficial to herself alone, that the effect is the same.

 

[Steve44]

Steve44 Sure Jodi is controlling. She had two motives. Jodi heard that it drives the family crazy wondering if Travis was aware of what was happening at that point in time. She said it to be mean. She hesitated before she said it. She new she was about to reveal that the fog was lifted. I equate it with jodi smiling at TAs family members when the jurors were not present.

What was the other motive? You only mentioned one.

 

[salberg7]

Interesting. What do you mean by control over time?

The killer will try her best to control her environment...charm the staff, try to establish control over other inmates by lying and manipulation and then will watch her supporters drop off to a trickle (if any stay around), interest in her will fade, family won't visit, her entire existence will be dependent on things she can't control, ie waiting for appeals, waiting,waiting and waiting some more, her looks will begin to fade and noone will care, and being a narcissist this will overwhelm her. She will begin feeling helpless over her destiny, run out of people or circumstances to blame, and will seek the cowards way out. I am thinking this will occur after 15 to 20 years, and she will try to committ suicide. She said herself, "death is the ultimate freedom", & although she doesn't yet believe that now, give her a decade or two. In the interim she will try every trick in her arsenal to manipulate and survive through denial, as I don't think she still feels any accountability or remorse for her crime.

 

[salberg7]

On the subject of things found/not found (KY bottle, condom, condom wrapper) did the scratched photo cd (cd's?) ever turn up? Or any pieces of cd's? Didn't Jodi say Travis was so enraged about a scratched cd that he threw it at a wall, it broke, and one of the pieces bounced off the wall and hit her? I know she says they couldn't look at the photos because of the virus on Travis's computer, but she also says the problem was that the cd's were scratched. Also, does anyone recall whether or not JM asked her why she brought these cd's at all, since according to her, she didn't leave Yreka with the intention of visiting Travis?

I used to think that if there ever were any cd's, Jodi used them to make Travis see her one last time. But that never really made much sense to me, because I don't believe he'd want to save any pictures that she'd taken -- but then again, he still had the shaving picture on his Myspace page. After reading his pleas for the return of his journals, I think Jodi told him she'd return them if he agreed to see her one last time. "You'll do 'almost anything' to get your journals back? OK then, just let me take some pictures of you in the shower, then I'll let you have your journals and I promise you'll never hear from me again." Maybe?

Also -- did the ring ever turn up?

Sorry if this has all been discussed at length elsewhere.[/QUOTE

Also, her clothes. During one of her phone conversations with Detective Flores she said she left some of her clothes at Travis' & wanted to know if she could retrieve them, but then said something to the effect that it didn't really matter.
I have always thought about the clothes as well as the shattered CD's. So much we will never know, unless more documents are released by Maricopa county.

 

[Steve44]

The killer will try her best to control her environment...charm the staff, try to establish control over other inmates by lying and manipulation and then will watch her supporters drop off to a trickle (if any stay around), interest in her will fade, family won't visit, her entire existence will be dependent on things she can't control, ie waiting for appeals, waiting,waiting and waiting some more, her looks will begin to fade and noone will care, and being a narcissist this will overwhelm her. She will begin feeling helpless over her destiny, run out of people or circumstances to blame, and will seek the cowards way out. I am thinking this will occur after 15 to 20 years, and she will try to committ suicide. She said herself, "death is the ultimate freedom", & although she doesn't yet believe that now, give her a decade or two. In the interim she will try every trick in her arsenal to manipulate and survive through denial, as I don't think she still feels any accountability or remorse for her crime.

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure she'd resort to suicide, an alternative perhaps would be to become more and more irrational, and eventually have a psychotic break, partially as a defense mechanism, and partially because the act of suicide itself would in a sense be admitting defeat, and giving her 'enemies' the victory.

Another possibility, as an alternative to suicide, would be becoming more and more violent towards others, directing the destructive energy outward instead of inward, that also would be a defense mechanism in the service of avoiding responsibility for her plight. Another factor in support of this is that we know she's already demonstrated tremendous outward-directed violence when her facade/identity was challenged.

I agree with you that she'll never accept responsibility for her actions in any conventional sense. There may be a subtle recognition on an almost subconscious level that her actions led her to where she is, but I think she will always place the overwhelming, looming blame on the failures others to meet her expectations, to 'do what they were supposed to do'. Her plans were never faulty, in and of themselves, it was her 'instruments', (the entire outside world), that failed her.

 

[Steve44]

I agree it's an attempt at reverse psychology, but I'm not sure if money is the primary goal or if she just thinks she can actually make anyone believe that she is not sweating puddles in PV. She knows the idea of her suffering makes the "haters" happy, and she'll say any absurd thing she can think of to deny them the satisfaction. So -- her cell is fresh and clean, the rodents are cute, the staff are professional and pleasant, the food is a step up from Estrella, etc. If social media started taking any satisfaction from her being cold, she'd manage to get messages out about how great it is that summer is finally here

Sounds great! I've got a vacation coming up, I'd like a room with a view, please.

 

[ElleElle]

It seems it is what I thought was Juan's alleged prosecuterial misconduct.

http://ktar.com/22/1842007/Arizona-...osecutor-Juan-Martinez-after-ethics-complaint

"Two years ago, fans were seen asking Martinez for autographs and pictures outside of the courthouse. He later said that he has only used the front door of the courthouse once and that is when the fans found him."

"Despite Martinez signing the autograph, KTAR Legal Analyst Monica Lindstrom said at the time he was not guilty of misconduct.

"I didn't think this was misconduct at all because it's not like he's standing outside the courthouse flagging people down saying, 'Hey, $5 and you can have my autograph,'" said Lindstrom, adding that, if he knew jurors were present, it would have been a different story. "

BBM ~ Exactly.

 

[FelicityLemon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't AZLawyer think that the killer was calling the shots more in the penalty retrial than in the original trial? I remember thinking the same--the attempts at impeaching certain witnesses, Deanna Reid for example, were just so far over the top. Such a complete waste of time.

I realize this has little to do with your point, but your post reminded me of it.

I agree that she was in charge as much as she could be. I actually feel empathy for KN, as despicable as the tactics were, he was stuck in a prison of sorts by the judge not allowing him to quit. Nightmare for him.


My opinion is that ja is a black hole of humanity with an insatiable need to destroy anyone whom she perceives as "good" because she continually compares herself to others and comes up short.

The sustained attempt at humiliating lovely Deanna Reid is one example. There was no reason for what they did to her in court. That went so far beyond anything resembling a defense for the defendant. So much of this case had zero to do with a moral or ethical defense case.

While I may have some pity for KN, I have zero respect for JW. If I had to choose between being defending by either of them, I wouldn't want a lawyer who kowtows to me. JW is that. She doesn't give me the impression of strength and for me, she doesn't inspire much confidence in ability. That's just my impression, it has nothing to do with her client - obviously has nothing to do with her client since it's also KN's client.

 

[Steve44]

It seems it is what I thought was Juan's alleged prosecuterial misconduct.

http://ktar.com/22/1842007/Arizona-...osecutor-Juan-Martinez-after-ethics-complaint

"Two years ago, fans were seen asking Martinez for autographs and pictures outside of the courthouse. He later said that he has only used the front door of the courthouse once and that is when the fans found him."

"Despite Martinez signing the autograph, KTAR Legal Analyst Monica Lindstrom said at the time he was not guilty of misconduct.

"I didn't think this was misconduct at all because it's not like he's standing outside the courthouse flagging people down saying, 'Hey, $5 and you can have my autograph,'" said Lindstrom, adding that, if he knew jurors were present, it would have been a different story. "

BBM ~ Exactly.

Far from proving prosecutorial misconduct, all the autograph incident proves is that Juan is a prosecutor + a decent human being. What was he supposed to do, tell them to *advertiser censored**off?

It's interesting that no one ever approached Wilmott or Nurmi for an autograph, probably because the public at large finds them repulsive.

It's not illegal to be liked, nor to respond with courtesy. I could see an issue if Juan had exploited it or cultivated it, but of course, he didn't.

 

[Steve44]

On the subject of things found/not found (KY bottle, condom, condom wrapper) did the scratched photo cd (cd's?) ever turn up? Or any pieces of cd's? Didn't Jodi say Travis was so enraged about a scratched cd that he threw it at a wall, it broke, and one of the pieces bounced off the wall and hit her? I know she says they couldn't look at the photos because of the virus on Travis's computer, but she also says the problem was that the cd's were scratched. Also, does anyone recall whether or not JM asked her why she brought these cd's at all, since according to her, she didn't leave Yreka with the intention of visiting Travis?

I used to think that if there ever were any cd's, Jodi used them to make Travis see her one last time. But that never really made much sense to me, because I don't believe he'd want to save any pictures that she'd taken -- but then again, he still had the shaving picture on his Myspace page. After reading his pleas for the return of his journals, I think Jodi told him she'd return them if he agreed to see her one last time. "You'll do 'almost anything' to get your journals back? OK then, just let me take some pictures of you in the shower, then I'll let you have your journals and I promise you'll never hear from me again." Maybe?

Also -- did the ring ever turn up?

Sorry if this has all been discussed at length elsewhere.[/QUOTE

Also, her clothes. During one of her phone conversations with Detective Flores she said she left some of her clothes at Travis' & wanted to know if she could retrieve them, but then said something to the effect that it didn't really matter.
I have always thought about the clothes as well as the shattered CD's. So much we will never know, unless more documents are released by Maricopa county.

I don't have much interest in these things, I guess because I don't see what would change if they were known. We only ever saw a small part of the life of Jodi and Travis, and, thank goodness, the important information was brought out - that Jodi, for whatever her psychological reasons, crossed a line that no human being should be allowed to cross without consequences. The evidence that came out and the facts we know support and prove her guilt, and was enough to secure justice. If there's anything among the myriad things we'll likely never know that could change that, I'd be interested in it, but I don't think there is.

 

[cricket49]

Does anyone know if they had the restitution hearing yet?

 

[Steve44]

My opinion is that ja is a black hole of humanity with an insatiable need to destroy anyone whom she perceives as "good" because she continually compares herself to others and comes up short.

But what's her concept of 'good'? I think she wanted the good things in life for herself without any concept of having to work for them or deserve them. She deserved them because she wanted them, and it was nobody's business or place to question her or be in opposition to her wishes, and if everybody just fell in line with that she would have been fine.

I think the impossibility of that actually happening is where her interpersonal conflicts came from. Impossible because her entire concept of living was one of taking and never giving, at least not without getting something of equal or greater value in return. At the same time, the impossibility of living this way was, well, impossible for her see. So when she was called upon to 'pay up' so to speak, to earn her keep, she had an enemy, and went on a mission.