ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #4

[shellbythesea]

What is the status of the case now? Are there people searching still in the area, etc? Any locals can tell us?

Nothing new

 

[bluesneakers]

I understand the confusion. Maybe it does seem like I am being contradictory, but if we could get into other avenues of investigation...like I have bouncing around in my head...I could explain it better. I do think the clerk mentioning the child being "filthy" and buying candy is pretty specific. Could she be mistaken about the time or perhaps not the time, but the actual day? Sure. And I would accept it as being honest mistake. Could the dad simply be mistaken about a trip to the store and the timeline when he has been asked to account for every single minute of his day by LE? Not likely to be "an honest mistake" if he is off on his timeline. Does that make it as clear as mud now?

Clear as mud: A clerk messes up the time or day and it's an honest mistake. But a father who's child is missing, who is frantic and desperate makes a mistake on his timeline and it's not "an honest mistake."

 

[rkf]

I understand the confusion. Maybe it does seem like I am being contradictory, but if we could get into other avenues of investigation...like I have bouncing around in my head...I could explain it better. I do think the clerk mentioning the child being "filthy" and buying candy is pretty specific. Could she be mistaken about the time or perhaps not the time, but the actual day? Sure. And I would accept it as being honest mistake. Could the dad simply be mistaken about a trip to the store and the timeline when he has been asked to account for every single minute of his day by LE? Not likely to be "an honest mistake" if he is off on his timeline. Does that make it as clear as mud now?

My understanding is the store clerk was interviewed relatively quickly (within days) of DeOrr's disappearance. I don't think it's very likely that she was confused on the day or time by 5 hours. Maybe it wasn't DeOrr or maybe it wasn't DK. Maybe it wasn't either of them, but I believe she saw a filthy, crying blond boy with a man driving a black truck who gave him candy. No mention of a woman with them. I don't see why this man driving a black truck is "a problem". I don't see why the people the clerk saw had to be DK and DeOrr, and had to be much earlier in the day. If DK and DeOrr weren't there at 6 pm, fine. It doesn't mean the clerk didn't see someone else and was mistaken. Why would the parent insist that the people the clerk saw were they and only they? It feels like DK is trying to force the sighting to fit within his narrative, when it could still be a valid sighting, even if it doesn't fit. Does that make sense?

 

[IDTater]

I don't know why, but that made me blink. Old friends, new friends, it doesn't matter. I just remember reading way, way back about there being a connection of a family member to the sheriffs department and six degrees of separation came to mind. I'm not reading anything into it. Just shows what a small world it is.

Especially that corner of Idaho. Nearly all of my family lives in the same area that DeOrr's parents are from. My husband is from out of state but has a job that takes him to that area often. There have been so many cases of him being involved with my family in a business capacity that we have a running joke about anyone he meets being my cousin.

 

[rkf]

Clear as mud: A clerk messes up the time or day and it's an honest mistake. But a father who's child is missing, who is frantic and desperate makes a mistake on his timeline and it's not "an honest mistake."

I think it would be a lot more important to the father of a missing child what he was doing the day his child disappeared than it would be for a clerk to remember details about one of a zillion blond boys who came into the store with a man driving a pick up truck in Idaho! There were reasons that this blond boy stuck out in her mind. Having said that, I don't think the clerk is mistaken about seeing a crying, filthy blond boy at 6 pm. I think if LE deduced that she was mistaken, they would have made that clear as they did with the Walmart "sighting". By now they've looked at video tape if it exists and receipt tape. They know what JM and DK bought on their trip at 1 pm, other than candy, and they know what the man with the boy bought at 6 pm. If the clerk was some kook just looking for attention, she would have spoken to MSM and LE would have already dismissed her information. I would assume the clerk has seen photo lineups that included DK and IR. Either she wasn't able to pick one of them out, neither of them was the man she saw, or LE is keeping her identification of someone quiet. I don't see any other options. But if DeOrr was kidnapped, why would his father insist that it couldn't be DeOrr at the store at 6 pm?

Because we have two stories that don't jibe, I think the store sighting is an important clue to what happened to DeOrr. Certainly it's important to the timeline.

 

[TxJan1971]

The statement puzzled me if she meant the boy was filthy or the man was filthy.

Although we can most likely "assume" it is the "child" who was dirty, I, too, can see where it could imply the "gentleman" was dirty. (see transcript below)

****

Transcript (Thanks to Aeronomy - previous thread, post 286)

Reporter: Is there any rumors that you've seen or anything you want to clear up, Jessica?

JM (Mom): I just . . . Somebody at the store, um, in Leadore, said, it was one of the ladies that had worked at the store said that they saw, um, a gentleman and a younger blonde boy matching our description of our son, really filthy, buying candy for him and he was just bawling, in a black truck. That is the only . . .

DK: Here's the problem.

JM: . . . other . . .

DK: My pickup truck's black.

JM: [indicating DK] He drives a black truck.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ground-10-July-2015-2&p=11946752#post11946752

---

One other minor thing I noted that may mean nothing at all:

Mom (JM) says: "Someone that worked at the store saw a gentleman and a blonde boy...

Note that JM did not say: "Someone at the store said they saw "my husband," (or boyfriend, or Deorr Sr or our baby's dad).

Does Mom's use of the word "gentleman" infer that the clerk saw someone OTHER THAN child's dad (DK Sr.) with the crying toddler?

(I totally understand that JM's use of the word "gentleman" could be an innocent use of a word. It could also be a RUMOR as the interviewer indicated. Her use of the word "gentleman" could mean something - or it could mean absolutely nothing at all depending on whether it was relayed to her verbatim from LE, something she read, or something she just assumed like we have all had to do with what little information is available.)

Some of my questions:

1) Why has MSM been able to notify the public so quickly that the "Walmart" sighting was ruled out but we have not yet heard whether or not the 6:00 p.m. clerk sighting has been ruled out?

2) Has the 6:00 p.m. Store Clerk sighting been ruled out?

IF it is still possible the child could have been Deorr, Jr., then:

3) Can we get a MSM confirmation of the day/date/time the store clerk saw the "gentleman," the crying child, and the black truck?

4) Where specifically was the child when seen crying? In the store? Was the "Gentleman" carrying him? Was the child walking beside the man? Did the clerk see them both in the store and then both in the black truck?

5) Was the "Gentleman" the clerk saw at 6:00 p.m. the child's dad (DK, Sr.)?? or...

6) If not the child's dad, was the "Gentleman" the clerk saw at 6:00 p.m. IR?? or...

7) If neither of the above, was the "gentleman" seen with the crying child someone "other than" DK Sr or IR and thus a "complete stranger"?

8) Can we get "the clerk's actual physical description" of the "gentleman" seen with the crying child?

9) Can we get confirmation who it was that was dirty? Was it the child or the gentleman?

10) Can we get a description of the child and what the child was wearing?

11) Can we get confirmation from DK Sr (child's dad) whether anyone else ever had access to or actually drove HIS "black truck" at any time from the time of arrival up to the date they left and if so, day/date/time/place, etc.?

All JMO

 

[rkf]

You weren't asking me but -- hypothetically someone could have intentionally stashed little Deorr somewhere in the wilderness between the camp and the store with the plan of someone else picking him up and taking him away. By stopping in the store it cements the theory of an abduction. He could have been filthy and bawling because he was alone in the elements for a period of time. So the sighting could have been correct that it was little Deorr.

AFAIK JM and DK did not confirm their son was filthy or bawling when they went to the store earlier as a family and I also don't believe they confirmed they bought a candy bar - just that they went to get some things.

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Or unconscious in a trunk...

 

[Jules71]

What was the date of the interview with the parents? As of that date there was supposedly this rumor going around about the store clerk seeing a gentleman and a young blonde boy matching Deorr's description. So where did this rumor come from? The reporter makes reference to social media in that interview. So where was this rumor on social media? Facebook? Comments on a news article shared on Facebook? Has anyone here seen that rumor? Maybe there wasn't really a rumor. Can we track it down? Look at local news posts prior to the interview?

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[Floridian]

I Just can't get past that front door interview. He seemed so shady, and I know he is NOT a suspect, but I do not feel like he was telling the whole story. JMO

OMG.... yes I totally agree. Listen, if im innocent and truly know nothing, U can bet ur sweet a$$ im gonna not be hiding behind my door and act like a stick in the mud..... I would want this baby found, and u and anyone else would know im innocent!!!!!!!!! SHADY SHADY.. Doesnt matter if its him, or any other person, if im at a scene where a baby went missing, I would want that baby found just like u and i do, so therefor, im gonna tell u what i know and what i witnessed, instead of saying, have you talked to the grandpa... wth!! I know everyone is diff and handles things very diff, so this is only how i feel....Who knows, he could be scared.... and he knows what media is insinuating, and he might be innocent, but scared... I just dont know... but, my thoughts are changing the more I look into this..... you have 2 parents that walked off, and old man with problems, and a person along for the trip........ i keep going back to... why did the parents leave this 2 year old on the woods, unfamiliar territory, with a unhealthy old man and stranger... why why why... something is not adding up, and my thoughts are changing allot...

 

[rkf]

I didn't say that. Someone else suggested the clerk recognized DK and Deorr when they were at the store that evening. If the clerk had said it was ONLY Deorr she recognized I would agree it was probably a kidnapper. But the father and son together at 6pm? IMO no way.

eta: I think store clerk saw an adult male and a kid, probably father and son, in a black truck. But the man was not DK.

I think DK said that the clerk recognized him and DeOrr, but he insists it was around 1 pm, not 6 pm. I'm just now wondering if the clerk actually did ID the man she saw as DK to LE. That would explain why he says it was him rather than a stranger with his child or another child. Ahhhh.....

 

[nervous_nellie]

I believe that if LE thought that it could have been the boy and a stranger LE would have had the storekeeper sit down with a sketch artist and they would have attempted to identify the stranger.

 

[IDTater]

My understanding is the store clerk was interviewed relatively quickly (within days) of DeOrr's disappearance. I don't think it's very likely that she was confused on the day or time by 5 hours. Maybe it wasn't DeOrr or maybe it wasn't DK. Maybe it wasn't either of them, but I believe she saw a filthy, crying blond boy with a man driving a black truck who gave him candy. No mention of a woman with them. I don't see why this man driving a black truck is "a problem". I don't see why the people the clerk saw had to be DK and DeOrr, and had to be much earlier in the day. If DK and DeOrr weren't there at 6 pm, fine. It doesn't mean the clerk didn't see someone else and was mistaken. Why would the parent insist that the people the clerk saw were they and only they? It feels like DK is trying to force the sighting to fit within his narrative, when it could still be a valid sighting, even if it doesn't fit. Does that make sense?

Bold mine. Thank you for putting so eloquently into words what I've been trying to express since I watched the interview and listened to DK explain why the 6 pm sighting was actually him sometime before 1 pm. Of course, my next question is, why is he trying so hard to make that narrative stick (square peg in a round hole)?

:gaah:

 

[persimmon]

I was thinking something similar - but if ggp hurt DeOrr due to his dementia, that would be an accident. A terrible, tragic accident, but not something to cover up IMO.

Yes, I would think so and I cannot think of a single parent I know who would ever cover for somebody who hurt their child. I am not saying there aren't screwballs out there who have done it but normal people place their children at the top of the people hierarchy.

 

[TxJan1971]

Or unconscious in a trunk...

or, since it was "nap time" - sleeping soundly somewhere away from the campsite...until he was next seen at 6:00 p.m. by the Leadore store clerk????

Interestingly,

As far as # children same age as Deorr FROM "Leadore" that could possibly have been the one the clerk saw, see below stats. (Unsure how accurate this # actually is but gives a general idea).

Also, of the 2 males "under age 5" in Leadore, we don't know if either of them are age 2 like Deorr. We also don't know if they have blonde hair/brown eyes.

(Note: I'm not sure what "other" nearby towns/cities that I could check population of male children under the age of 5 or as close to age 2 1/2 as possible. If anyone knows what other areas to check population stats I can check that out, too. Not sure how much traffic Leadore sees at that store).

Population Demographics for Leadore, Idaho in 2014 and 2015

Total Population: 105
Male Population: 54

Under 5 years: 2
5 to 9 years: 4
10 to 14 years: 6
15 to 17 years: 1
18 and 19 years: 1
20 years: 0
21 years: 0
22 to 24 years: 1
25 to 29 years: 2
30 to 34 years: 1
35 to 39 years: 3
40 to 44 years: 5
45 to 49 years: 5
50 to 54 years: 4
55 to 59 years: 5
60 and 61 years: 0
62 to 64 years: 3
65 and 66 years: 1
67 to 69 years: 0
70 to 74 years: 1
75 to 79 years: 9
80 to 84 years: 0
85 years and over: 0

https://suburbanstats.org/population/idaho/how-many-people-live-in-leadore

 

[Jules71]

or, since it was "nap time" - sleeping soundly somewhere away from the campsite...until he was next seen at 6:00 p.m. by the Leadore store clerk????

Interestingly,

As far as # children same age as Deorr FROM "Leadore" that could possibly have been the one the clerk saw, see below stats. (Unsure how accurate this # actually is but gives a general idea).

Also, of the 2 males "under age 5" in Leadore, we don't know if either of them are age 2 like Deorr. We also don't know if they have blonde hair/brown eyes.

(Note: I'm not sure what "other" nearby towns/cities that I could check population of male children under the age of 5 or as close to age 2 1/2 as possible. If anyone knows what other areas to check population stats I can check that out, too. Not sure how much traffic Leadore sees at that store).

Population Demographics for Leadore, Idaho in 2014 and 2015

Total Population:105
Male Population:54

Under 5 years:2
5 to 9 years:4
10 to 14 years:6
15 to 17 years:1
18 and 19 years:1
20 years:0
21 years:0
22 to 24 years:1
25 to 29 years:2
30 to 34 years:1
35 to 39 years:3
40 to 44 years:5
45 to 49 years:5
50 to 54 years:4
55 to 59 years:5
60 and 61 years:0
62 to 64 years:3
65 and 66 years:1
67 to 69 years:0
70 to 74 years:1
75 to 79 years:9
80 to 84 years:0
85 years and over:0

https://suburbanstats.org/population/idaho/how-many-people-live-in-leadore

But isn't that store on a highway that might get lots of traffic from travelers passing thru on the way to/from somewhere else?

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[persimmon]

But doesn't ggp live 2 1/2 hours away from the Sheriff's territory? I feel like he calls him "the grandfather" instead of releasing his name. Is it possible the sheriff is saying the three are POIs because they were there, but not suspects at this time because he's hoping a member of the public will come forward with incriminating information? If someone has been deemed "solid" by the sheriff, someone might be more likely to discount some little anecdote or detail as unimportant. If they're POIs, anyone whose heard one of them yell at their kid on the playground might come forward. Just trying to understand the reason for the gradual change in description over the last few weeks.

It does seem the Sheriff refers to him as Grandfather to keep consistent with the efforts made by everyone to keep certain names concealed from the public. However, his name like Reinwand's has already circulated through social media.

 

[rkf]

What was the date of the interview with the parents? As of that date there was supposedly this rumor going around about the store clerk seeing a gentleman and a young blonde boy matching Deorr's description. So where did this rumor come from? The reporter makes reference to social media in that interview. So where was this rumor on social media? Facebook? Comments on a news article shared on Facebook? Has anyone here seen that rumor? Maybe there wasn't really a rumor. Can we track it down? Look at local news posts prior to the interview?

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I'm trying to find it. I saw it mentioned in some comments on an Idaho News article, but am trying to find it in MSM. We should start a list of items/statements we want confirmed and we can attach links as we find them!

 

[rkf]

or, since it was "nap time" - sleeping soundly somewhere away from the campsite...until he was next seen at 6:00 p.m. by the Leadore store clerk????

Interestingly,

As far as # children same age as Deorr FROM "Leadore" that could possibly have been the one the clerk saw, see below stats. (Unsure how accurate this # actually is but gives a general idea).

Also, of the 2 males "under age 5" in Leadore, we don't know if either of them are age 2 like Deorr. We also don't know if they have blonde hair/brown eyes.

(Note: I'm not sure what "other" nearby towns/cities that I could check population of male children under the age of 5 or as close to age 2 1/2 as possible. If anyone knows what other areas to check population stats I can check that out, too. Not sure how much traffic Leadore sees at that store).

Population Demographics for Leadore, Idaho in 2014 and 2015

Total Population: 105
Male Population: 54

Under 5 years: 2
5 to 9 years: 4
10 to 14 years: 6
15 to 17 years: 1
18 and 19 years: 1
20 years: 0
21 years: 0
22 to 24 years: 1
25 to 29 years: 2
30 to 34 years: 1
35 to 39 years: 3
40 to 44 years: 5
45 to 49 years: 5
50 to 54 years: 4
55 to 59 years: 5
60 and 61 years: 0
62 to 64 years: 3
65 and 66 years: 1
67 to 69 years: 0
70 to 74 years: 1
75 to 79 years: 9
80 to 84 years: 0
85 years and over: 0

https://suburbanstats.org/population/idaho/how-many-people-live-in-leadore

That's good sleuthing. I think if it was one of the few kids who lived in town, the clerk might have recognized him. I think of this store as a place that people stop for gas passing through and also supplies for people camping nearby. Little DeOrr wouldn't be in these pop statistics because he lives 2 1/2 hours away.

 

[rkf]

I believe that if LE thought that it could have been the boy and a stranger LE would have had the storekeeper sit down with a sketch artist and they would have attempted to identify the stranger.

Maybe they have? But I guess if that was the case, and she was very sure the little boy was DeOrr, LE would have released the sketch and more info.

 

[Elena]

Which leaves everything wide open.

And also the need to mention "as a family, we went down to get a few things.", the need to let everyone know. Why?