ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #9

[MzOpinion8d]

This is just a quick thought, not meaning to be condemning of the parents:
Since we know DK sr drives a truck and there was some talk of trouble w/ his employer during the unedited initial interview. We never got a complete answer as to what that was all about but he did say his employer had been great about it and was even helping to search.
Now we have the deputy interjecting in the latest interview saying :Yeah! They stopped for diesel. (my words)
Many truckers have a gas/diesel card in case they need to refill.
Could the supposed "problem" w/ DK sr's boss have stemmed from him using that card for personal reasons?
IDK I'm still in need of coffee. Hope that makes some kind of sense. For some reason the deputy interjected the "Yeah!".
jmho

What DeOrr said in the interview was that there were rumors his boss wouldn't let him come off the road to help search. Which was obviously a stupid rumor because he wasn't ON the road in the first place when it happened lol. He mentioned this when they were "setting things straight".

 

[ILOKAL]

Thanks so much for the pics Arnie I have to say I hadn't realized before how hazardous that creek is. I can imagine a small toddler like little Deorr being swept away for some distance before something happening as you described. Or, leaving him the victim of a predator such as a Mountain Lion or wolf. JMO

Neesaki, I TOO am shocked at that creek! Most descriptions of the creek that I've read made it sound like child's play. I'm still trying to find out, if someone knows, how long the creek is and what water does it flow into. I think it's entirely possible that little Deorr stumbled into the creek, and with the flow as strong as it is, I don't imagine he would have been heard. And speaking of mountain lions, not only do they "use" vacated wolf dens, but they use what has been referred to as day beds. At least I think that's what they're called. IOW, as they roam throughout their territory in search of prey, they use these day areas to rest, and they might be located anywhere the prey might be found. Although I still believe it to be quite possible that a mountain lion grabbed little Deorr and quickly disappeared with him, I see where your scenario could also be quite possible.

Anyone know the additional information about Timber Creek? TIA, if you do.

 

[travelbug]

Diesel fuel. Why the differentiation between plain old fuel and diesel fuel? Would diesel fuel be used for anything other than a vehicle's gas tank?

IMO The distinction is made because it connects the purchaser of the diesel to a specific vehicle, time and place. The percentage of personal vehicles that use diesel fuel is small. Also, depending upon the amount of fuel purchased, could the driver have been in a commercial vehicle at the time. As mentioned up-thread, perhaps a company credit card was used to purchase diesel for "personal use". :moo:

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I don't think the diesel thing is a huge issue. His truck probably was a diesel or they could have brought a generator with them. We used to when I'd camp with my dad. Around here (southern Idaho) most people call diesel "diesel" and gasoline "gas". So I guess to me "diesel fuel" just means they stopped to fuel up the truck.

Probably the only significance is that in some areas not all stations sell diesel, so it narrows down the places they would have bought gas.

 

[ILOKAL]

I really think the Grandpa was just trying to emphasize that DeOrr was not physically capable of taking off walking and wandering so far he couldn't be found, rather than saying he has some type of disability or delay. Little kids trip over nothing at times, and out there he was on uneven ground with rocks, sticks, brush, etc that would have made slow going even on the steadiest of feet.

It's natural to want to believe an abduction happened over believing an accident happened, because in an abduction there's a chance the child is alive. The problem here is that this campground is simply NOT easily accessible, and anyone coming or going in a vehicle would be heard, and the likelihood of someone on foot being there, and being able to snatch little D without a sound is miniscule.

The end effect is that in this situation, the parents' belief in abduction ends up making them look suspicious because it's such an unlikely scenario. Please note this isn't me blaming them, just pointing out how their early statements have ended up making them look suspicious rather than hopeful.

Their statements only make the parents look suspicious in the minds of some, but certainly not all. Just want to make that clear for those who just come here to read and be informed.

 

[ClaireNC]

Neesaki, I TOO am shocked at that creek! Most descriptions of the creek that I've read made it sound like child's play. I'm still trying to find out, if someone knows, how long the creek is and what water does it flow into. I think it's entirely possible that little Deorr stumbled into the creek, and with the flow as strong as it is, I don't imagine he would have been heard. And speaking of mountain lions, not only do they "use" vacated wolf dens, but they use what has been referred to as day beds. At least I think that's what they're called. IOW, as they roam throughout their territory in search of prey, they use these day areas to rest, and they might be located anywhere the prey might be found. Although I still believe it to be quite possible that a mountain lion grabbed little Deorr and quickly disappeared with him, I see where your scenario could also be quite possible.

Anyone know the additional information about Timber Creek? TIA, if you do.

I posted a preliminary map tracing the Creek to the Salmon River a couple of weeks ago. I can go back and do a better map if needed.



I found where I originally posted this map: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ground-10-July-2015-5&p=11969132#post11969132

Here is a link to Google Maps that pretty much traces the route of the creek: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Tim...0:0x0!2m2!1d-113.842745!2d45.161084!3e0?hl=en

 

[Jackeee]

Some ATVs run on diesel. Deorr had an ATV during the search, but I don't know if he had it while camping.

Speaking of ATVs, I posted a question a few threads ago about the use of ATVs in a search but did not get an answer.

I realize they can cover a large area in a short amount of time, but since they are so noisy, how would anyone hear someone crying for help? If DeOrr had fallen or stuck somewhere and was not in plain view but was crying, who would hear him? Just something I've wondered about for a while.

 

[Hatfield]

Question ie: critical time loss? Do you know if SAR K9 Resources are closer to the campsite then the SO?

Sorry I have no idea how close any of the searching people or the Sheriff's office was to the campsite.

 

[ILOKAL]

I posted a preliminary map tracing the Creek to the Salmon River a couple of weeks ago. I can go back and do a better map if needed.

View attachment 80281

I'm trying to find out how long Timber Creek is. So it flows between Stone Reservoir and the Salmon River?

 

[Hatfield]

Speaking of ATVs, I posted a question a few threads ago about the use of ATVs in a search but did not get an answer.

I realize they can cover a large area in a short amount of time, but since they are so noisy, how would anyone hear someone crying for help? If DeOrr had fallen or stuck somewhere and was not in plain view but was crying, who would hear him? Just something I've wondered about for a while.

I remember that discussion here on the threads. I think one of our own SAR posters mentioned he would recommend people get on their own 2 feet and look for the boy. Especially when he could have still been assumed to be alive and wandered off.

For the reasons you just mentioned.

In most deep woods you cannot even really drive an ATV because you end up running into blockages like fallen trees and stumps and rocks and holes. Its just too dense to use an ATV in most deep woods.

I have an ATV and it is great to zoom over to an area but I would then get off the thing and look on feet. Then if you want to search a new area, jump on ATV and zoom on over and get off the thing again to search.

Once it becomes a RECOVERY mode then its not as important to hear so ATVs could be used to search more ground but due to rocks, stumps, holes, they only work well in terrain where you can drive them. Most deep woods it is very difficult to drive them in. You would be better on horseback in the deep woods or just on feet.

 

[ClaireNC]

I'm trying to find out how long Timber Creek is. So it flows between Stone Reservoir and the Salmon River?

I'm working on a better map now. I'll add some additional details. Here is the link to where I originally posted the map. There is a bit more info there: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ground-10-July-2015-5&p=11969132#post11969132

 

[travelbug]

TxJan, thank you so much for letting me know that Nate said it was a 20 min. drive to the store. I just remembered wrong which is normal.

On another note, I think the friend looked so drugged up. When the parents said they didn't know who would want to hurt them by taking Deorr (my words), I think drug dealers get revenge in just this manner when drug deals go bad. Of course, I'm dreaming up things. This is not fact but it is what I thought of.

I don't know any of the people involved with this case. I am trying to keep an open mind about the few facts that we have to work with. I also think that IR seemed quite odd during his interview. We have also discussed many oddities concerning the parents during their interviews. The only member of the group that hasn't spoken publicly is GGP. There have been hundreds of postings on SM regarding personal habits and traits of all of the POI's. We can't go down that path until someone has been named a suspect. The point I'm getting at, in my round-about way, is that we don't know if there is evidence of problems related to mental health issues, drug use, alcohol use, domestic violence, child abuse, elder abuse, rehab, custody issues, etc. among those associated with Deorr and at the scene during his disappearance. I don't think it is fair to question the behavior, or castigate, any of the 4 members of the group unless and/or until they can all be discussed equally or someone is upgraded to "suspect". jmho

 

[TxJan1971]

TxJan, thank you so much for letting me know that Nate said it was a 20 min. drive to the store. I just remembered wrong which is normal.

On another note, I think the friend looked so drugged up. When the parents said they didn't know who would want to hurt them by taking Deorr (my words), I think drug dealers get revenge in just this manner when drug deals go bad. Of course, I'm dreaming up things. This is not fact but it is what I thought of.

I'm not sure you remembered the time wrong. There have been several different estimated driving timeframes tossed around. I guess it really all depends on who is doing the driving and what their normal driving pattern is (thrill seeker/reckless abandon/pedal to the metal, vs Mr. Cautious "I don't want to Mess up my Vehicle" driver, etc.)

I'm sure if I drove it it would probably take 40 minutes+ as I would be driving nice and slow, taking in the scenery, nowhere to go and all day to get there mindset, attempting to avoid bumps, ruts, dust/dirt bombs. If it were my DH on the other hand, it would probably only take us 10-15 minutes max. I would be white knuckled from gripping the door handle to brace myself and my foot would hurt from slamming on the imaginary brake on my side of the vehicle , and I would have a migraine and chest palpitations after my delightful thrill ride! :fear:

As far as revenge, I will admit that I, too, thought the same thing when I first heard JM say what she did. It was my brain's response to her making that statement but with no factual basis for thinking it. I just chalked it up to another possibility that may or may not apply and needs more facts.

For your viewing pleasure, here's the link to Nate driving to the campsite
Approx. 0:30
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/a-closer-look-the-campground-where-deorr-kunz-disappeared/

 

[neesaki]

Neesaki, I TOO am shocked at that creek! Most descriptions of the creek that I've read made it sound like child's play. I'm still trying to find out, if someone knows, how long the creek is and what water does it flow into. I think it's entirely possible that little Deorr stumbled into the creek, and with the flow as strong as it is, I don't imagine he would have been heard. And speaking of mountain lions, not only do they "use" vacated wolf dens, but they use what has been referred to as day beds. At least I think that's what they're called. IOW, as they roam throughout their territory in search of prey, they use these day areas to rest, and they might be located anywhere the prey might be found. Although I still believe it to be quite possible that a mountain lion grabbed little Deorr and quickly disappeared with him, I see where your scenario could also be quite possible.

Anyone know the additional information about Timber Creek? TIA, if you do.

From what little information I've found the creek flowing through Timber Creek campground is the Middle Fork branch of Little Timber Creek, which flows into Stone Reservoir then appears to continue on from there. I wonder if they searched that entire length of the creek.

Here's the link to the map:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/S...2!3m1!1s0x5357a486c142a47b:0xc57f42b10e187ba7

 

[ClaireNC]

I'm trying to find out how long Timber Creek is. So it flows between Stone Reservoir and the Salmon River?

Here is a new map. The Little Timber Creek flows into the Big Timber Creek about 6 miles from the campground. The Big Timber Creek meets up with the Lemhi River outside of Leadore, which is about 10 miles from the campground. The Lemhi River flows into the Salmon River near Salmon, Idaho. Total distance from campsite to the Salmon River is about 55 miles.



https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z2VLvG6QAl8U.krB_bT1ik8CI&usp=sharing

 

[ILOKAL]

I'm working on a better map now. I'll add some additional details. Here is the link to where I originally posted the map. There is a bit more info there: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ground-10-July-2015-5&p=11969132#post11969132

Would you say the area being referred to as "the creek" by the sheriff, media, parents, etc. is about three miles? Does "the creek" enter Lemhi River at that bend? Oh, and thanks so much for the maps.

 

[ILOKAL]

From what little information I've found the creek flowing through Timber Creek campground is the Middle Fork branch of Little Timber Creek, which flows into Stone Reservoir then appears to continue on from there. I wonder if they searched that entire length of the creek.

Here's the link to the map:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/S...2!3m1!1s0x5357a486c142a47b:0xc57f42b10e187ba7

Thanks so much neesaki. I'm trying to figure out how many "miles?" of what has been referred to as "the creek" (by sheriff, media, parents, etc) was searched. Do you have ANY idea?

ETA: lol, I just noticed you were wondering the same thing.

 

[neesaki]

Here is a new map. The Little Timber Creek flows into the Big Timber Creek about 6 miles from the campground. The Big Timber Creek meets up with the Lemhi River outside of Leadore, which is about 10 miles from the campground. The Lemhi River flows into the Salmon River near Salmon, Idaho. Total distance from campsite to the Salmon River is about 55 miles.

View attachment 80282

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z2VLvG6QAl8U.krB_bT1ik8CI&usp=sharing

Thanks for the map, but now I'm confused, I was thinking Timber Creek flowed south, but it flows north? IOW, it flows north into the Stone Reservoir through the campground, then continues on to the Lemhi then the Salmon River. Is that right? TIA

ETA: Yes, North it is, just looked it up and answered my own self, LOL.

 

[neesaki]

Thanks so much neesaki. I'm trying to figure out how many "miles?" of what has been referred to as "the creek" (by sheriff, media, parents, etc) was searched. Do you have ANY idea?

ETA: lol, I just noticed you were wondering the same thing.

It appears I was as to the direction of flow of Timber Creek, what's new, LOL. :crosseyed:

 

[Wendy101]

Well, after watching the Sheriff in the unedited interview... I strongly believe he KNOWS and is NOT saying what has happened.. I have that "feeling" about him.. I feel he is angry and disgusted..

Also, someone posted up thread about Sheriff using is own dogs.. Well yeah, I would FULLY expect that he have dogs there ASAP if my child was missing! Only Sheriff went a step further .. He wanted MORE dogs there... Just incase... It is very telling that BOTH groups of dogs found NOTHING. Very telling IMO.. I can see one set of dogs missing the scent, but TWO sets from two different handlers.. Nope.. IMO.. (modsnip)