Gilgo Beach 4 Only (GB4)

[twocuriouscats]

(Welcome to Websleuths!)
I disagree with Mr. Brendt that this is “trophy” collection. I think LISK is OCD to the nth degree. A perfectionist who can’t handle anything out of place or off-symmetry.

Here’s what I think: LISK knows the Oak Beach/Gilgo area and scouted this location for his first victim (Maureen) before finding and killing her in 2007. She is the first victim LISK placed on this strip of land. His preferred disposal method is the world’s largest dumping ground: the ocean. I believe LISK is an avid winter boater, with a boat in a slip or at-the-ready all winter long. He chose an alternate “land” disposal site out of necessity because he wanted to avoid the throngs during boating season – from Memorial Day (when people put their boats in the water) thru Labor Day (when they take them out). He is not a “seasonal” killer – he’s just cognizant about what the season means for his nocturnal activity and how he must mitigate the risk of being caught. I also believe his profession requires him to be most active and about during the May-Sep time of year and the kind of vehicle he drives would not raise suspicion if it was stopped along a desolate roadside at night.

If you use Google Earth (free download) and pin these locations you’ll find an interesting pattern and what has given me the impression of precise measurement. Consider this:

Bodies disposed of here:
40°37'29.22"N 73°22'31.43"W – Maureen, 2007-July
40°37'27.97"N 73°22'35.80"W – Melissa, 2009-July
40°37'30.28"N 73°22'28.28"W – Megan, 2010-June
40°37'26.93"N 73°22'38.90"W – Amber, 2010-Sept

Markers: Beginning of tree line 40°37'31.25"N 73°22'24.63"W and concrete patch (there in 2007 per GE historic image tool) 40°37'30.88"N 73°22'24.28"W

Distance from both markers:
First victim placed 0.11 m

LISK thinking: about 1/10 of a mile from concrete patch/start of tree line​

Second victim placed 0.18 m

LISK thinking: not quite twice the distance of victim 1, but far enough​

Third victim placed 0.06 m

LISK thinking: half the distance of victim 1​

Fourth victim placed 0.22 m

LISK thinking: about 1/20 of a mile from concrete patch/start of tree line and twice the distance of first victim​

For someone to remember, without notes, where he placed his victims – a memory device seems the way to go. If you are familiar with this area already all it takes is to remember the turnaround in the road across from the beach (40°37'32.53"N 73°22'18.02"W) and just beyond that there is a concrete patch and the tree line starts… this is where to push the trip odometer reset button. This measurement method satisfies LISK’s need for symmetry and uniformity in all that he does. The distances may not be in precise increments, but they are close enough and time is of the essence so there is risk in making them exact. The length of vehicle is also a variable. Like if LISK drove a super duty-type pickup truck, for example. Not hard to imagine something like this being extremely useful in tick-infested brush:
http://allamericanautomobiles.com/car/66207567.html

Neptune, I'm glad you mentioned the gps coordinates! Not personally knowledgeable about it, which is frustrating, but it might mean something to LISK...there might even be some kind of code he worked out relating to the coordinates. Hoping this conversation continues, I think you may be onto something!

 

[twocuriouscats]

Mr Brandt,
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. I'm new to this forum. I'm a retired MD, but I was not a silver spoon child. I've been interested in investigative techniques & profiling for as long as I can recall. I often wished I had chosen forensic pathology as a specialty, but I have studied some.
My question to you, & one I posted in another forum, is one I'm sure you've been asked about before. I noted that each time the Gilgo Four were discussed on A&E's Killing Season, it was stated (and by you) that the four ladies were "wrapped carefully in burlap". This caught my attention, because the reporter shown on A&E held up a burlap sack & said they were "stuffed in a burlap sack like this". Her statement was strikingly different from every other comment made. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems they were carefully wrapped in burlap. This brings to mind two things to me: 1) My father was a furniture upholsterer. He was a brilliant artist even with furniture. But, burlap comes in "Bolts". They're large and EVERY upholsterer & Furniture Company purchases their burlap by Bolts or in these huge Rolls. 2) Secondly, it reminds me of something a murderer that has deeply entwined or twisted scripture in to his thinking. "Sack Cloth", which was actually a type of burlap is a religious inference, so I also wanted to ask if there were any ashes either near the bodies or buried with the bodies? Or, were the ladies burned or clothing burned?

I totally concur with your assessment of separate killers. It seems that the killer in the Gilgo Four case was a very Organized Killer. He is meticulous. So are upholsterers. (disorganized killers are not meticulous & they rip bodies & dismember, as you've mentioned). The bodies being "wrapped carefully" in burlap cries of meticulous work that an upholsterer would use in their work. Even the bodies being wrapped in burlap gives the impression of either someone wishing to toy with police by giving a clue- "stuffing cushions", or some other arrogant reason. They certainly are trophies. Upholsterers are required to measure fabric precisely, just like this killer laid out each of the 4 bodies exactly 500 yards apart. This was a precise measurement.

I realize that there are other reasons a killer might use burlap, but it's not a common item used in killings. Therefore, I thought of a laborer, like an upholsterer or other laborer who would have easy access to burlap, and/or someone who has twisted scripture in to his belief system and wrapped them in "sack cloth & ashes"...or it could be both?

I realize I'm new to this, but I hope that at least my observations might help to jog someone's memory to find the killer. I'm most interested in profiling killers. I'd be pleased to help find victim identities, but I'm most interested in finding the perpetrators.

Thank you so much for providing this forum to share insights.
docrocker

Welcome docrocker! Interesting - the "sack cloth" comment. Food for thought - some would say LISK is on a "mission" KWIM? (know what I mean?)!
I thought I saw a pile of ashes in the Manorville woods when they were walking around with Timothy Bolger - not sure though. Hopefully they will respond to your post!

 

[eyesonly]

He picks his victims in a two part event.
It's not about a certain look for him. It's what he is reading in their profile's that is his first check mark.
Then he meets them and wants intimate details of their lives, so he will talk to them for some time. It is in this stage where he makes his decision on whether they will become his next victim or not.
Get their online profiles together and read them through his eyes. Once you see what he sees, you will be able to go over other profiles from that time and decipher other profiles of women he has contacted.

 

[No it's not]

(Welcome to Websleuths!)
I disagree with Mr. Brendt that this is “trophy” collection. I think LISK is OCD to the nth degree. A perfectionist who can’t handle anything out of place or off-symmetry.

Here’s what I think: LISK knows the Oak Beach/Gilgo area and scouted this location for his first victim (Maureen) before finding and killing her in 2007. She is the first victim LISK placed on this strip of land. His preferred disposal method is the world’s largest dumping ground: the ocean. I believe LISK is an avid winter boater, with a boat in a slip or at-the-ready all winter long. He chose an alternate “land” disposal site out of necessity because he wanted to avoid the throngs during boating season – from Memorial Day (when people put their boats in the water) thru Labor Day (when they take them out). He is not a “seasonal” killer – he’s just cognizant about what the season means for his nocturnal activity and how he must mitigate the risk of being caught. I also believe his profession requires him to be most active and about during the May-Sep time of year and the kind of vehicle he drives would not raise suspicion if it was stopped along a desolate roadside at night.

If you use Google Earth (free download) and pin these locations you’ll find an interesting pattern and what has given me the impression of precise measurement. Consider this:

Bodies disposed of here:
40°37'29.22"N 73°22'31.43"W – Maureen, 2007-July
40°37'27.97"N 73°22'35.80"W – Melissa, 2009-July
40°37'30.28"N 73°22'28.28"W – Megan, 2010-June
40°37'26.93"N 73°22'38.90"W – Amber, 2010-Sept

Markers: Beginning of tree line 40°37'31.25"N 73°22'24.63"W and concrete patch (there in 2007 per GE historic image tool) 40°37'30.88"N 73°22'24.28"W

Distance from both markers:
First victim placed 0.11 m

LISK thinking: about 1/10 of a mile from concrete patch/start of tree line​

Second victim placed 0.18 m

LISK thinking: not quite twice the distance of victim 1, but far enough​

Third victim placed 0.06 m

LISK thinking: half the distance of victim 1​

Fourth victim placed 0.22 m

LISK thinking: about 1/20 of a mile from concrete patch/start of tree line and twice the distance of first victim​

For someone to remember, without notes, where he placed his victims – a memory device seems the way to go. If you are familiar with this area already all it takes is to remember the turnaround in the road across from the beach (40°37'32.53"N 73°22'18.02"W) and just beyond that there is a concrete patch and the tree line starts… this is where to push the trip odometer reset button. This measurement method satisfies LISK’s need for symmetry and uniformity in all that he does. The distances may not be in precise increments, but they are close enough and time is of the essence so there is risk in making them exact. The length of vehicle is also a variable. Like if LISK drove a super duty-type pickup truck, for example. Not hard to imagine something like this being extremely useful in tick-infested brush:
http://allamericanautomobiles.com/car/66207567.html

Neptune, very interesting comment and something I've been looking at for a couple of days. I am too convinced, that LISK is not only familiar with Ocean Parkway, but has studied the area topographically (air) and possibly via boat (water) as well as vehicle (land). I also agree, that he may very well be OCD.

Yes, the first victim's location was carefully planned and not just dumped. So was the second to left of it and the third jumping to the right of the first victim, followed by the fourth one placed to the very left of the bodies. A back and forth placement similar to the general concept of some of the other body dumps in (and out of) the area. He was not just dumping, but trying to confuse too, just in case.

The half peninsula he dropped his victims as well as the 2 pieces of land adjacent West to it are interesting due to the visible ditch system, those parallel lines dividing the three pieces of land into smaller "strips". You did pick up on it..

Those ditch lines were there from at least the '90s on and are present/ visible all year long. It is my belief, that LISK may have intentionally placed "his" bodies each on a "strip of land". Could it be any more OCD like..?
It is also of my belief, that he possibly planned to find more victims and place their bodies on this one particular half peninsula. I would not put it behind him, that there may be more victims or partial remains dumped on the other 2 "half peninsulas" west of this one. Perhaps they are not just dumped, but buried. Who knows but him..

Here is what I mean; naturally the G4 were not there prior to 2007, I just left the markings on. The 2010 image was prior to the discovery:

1994

2001

2008

2010

-Nin

 

[No it's not]

Again, the body placement is:

1. Barnes
2. Barthelemy
3. Waterman
4. Costello

-Nin

 

[No it's not]

This is Hemlock Cove, the water basin right next to the G4 dump piece of land:

Look what happens to Hemlock Cove during summer..it becomes "Hemstock"..Hunting grounds??

[video=youtube;FTdSFsEiuWk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTdSFsEiuWk&app=desktop[/video]

 

[FindHG]

Neptune, very interesting comment and something I've been looking at for a couple of days. I am too convinced, that LISK is not only familiar with Ocean Parkway, but has studied the area topographically (air) and possibly via boat (water) as well as vehicle (land). I also agree, that he may very well be OCD.

Yes, the first victim's location was carefully planned and not just dumped. So was the second to left of it and the third jumping to the right of the first victim, followed by the fourth one placed to the very left of the bodies. A back and forth placement similar to the general concept of some of the other body dumps in (and out of) the area. He was not just dumping, but trying to confuse too, just in case.

The half peninsula he dropped his victims as well as the 2 pieces of land adjacent West to it are interesting due to the visible ditch system, those parallel lines dividing the three pieces of land into smaller "strips". You did pick up on it..

Those ditch lines were there from at least the '90s on and are present/ visible all year long. It is my belief, that LISK may have intentionally placed "his" bodies each on a "strip of land". Could it be any more OCD like..?
It is also of my belief, that he possibly planned to find more victims and place their bodies on this one particular half peninsula. I would not put it behind him, that there may be more victims or partial remains dumped on the other 2 "half peninsulas" west of this one. Perhaps they are not just dumped, but buried. Who knows but him..

Here is what I mean; naturally the G4 were not there prior to 2007, I just left the markings on. The 2010 image was prior to the discovery:

1994

2001

2008

2010

-Nin

WOW!!! Amazing work, thank you so much, No it's Not, and all the Websleuthers who contributed their time and skills to this!

The way it lines up with the streets, just chilling. Controlling the scenario to fit his notion of himself seems so striking an impression, like controlling or owning the past through the present or something, and then again that sense of presentation, 'look what I did "mommy"' somehow?

 

[PennyPie7]

Hi, PennyPie7. We have a thread dedicated to burlap. It would be a good idea if members would post comments and knowledge about burlap in that thread for easier reference.

Thanks,

Bessie
WS Administrator

Burlap and Forensics

Apologies, Bessie! I just saw it come up 10 times in a row in various different threads and wanted to address it. Your way is better!

 

[ps149]

There is a Rumor Mill here Joe for unsubstantiated rumors. This is a FACTUAL thread. Only the confirmed FACTS matter in the real world. Rumors belong in the fiction section.

 

[FindHG]

There is a Rumor Mill here Joe for unsubstantiated rumors. This is a FACTUAL thread. Only the confirmed FACTS matter in the real world. Rumors belong in the fiction section.

You've lost me. I'm simple and very slow, and not on SM, can you please explain what you mean if anything?

 

[Det.Stabler]

Some key things I think about this case when it comes to the GB4. The killer knows the area very well maybe from childhood or he grew up there but I feel he no longer resides there. I think he may live in NYC. several traces of last known calls of some of the victims originated from time square. He wants to keep his monster world separate from his world that he lets society see. For this he would want to possibly hunt in the city but leave the bodies where he knows it will be highly unlikely they will be discovered soon. The burlap sacks strike me because Long Island has or use to have allot of potatoes farms in that area. I know from having worked in grocery stores when I was a kid, potatoes sometimes came in burlap sacks. I do have an opinion that he knows some law tactics based on another body that was found but not part of the GB4. I will respect the originators wishes and not talk about that. If you would like to know that theory please send me a message.

 

[Dearwatson]

I am an amateur sleuth. I have investigated these cases in detail. I have came up with a name. There are about 6 people with this name in the New York City and Long Island areas.

I have focused on a man with a history to Belli Topsoli in Brentwood and King's Park Psychiatric Center in Brentwood which shut down in 1996.

He is in his fifties and has apparently lived on Long Island for many years if not his entire life. I turned this information into authorities several years ago. I feel as if he was never investigated, lost in the shuffle of the mountain of tips received. I am at a loss at what to do.

 

[FindHG]

Some key things I think about this case when it comes to the GB4. The killer knows the area very well maybe from childhood or he grew up there but I feel he no longer resides there. I think he may live in NYC. several traces of last known calls of some of the victims originated from time square. He wants to keep his monster world separate from his world that he lets society see. For this he would want to possibly hunt in the city but leave the bodies where he knows it will be highly unlikely they will be discovered soon. The burlap sacks strike me because Long Island has or use to have allot of potatoes farms in that area. I know from having worked in grocery stores when I was a kid, potatoes sometimes came in burlap sacks. I do have an opinion that he knows some law tactics based on another body that was found but not part of the GB4. I will respect the originators wishes and not talk about that. If you would like to know that theory please send me a message. enrolment

If he was at the Port Authority, then fessing up to seeing his victims in Queens brothels to their families, if true, possibly hunting at Queens Plaza, leaving evidence all over LI, could he be someplace in NYC's bedroom burbs, older, alone, less well endowed as it were, more pathetic, sedentary, better hidden, but still with the same, say loyal troglodytes possibly around him, may be grooming, same equipment, get up, patterns of comings and goings, same rest and recreation in similar places? Like a very controlled family unit, but not by blood, exactly.

So, if one of them is figured out, and they happen to settle in various place around each other over time, from place to place, with similar crimes happening, in perfectly connected data and analysis...
just musing and speculation going off great shared thoughts, thank you Det. Stabler.

And to all who've joined, and especially those sharing their thoughts, information, expertise, and ideas, sleuthing for answers and justice, thanks!

:welcome2: ~~~~~~~~~~ :welcome: ~~~~~~~~~~~ :welcome5:​

 

[bessie]

Apologies, Bessie! I just saw it come up 10 times in a row in various different threads and wanted to address it. Your way is better!

No worries, PennyPie7. It all worked out. I had linked the burlap thread earlier, but should have bumped it up instead

 

[bessie]

The Rumor Mill is closed. I locked it a few weeks ago, and it will remain locked. Members were abusing its purpose.

 

[twocuriouscats]

This is Hemlock Cove, the water basin right next to the G4 dump piece of land:

Look what happens to Hemlock Cove during summer..it becomes "Hemstock"..Hunting grounds??

[video=youtube;FTdSFsEiuWk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTdSFsEiuWk&app=desktop[/video]

HOLY COW! If you knew where they were you could literally throw a rock and hit the spot, plus I'm sure he used the gps coordinates. Tx for sharing these!

 

[twocuriouscats]

There is a Rumor Mill here Joe for unsubstantiated rumors. This is a FACTUAL thread. Only the confirmed FACTS matter in the real world. Rumors belong in the fiction section.

That seems mean-spirited -and please post your reply with Joe's quote so we know what/who you are talking about. TIA

 

[coffeeandacig]

Again, the body placement is:

1. Barnes
2. Barthelemy
3. Waterman
4. Costello

-Nin

Thank you for the key No its not.

Forgive me if this has already been covered. I'm new to the LISK case, and have only spent a little time on UID cases. Has the GB4 been looked at as his "signature" piece? Akin to signing a painting at the bottom of a canvas? He could be leaving his initials, which to me, would spell out M.A.B.

Also, if this suggestion has been made before, and summarily dispersed, please ignore. But, regarding the trap that he sets for his victims, is it at all possible that this person on several occasions used these women for nude models? The victims remain objects to him, leaves no DNA, and gives the victims a sense of security because he is after all, an artist just needing a model?

 

[docrocker]

No. I'm brand new here. I also have more to post. Thank you for replying.
The killer is a prominent businessman in the surrounding area who is well thought of & is likely a church-going citizen. He's precise, methodical, & is Organized in his killing. He has money to travel, most likely. However, these killings were likely done to show everyone in the area how intelligent he is (he's a narcissist, just like most serial killers are). He's especially sending that message to police, taunting them.
Thanks.
docrocker

 

[FindHG]

At about 32 minutes in, when Mr. Todd Mathews, the NAMUS spokesman, mentions the surgical scars on the legs, could those have been caused by athletic stress, could she have been on a local or any team sports in high school, depending on where the scars and what kind of scars, maybe a softball/baseball catcher who often enough require knee surgery?

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websle...-josh-zeman-and-rachel-mills-episodes-1-and-2