IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #5

[margarita25]

To me it appears his hand is in the pocket of his jeans, and the top of his jeans appear brown. That's just what I see though. YMMV.

That's insane! (Jk :biggrin: )

 

[LaborDayRN]

That's insane! (Jk :biggrin: )

:silly:

 

[sfg165]

The girls were to be picked up at 3:30pm. They were reported missing 2 hours later. I am going to go out on a limb and say that Delphi, the town of 3,000 people, doesn't have an enormous team of first responders much less search and rescue teams, dogs and divers at the ready. It would take hours to get that manpower organized and was a plan evolving as the hours passed. Searching at night is tricky and dangerous for the searchers, especially volunteer locals. You can bet that every officer, even those who had just worked a full shift, were there - searching until they couldn't see and beyond to midnight. They were back on site at dawn. What do you want from people? Super human powers? By daylight, the situation had changed and they had teams ready and on site. Besides, no one would have seen those foot prints in the dark and may have trampled all over them and called that area 'searched'. There was no evidence that a crime had occurred until the first search was rendered fruitless, the girls didn't answer the calls of searchers, no one saw any trace of them, not even the nearby homeowners and LG didn't answer her phone. I won't fault the search efforts. Period.

I will not fault the efforts of the searchers on the ground, but I will fault decisions made those in charge at the time:

Why would the sheriff not call in the State Police before darkness fell. (or at least shortly after darkness fell) I am not familiar with how these small-town and small-county police procedures work in Indiana, but I would think that the State Police would have more resources, such as a helicopter with thermal imaging capabilities to help locate persons in the woods.


Also...statement from the sheriff posted on the IndyChannel timeline is disturbing: "February 14, 12 a.m.: The search for the two missing girls was scaled back around midnight because of the dark. At this point in time, Sheriff Laezenby said they had no reason to believe that the girls were in imminent danger and crews would resume their search in the morning." http://www.theindychannel.com/news/timeline-13-year-old-girls-go-missing-bodies-found


Gee Whiz! two young girls missing in the cold dark woods for about 8 or 9 hours by that time (12 midnight) and he states that he had "no reason to believe that the girls were in imminent danger." What about hypothermia? Animal attack? Injury from a fall? There would be a whole range of things that could have happened to the 2 girls by that point at midnight. At that point, regardless of whether or not a crime had been committed, these two girls were is danger. And every hour and minute counted.


The girls not answering their phones would be all the more reason to keep up the search. In my opinion, he should have know at that point that he was not dealing with two runaways and something serious had happened to them and he should have called in any and all resources outside of his small department or county sheriff's office that was available to him. This assumes that the info posted by the IndyChannel is correct.

 

[margarita25]

Good eyes.

Is that a cigar in his mouth?

I was thinking last night it looked like smoke vapor possibly.

Who knows right?

 

[rotary_dial]

I strongly respectfully disagree. People who know guns can tell the difference between a .22 or .45, etc. In fact my post said that looks like a 9 or 45 right off the bat due to the shape and size. Am I right for sure? Of course I can't say that for sure. Ive been to various gun shows. I lived in Texas. I've shot various caliber guns in the woods....respectfully, I'm not sure why someone being able to possibly identify a type of gun is so inconceivable.

Re: the tattoo? A poor comparison. A tattoo does not have a 3d shape which leaves an imprint through the jacket.

There is no possible way someone could identify the caliber of those guns in the above picture, from a clothing outline using a picture like the one of the suspect.

How could they possibly tell you which outline is the 9mm, 10mm, .38, or .45?

edit: all of the above handguns are different caliber.


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[margarita25]

I'm going with ammo pouch. That's what the brown thing is IMO JMO MOO :moo:

 

[mpnola]

Why would the local LE (sheriff, town police) call in the State Police before darkness fell. (or at least shortly after darkness fell) I am not familiar with how these small-town and small-county police procedures work in Indiana, but I would think that the State Police would have more resources, such as a helicopter with thermal imaging capabilities to help locate persons in the woods. Also...statement from Sheriff posted on the IndyChannel timeline is disturbing: "February 14, 12 a.m.: The search for the two missing girls was scaled back around midnight because of the dark. At this point in time, Sheriff Laezenby said they had no reason to believe that the girls were in imminent danger and crews would resume their search in the morning." http://www.theindychannel.com/news/timeline-13-year-old-girls-go-missing-bodies-found Gee Whiz! two young girls missing in the cold dark woods for about 8 or 9 hours by that time (12 midnight) and he states that he had "no reason to believe that the girls were in imminent danger." What about hypothermia? Animal attack? Injury from a fall? There would be a whole range of things that could have happened to the 2 girls by that point at midnight. At that point, regardless of whether or not a crime had been committed, these two girls were is danger. And every hour and minute counted. The girls not answering their phones would be all the more reason to keep up the search. In my opinion, he should have know at that point that he was not dealing with two runaways and something serious had happened to them and he should have called in any and all resources outside of his small department or county sheriff's office that was available to him. This assumes that the info posted by the IndyChannel is correct.

Exactly!!! Thank you! I agree so much! And I am sure they are all devastated over this event, but even in a small town, you must be trained and prepared to act. I mean, if there's not much else going on, it seems a whole lot of resources could be called on. Especially with missing kids in the woods.

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[Elainera]

The funny thing is, when I look at the photo, everything you guys have said so far seems plausible to me. Fanny pack, shirt hanging out, brown-on-top jeans, gun, no gun, funny knees, hoodie, sweater, coat without arms, plastic bag, frog legs, mustache, beard, no beard, cap, thick hair, brown hair, grey hair, young guy, old guy ... I can see it all! (Yes I can :yes: )

To me he's most likely around 28-30 y/o, the brown color is a shirt or T Shirt hanging out below his jacket, the white loopy thing is a scarf or the collar of a shirt or something like that, he wears a cap and has no beard. I don't think he has a gun but maybe a knife. I don't find his jacket particularly bulky. But I'm entirely unsure about all of that.

:dunno:

 

[LaborDayRN]

The funny thing is, when I look at the photo, everything you guys have said so far seems plausible to me. Fanny pack, shirt hanging out, brown-on-top jeans, gun, no gun, funny knees, hoodie, sweater, coat without arms, plastic bag, frog legs, mustache, beard, no beard, cap, thick hair, brown hair, grey hair, young guy, old guy ... I can see it all! (Yes I can :yes: )

To me he's most likely around 28-30 y/o, the brown color is a shirt or T Shirt hanging out below his jacket, the white loopy thing is a scarf or the collar of a shirt or something like that, he wears a cap and has no beard. I don't think he has a gun but maybe a knife. I don't find his jacket particularly bulky. But I'm entirely unsure about all of that.

:dunno:

BBM: I know exactly how you feel!

 

[myfewsense]

IMO this scenario fits the timeline aspects.The girls, who loved the outdoors and day off school, were dropped off at favorite community spot to go hiking. A family member dropped them off around 1 pm and planned to pick them up around 4pm. At least one of the girls had a phone for emergencies. The girls were having fun on bridge and at 2:07 pm snapped the photo. They decided to hike down to the area where their bodies were discovered, or they were forced down there by a loner who knows the terrain.

 

[jvb74]

According to government recommendations, I don't believe an Amber Alert can be activated unless there is evidence of abduction. The guidelines linked below explain what LE has to consider before creating an Amber Alert, otherwise the whole purpose is weakened.

This case didn't really meet the criteria.

https://www.amberalert.gov/guidelines.htm

I think they also have to have a description of a car? Just plucked that from my memory. I know there was another case where no Amber Alert was issued, public outcry, police said one of the criteria was description of a car. Does that sound right?

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[wsto]

There is no possible way someone could identify the caliber of those guns in the above picture, from a clothing outline using a picture like the one of the suspect.

How could they possibly tell you which outline is the 9mm, 10mm, .38, or .45?

edit: all of the above handguns are different caliber.


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Kimber "type 1911" pistols. Next time put them in a windbreaker and I might break a sweat 😜

 

[FruitTingles]

I haven't been able to keep up today . Have I missed anything new?

 

[deugirtni]

I will not fault the efforts of the searchers on the ground, but I will fault decisions made those in charge at the time:

Why would the sheriff not call in the State Police before darkness fell. (or at least shortly after darkness fell) I am not familiar with how these small-town and small-county police procedures work in Indiana, but I would think that the State Police would have more resources, such as a helicopter with thermal imaging capabilities to help locate persons in the woods.


Also...statement from the sheriff posted on the IndyChannel timeline is disturbing: "February 14, 12 a.m.: The search for the two missing girls was scaled back around midnight because of the dark. At this point in time, Sheriff Laezenby said they had no reason to believe that the girls were in imminent danger and crews would resume their search in the morning." http://www.theindychannel.com/news/timeline-13-year-old-girls-go-missing-bodies-found


Gee Whiz! two young girls missing in the cold dark woods for about 8 or 9 hours by that time (12 midnight) and he states that he had "no reason to believe that the girls were in imminent danger." What about hypothermia? Animal attack? Injury from a fall? There would be a whole range of things that could have happened to the 2 girls by that point at midnight. At that point, regardless of whether or not a crime had been committed, these two girls were is danger. And every hour and minute counted.


The girls not answering their phones would be all the more reason to keep up the search. In my opinion, he should have know at that point that he was not dealing with two runaways and something serious had happened to them and he should have called in any and all resources outside of his small department or county sheriff's office that was available to him. This assumes that the info posted by the IndyChannel is correct.

I wonder if one or both of the girls' families may have not seemed too worried, and if not, could that have played a part in the official police search being called off at midnight? I recall Libby's grandfather saying he thought perhaps they had been making their way to Libby's mother? For him to have that thought, it made me wonder if Libby at least, had done something like this before? He said he didn't think she had been upset with her dad, had no indication of that, but yet it seems to be the first thing he thought of. (How the girls might travel to Libby's mom's, I have no idea, and wouldn't that be worrisome in itself?) Have we heard anything about prior instances of 'leaving home', or not coming home as expected after being at a friend's house, or anything like that?

On that first evening, weren't search parties already arranged and searching for the girls? If so, after coordinating all of that, which must have taken some time after the 5:30pm missing call came in, it does seem weird that they would pack up for the night at midnight. From what I recall, it sounds like the family and others did end up searching all through the night, but sounds like the official police search was called off until morning. In hindsight, it is probably good that there weren't large groups searching, due to potentially contaminating evidence. For the police, I think their own safety and that of the search group they are coordinating, might be a priority if it seems it would be fruitless to search in the dark? If they can't see much, then they would have to revisit the same areas again during daylight, which would be a duplication of efforts and perhaps wasteful of resources?

I haven't heard about any K9s being part of the search, wouldn't that have been key in a case like this when the girls' exact location at 2pm had been known, so they had a starting point, and also that they were presumably travelling on foot?

It would sure be interesting to know what the ME's estimated TOD was. It would be terrible to find out the girls had died within a few hours of being found, which could mean they may have still been alive after midnight when the searches were called off. Ugh.

 

[myfewsense]

Exactly!!! Thank you! I agree so much! And I am sure they are all devastated over this event, but even in a small town, you must be trained and prepared to act. I mean, if there's not much else going on, it seems a whole lot of resources could be called on. Especially with missing kids in the woods.

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I was thinking like you, but changed my mind. Learned some family and friends continued searching overnight. Grandfather said in an interview he thought granddaughter ran away overnight to her 18 year old brother's house. I got the impression, one of the girls may have had a "teen moment" awhile back and left for a few hours, so it's wasn't completely out of the norm. I think the family, like any of us, was not thinking the worst, but thinking its about teen-agers breaking curfew. Family members probably encouraged the officers to get some rest until the am.

 

[myfewsense]

They would call them in if they were certain of was a crime. At the time, people didn't know if they were just runaways. I don't know any town, large or small, that brings in the amount resources you suggest on one day, unless they know with certainty the teen is in imminent danger.

 

[DeDee]

IMO there is nothing wrong with his gait. He's probably in his 50's and he's lumbering along like we men in our fifties tend to do. We are not youngsters anymore you know.

About his hands in his pockets. For some reason, I simply feel that this guy likes to put his hands in his pockets, when he's walking, standing, or whatever. He's one of those guys who always has his hands in his jacket pockets. Some people like to stand and walk like that.

IMO it is not possible that he was drunk. He's way too good for that. I do not like all these drifter theories because too me this guy is quite skilled at these nasty things he does. He's very good at it.

For some reason, they are looking for anyone who might have seen someone throw down a backpack beside a highway. There is also mention of a duffel bag. I have not the slightest idea what that all could be about. I doubt if he hitchhiked away though. That's too stupid. He's way too good for that.

Read many of your posts. Your speculations are similar to what I feel may have happened to these precious young girls. Noooo. This killer was not drunk or high up on that scary and rickety trestle. He knew how to handle the situation. This was his outdoor playground.

Re: the backpack, do you have a link handy? There was a legal search for a backpack. I'd just like to read a MSM about it. We are going to need a media thread. Someone. Anyone?

How can we determine his gait from 2 images? Perhaps he is being careful where he steps on those old rr ties so that he doesn't slip and fall 7 stories below.

there is nothing wrong with his gait. He's probably in his 50's and he's lumbering along like we men in our fifties tend to do. We are not youngsters anymore you know.

 

[deugirtni]

I think they also have to have a description of a car? Just plucked that from my memory. I know there was another case where no Amber Alert was issued, public outcry, police said one of the criteria was description of a car. Does that sound right?

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I thought so too, but it doesn't look like it, according to the below. So in this case, there was no reason to believe at the time that the girls had been abducted, and police said they did not believe the girls to be in imminent danger.:

The report must meet the following criteria set by the U.S. Department of Justice:

• There is reasonable belief by law enforcement that an abduction has occurred
• The law enforcement agency believes that the child is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death
• There is enough descriptive information about the victim and the abduction for law enforcement to issue an AMBER Alert to assist in the recovery of the child
• The victim of the abduction is a child aged 17 years of younger
• The child's name and other critical elements, including Child Abduction flag, have been entered into the National Crime Information Center system

http://www.theindychannel.com/homep...an-only-be-issued-if-certain-criteria-are-met

 

[deugirtni]

The owner on whose property the girls were found (below). It seems the clothing style might be somewhat common in this area?:

[video=youtube;s91Q1WRuN3E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s91Q1WRuN3E[/video]

 

[sfg165]

In order for LE in Indiana to name the person in the photo as a suspect, do you assume there is evidence that ties this person to the crime?

Or is it that LE has a photo of a man in the vicinity of where the crime occurred and hence he is the suspect as opposed to a person of interest?

I guess the obvious answer would be that there is a photo of a person in the area at the time and we have evidence that ties this person to the crime. I'm just wondering if this has been stated by LE.