IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #22

[otto]

The girls were familar with the bridge.

The walk across is about 8 minutes according to one video I have watched of someone crossing while filming. (IIRC)

If it takes 8 minutes to cross the bridge, why did it take the girls from 1:15PM to 2:07 to be crossing the bridge one way? What were they doing the rest of the time on the 15 minutes walk to the bridge?

Were they partially across the bridge on the return trip when they encountered him and began retreating on the bridge?

 

[Elainera]

The girls were there at 1PM. They walked to the bridge and started crossing at 1:20PM. At 2:07 they were on the bridge, and by the time they got to the end of the bridge they were in trouble. Let's suppose that by 2:25 they were told to go "down the hill". The then crossed a creek and walked 3/4 of a mile. Let's put the time at 2:45? They were then (presumably) assaulted and murdered. Let's put that at 3:30 or 4PM. Now he has to get out of there as fast as possible.

What happens next in the life of a child predator? Is his car down the access road?

How long was he missing from his usual life? Did he come home happy and relaxed with the usual weight of life temporarily off his shoulders? Was he home in time for dinner? What time did he leave in the morning to be at the bridge when the girls arrived? Was he home for lunch ... not likely if he had to park his car some distance from the bridge and hike far enough to meet the girls on the bridge around 2PM.

You might want to add to your musings that LE posted "last seen around 2.30pm" next to the photo of BG on the billboards. If that is the time when Libby took the video of him on the bridge or later when he "participated" in the crime, idk. .

As for how long it takes to cross the bridge, iirc someone on here either estimated the length of the bridge and time to cross, or actually walked it, and it wasn't more than 10 minutes. The bridge is not that long. I think the girls were just playing around for some time while up there, taking pictures/video etc.

 

[her]

"Compartmentalizing" : this is not a theory, it is actually what some people with seriously damaged personalities do. They will, in some cases, very successfully hide the Mr. Hyde part of their thinking from their family or wife/girlfriend (if they have any). They may mention it in jest or in passing, but the dedicated family member has too much riding on being part of a valid family unit or in the socially correct relationship to sit up and say "What do you really mean by that?". That family member will usually just skip on over to the next bit of conversation and laugh off the strange comments.
It's the same reason that former wives/girlfriends/mothers of SK's will resist the truth to the last - they cannot admit that they looked right past the Devil Himself and misjudged or mischaracterized someone so completely. In some cases it can mean that the family member in denial would have to admit that they had blown most or all of their judgements for most of their own lives. They have a need to validate themselves that outweighs the need to help others. Add in the guilt that a mother would feel on having raised "a monster" and you will see zero cooperation and recognition on their part, regarding the dollar rewards for information about the crime and the identification of the POI.
Both participants in this cycle do not think like we do, we who are on the outside looking in. That's why the "crazy" violence and denial baffles us.

That is all of course in your opinion, I wouldn't put the blame on family members of criminals that they refused to see said criminal for what they are because of some construct you imagined. There are too many different sets of people to generalize what they need or feel in the family members lives. I take issue with this because it does place the blame on women more or less that they are needy and over look the a typical male offender.

 

[WebSight]

The family clearly had the opportunity to assign the day of death. One family chose the day of abduction, the other chose the day that their child was found. I don't think there's anything more to it.

I would like to know what the coroners report says regarding the dates. That will be the official time of death.

The girls were found very quickly, the coroner would be able to pinpoint the time of death pretty accurately.

I think that choice option becomes more viable when a victim is found at much later date and the time of death cannot be ascertained, so the family can choose between date missing and date found.

And to me the dates do matter. It would answer a lot of questions, and would open up even more.

Also, IMO, if I were the family members of two girls who were very best friends who died together, I would want the date of death to be the same if I were given the choice. It would be a poignant tribute. So I would find them choosing different days odd unless they know it to be true. But that is just me.

I think there is a reason the dates are different and that might be because the coroner's report said they were, and the families went with it. But we just do not know, so my sense is we should assume that the dates are different.

I wish LE would speak to that issue because it does matter.

 

[WebSight]

But can they check every single one even 90 miles away? I realize they most definitely check the local sex offenders, perhaps everyone in the county. But within a 90-100 mile radius? That is a lot.

I would think that they would contact neighboring county officials outside their immediate range and ask them to do it.

 

[eds27]

Perhaps, one of the girls passed away later than the other. It may be that simple.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

Did the girls reasonably have time to cross the bridge in the 2.5 hours that they had a the park?
Did the suspect park his car at the other bridge (Wilson?)?

What have the people at that park said about vehicles they saw between noon and 7PM Feb 13?

I wouldn't call it a park. It's not heavily populated.

 

[deugirtni]

I'm thinking about the video and audio recordings LE has, and the statements they made. They said

- they are not sure if the recorded voice belongs to the suspect caught on video on the bridge (BG)
- they said about BG that he "at least participated" in the murders

So

- they have seen BG on video but never seen him speak (otherwise they'd know it is his voice on the audio)
- they have seen him do things that show he was "at least" taking part in the crime, but he did not say anything on camera while doing whatever he did
- the crime did not happen on the bridge, so they must have video of him after they left the bridge and arrived at the location where the crime occurred that shows that he is taking part in the murders
- I think it is therefore fair to assume that Libby's phone was not in her pocket or otherwise hidden or lost etc (only recording audio but no picture) after they left the bridge and when the crime occurred, as the video showed BG participating in the crime. Her phone must have been close by and in the open while the crime occurred, at least for some of it.

LE said they were concluding BG's participation in the murders based on the 'totality' of the evidence at hand.

I personally believe the video was shot by Libby ahead of actually meeting face to face with their killer.. it was taken from a distance, which is why, I believe, the quality is so poor.

The background noise we hear (prior to the FBI removing it on the audio recording found on their site) sounds exactly like a recording made while in a pocket while walking. I say this based on experience, because someone pocket-dialed me by accident, unbeknownst to himself, while he was walking one time.. the call went to my voicemail.. when I listened to it, I had no idea what that sound was.. later found out it was just the sound of 'walking' while phone was in pocket.

LE would have timestamps on the video/audio recordings which would enable them to surmise that the timing made sense for the person pictured in the video to have been present at the time of the audio saying, 'down the hill'.. and based on other evidence they have, such as the person who said they were in the area around 3pm and the girls were not seen, the autopsy estimate of time of death, etc. Because the person pictured in the video was not recorded while actually speaking, police are not able to say for sure whether that voice belongs to that BG, but they CAN say that everything adds up to him at least being present at the very time when the audio was being recorded, and therefore they are confident to report that this BG 'at least participated'? They are being very careful with their words, knowing that everything that happens now can potentially be used against them when the case eventually goes to trial.

I am still confused about the phone. Was it in a bag (Libby was not pictured that day and so we don't know whether she had a bag with her, and if so, was the phone in the bag, and it was later found discarded and that is why LE is asking if anyone perhaps saw a person discarding a bag?)? Did Libby discreetly toss the phone before the girls were murdered, without the perp ever knowing of its existence, and it was subsequently found by police? Is it like some have surmised, that the recordings went straight to Libby's cloud, and the phone itself has never actually been retrieved? Was the perp secure in believing there was nothing incriminating to himself to be found on that phone and so he knowingly felt there was no risk in leaving it behind?

All just moo.

 

[WebSight]

I would like to know who decided it would be a fun idea to go to a scary bridge on a cold 20-40F day just before Valentine's Day.
It seems as unusual as Lyric and Elizabeth deciding to go to the wrong end of the park by themselves along a creepy path and sit at the water drainage pipe of a leech infested manmade lake.

The girls hiked there often according to the first news report.

 

[cubbeegirl]

I have no idea how I did all that last post...and I have no idea how to fix it LOL

 

[WebSight]

If it takes 8 minutes to cross the bridge, why did it take the girls from 1:15PM to 2:07 to be crossing the bridge one way? What were they doing the rest of the time on the 15 minutes walk to the bridge?

Were they partially across the bridge on the return trip when they encountered him and began retreating on the bridge?

They were probably dilly-dallying most likely or hiking around the northside entrance area before they got on the bridge, which we know they were crossing at 2:07pm. So they had had an hour to mess about before even entering

They probably crossed the bridge in 10-15 minutes, speculation of course, as I am going on the info that it takes about eight minutes to cross just walking, without stopping, taking photos, etc..

There is some evidence to suggest that they or at least one of them, had crossed and were off the bridge, on the other side when the pic of BG was taken at @ 2:30pm.

HTH?

 

[Bird of Paradise]

I have no idea how I did all that last post...and I have no idea how to fix it LOL

You may still be able to delete it.

 

[Spellbound]

This case is going cold. :tantrum:

Once the leads start to shrink, he said, then it's harder to justify the vast resources given to the police.

While Perrine said the investigation "takes a lot of time and a lot of resources," he vowed to continue until the case is solved.

"We're not giving up," he said. "We're going to continue doing this. We just need one break. One break in this case is all it's going to take to put somebody in jail. That's our goal — to bring justice."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/investigat...ious-murder-enters-4th-week/story?id=45937133

The case is far from being cold. If you stick around WS long enough, you learn that many, many cases takes months to years before being solved. They only go cold when there are not enough resources to keep a lot of personnel involved and there are no more tips coming in.

Reading liltexans' post above, the link takes you to an article describing how much effort is being put into this case by LE at this time. Far from cold, IMO.

It is hard for us, as the public, to be patient and have faith that the culprit wil be apprehended soon (as in yesterday). Crime usually takes time, devotion and patience to solve.

Our answers will come. I have to believe that.

 

[Elainera]

I have no idea how I did all that last post...and I have no idea how to fix it LOL

Still time to edit it I think?

 

[joleaco]

Dear Everyone,

Please remember you CANNOT bring up random blogs on Websleuths.

Please do not try and get around this rule by posting clues about the blog.

You need to know how all these rumors, all these people posting things on other sites, are affecting the case.

I don't need to talk to Law Enforcement to know the Internet is driving them NUTS. Please, do not be a part of the problem by promoting these random blogs on Websleuths.

We do not need to be a part of that ugly, wasteful, rumor mill on the Internet.


Please remember if you want to post a Registered Sex Offender you must send a private message to one of the mods and get permission.

Thank you.

Just leaving this here in case anyone missed it.

 

[BlackHeartArtemis]

First time poster regarding this case.

Surely somebody out there recognises this man. I don't imagine he has too many jackets, like the average person. Surely the set up of the navy jacket and brown hoodie underneath has been used before. He MUST be on CCTV somewhere, he MUST have said spoken to someone that morning or come into contact with someone somewhere.

Someone knows straight off the bat who this guy is.

This is my thought exactly.

Perhaps we can use our sheer numbers to find a camera on the routes to or from the park which he may have used, and spot him.

 

[deugirtni]

I would like to know what the coroners report says regarding the dates. That will be the official time of death.

The girls were found very quickly, the coroner would be able to pinpoint the time of death pretty accurately.

I think that choice option becomes more viable when a victim is found at much later date and the time of death cannot be ascertained, so the family can choose between date missing and date found.

And to me the dates do matter. It would answer a lot of questions, and would open up even more.

Also, IMO, if I were the family members of two girls who were very best friends who died together, I would want the date of death to be the same if I were given the choice. It would be a poignant tribute. So I would find them choosing different days odd unless they know it to be true. But that is just me.

I think there is a reason the dates are different and that might be because the coroner's report said they were, and the families went with it. But we just do not know, so my sense is we should assume that the dates are different.

I wish LE would speak to that issue because it does matter.

Perhaps the families will speak to this when they do their press conference on Thursday. The families work in conjunction with the funeral home staff to create the obituary. It is not a legal document.

This is from a UK site, I could not find similar information for USA:

"Legal time of death: The time at which the body was discovered or physically pronounced dead by another individual. This is the time that is shown - by law - on a death certificate."
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/estimating-the-time-of-death.html

Here is a good article on difficulties in pinpointing time of death. http://www.writersdigest.com/qp7-migration-books/forensics-excerpt

 

[Spellbound]

See box near top of this page for link to: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websle...uths-radio-3717-the-murders-of-abby-and-libby

Tonight 8 PM EASTERN on Websleuths Radio Sheryl McCollum of The Cold Case Investigative Research Institute joins us on Websleuths Radio. Sheryl has some very interesting information about Abby Williams and Libby German.

 

[organised_chaos]

ok. bit confused :thinking: the girls were dropped off at 1pm, right? and organised pick-up was 3pm? or have i got that wrong? regardless - as a Mum (or a guardian) it would be natural to want to know why are you going to such-and-such at this particular time? Afternoon activities are different to morning activities. I just wonder if it was organised the night before or was it spontaneous such as at 10am 'Hey Mum (carer) can you drop us at the trials at 1pm?" in my house, afternoon activities have a whole different set of logistics, as there is working out who is going to be home to take care of the homestead and everything that goes with that (dinner, other kids, family etc)....I need lots more details with arvo activities...

 

[WebSight]

Perhaps the families will speak to this when they do their press conference on Thursday. The families work in conjunction with the funeral home staff to create the obituary. It is not a legal document.

This is from a UK site, I could not find similar information for USA:

"Legal time of death: The time at which the body was discovered or physically pronounced dead by another individual. This is the time that is shown - by law - on a death certificate."
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/estimating-the-time-of-death.html

Here is a good article on difficulties in pinpointing time of death. http://www.writersdigest.com/qp7-migration-books/forensics-excerpt

Thanks for the links - I will peruse them!

I bolded portions of your post that makes my point exactly regarding TOD for both girls. I think it is much more important to distinguish between legal TOD and a choice regarding an obituary. I am sure that distinction is very important to the police, why shouldn't it be to us?

Thanks for responding!