Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

[natsound]

About why kill him 3x.....

Steve's answer - that she did so because she's psycho- is both apt and beautifully succinct.

My opinion (never succinct, but hopefully apt at least here & there):

Having a gun was clearly extremely important to her, since she went to the effort, however clumsy, stupid, & self-defeating, of staging a burglary to obtain one.

To have is not necessarily to use, though,and IMO (on most days) is that she didn't intend to actually shoot him with it. The plotted and planned his murder for a long time. She didn't just want to kill him, she wanted to torment him as much as she could , in every way she could, before she stabbed him in the shower. Her texts and journals make plain that she remembered every "slight" by Travis, and that she forgave him not at all for anything, ever.

I think she brought the gun to mock him with it in the shower (his near death experience when a gun was pointed at his head), which would also have had the benefit of having him focus so much on the gun that he'd be utterly off guard when she pulled out the knife and stabbed him.

I think she slashed his throat out of increased rage that he hadn't conveniently died in the shower, as she had imagined he would, that he had resisted her will all the way down the hall, that he had kept on trying to talk.

And, am least sure why she shot him after she slashed his throat, except to speculate perhaps she just hadn't gotten her fill of killing him yet.

About why leave the camera? For me, that's one of the biggest don't knows, and from JM 's post- book interviews, I think he really doesn't know either.

It's so strange to me that she would HAVE THE CAMERA AS SHE DRAGGED HIM DOWN THE HALLWAY, but leave it in the washing machine.

As far as the throat slashing, I think you're right that she was surprised he was still mobile after stabbing him in the chest and back, and she wanted to do him off. I imagine he was looking right into his eyes when she pulled that knife so deeply across his throat.

I can't imagine he would even still be slightly moving after she dragged him back to the bathroom. Maybe she heard gurgling sounds and felt she had to shoot him to make sure the job was done.

I try to imagine how she managed to stab him in the shower the first time. I imagine, after she took the picture with his eyes open, she told him to shut his eyes, and he did, then she plunged the knife in his chest.

 

[Steve44]

About why leave the camera? For me, that's one of the biggest don't knows, and from JM 's post- book interviews, I think he really doesn't know either.

Perhaps as a taunt: "There were pictures, but you'll never see them!"

Egotistical, but not very intelligent. i.e. par for the course.

 

[natsound]

IMO, an upside-down license plate would make a vehicle stand out and I cannot see anyone who is trying to hide in plain sight willfully installing a plate upside down. I believe she removed plates so no one could jot down the numbers in the event her vehicle aroused suspicion in the neighborhood, then put them back on in haste somewhere a distance away from the murder scene and that it may have been dark at the time, or dark enough that she did not notice it was upside down.

She plotted and planned in advance but when everything went down it didn't all go according to plan and she was pressed for time almost from the beginning, which resulted in her making some major mistakes. The palm print, for one. Upside-down license plate on her getaway car was likely another.

All IMO.

This all sounds very reasonable. She must have been working very quickly, maybe shaking, when she put the plate on upside down.

It's amazing that the Utah officer who pulled her over didn't see any staining in the car. I can't believe she drove that thing around and let the friend (Lisa Udi?) sit on the stained passenger seat!

 

[natsound]

Perhaps as a taunt: "There were pictures, but you'll never see them!"

Egotistical, but not very intelligent. i.e. par for the course.

She obviously thought the camera would be bleached clean. Her shock when Esteban Flores informed her of the pictures during the interrogation... priceless. If only we could have seen her face clearly. Leaving that camera behind is her biggest regret.

 

[Steve44]

Martinez mentioned in his book that he saw grey in JA's hair during the trial. I didn't see it. But I bet she's getting grey now, and her cheeks are just beginning to sag (you can see that in her most recent mug shot). I wonder if she's now reflecting on the choices that ruined her life, for the rest of her life.

In her own mind, she was always the exception to every rule. We all know just how far she chose to take that. Far enough that her life is now filled with rules, and precious little exception.

 

[Steve44]

She obviously thought the camera would be bleached clean. Her shock when Esteban Flores informed her of the pictures during the interrogation... priceless. If only we could have seen her face clearly. Leaving that camera behind is her biggest regret.

Those pictures, as well as the other forensic evidence, caused her whole defensive superstructure of "I wasn't even there!!!" to collapse, in stages, to the ninja defense, to self-defense, the latter of which led to smearing Travis during trial. All her effort to conceal her trip to Arizona came quickly to naught, and she had little else to defend herself. She had two almost impossible tasks at trial: to redeem her own reputation and at the same time malign Travis'. Anyone else but her could see how unlikely either were, let alone both simultaneously.

 

[Hope4More]

It's so strange to me that she would HAVE THE CAMERA AS SHE DRAGGED HIM DOWN THE HALLWAY, but leave it in the washing machine.

As far as the throat slashing, I think you're right that she was surprised he was still mobile after stabbing him in the chest and back, and she wanted to do him off. I imagine he was looking right into his eyes when she pulled that knife so deeply across his throat.

I can't imagine he would even still be slightly moving after she dragged him back to the bathroom. Maybe she heard gurgling sounds and felt she had to shoot him to make sure the job was done.

I try to imagine how she managed to stab him in the shower the first time. I imagine, after she took the picture with his eyes open, she told him to shut his eyes, and he did, then she plunged the knife in his chest.]



I agree with krkrjx (and many others here) that the was thrown by her meticulously planned murder not unfolding exactly as she had imagined it would, and made mistakes she otherwise might have been able to avoid.

Travis was supposed to die in the shower, for example, which would have limited the amount of cleaning up and staging she'd have to do. IMO, she also was set back many hours by Travis's resistance (or perhaps outright refusal, still a matter of opinion) to being intimate with her and heading on into that shower much earlier in the day.

The murder was delayed, his roommates were due to arrive within a very short time, she had to hurry to get out of the house before they returned. JM has indicated he thinks one possibility is that she accidentally gathered up the camera with bloody towels she then threw in the wash. I can imagine that scenario pretty readily, but can also imagine that she was so sure about her own knowledge of cameras, being a professional photographer and all (snark), that she was sure the wash and bleach would destroy his camera, and knew it would look hinky if his camera was the only item stolen.

Again about the license plates.....picture daylight rush hour driving, bumper to bumper, first for at least 10 minutes on a congested, 2 lane suburban street, then for nearly an hour on a heavily trafficked urban beltway, still in daylight.

I cannot imagine her driving that first hour plus, in the daylight, with no tags, either in the front or back. Way, way, too risky.

Whatever she did with the tags, and whenever she did it, I'm convinced she had that rear tag on when she drove out of his immediate neighborhood (between T's house and the freeways out of Mesa, there is no out of the way, out of sight place to pull over and change tags without being witnessed).

 

[Hope4More]

Those pictures, as well as the other forensic evidence, caused her whole defensive superstructure of "I wasn't even there!!!" to collapse, in stages, to the ninja defense, to self-defense, the latter of which led to smearing Travis during trial. All her effort to conceal her trip to Arizona came quickly to naught, and she had little else to defend herself. She had two almost impossible tasks at trial: to redeem her own reputation and at the same time malign Travis'. Anyone else but her could see how unlikely either were, let alone both simultaneously.

I believe Nurmi, that she was more interested in destroying T's reputation than saving her own life, much less her reputation.

Which is one reason why I'm very much looking forward to hearing Nurmi's full rebuttal to her civil case, at trial, if the is stupid enough to pursue her vendetta against Nurmi in court.

 

[Steve44]

More than a few folks here don't believe they DID have sex that day.

I for one believe they did, not only because of the pictures, which admittedly leave room for doubt, but because IMO it matches her psychology. Everything about the murder was personal; it was revenge against Travis for a failed relationship, one based almost exclusively on sex, and I think her need to be assured that she was the last one to sleep with him ever was important to her, and something that would allow her to 'go on' without him with a sense of final psychological victory over the relationship, and over Travis.

 

[Steve44]

I believe Nurmi, that she was more interested in destroying T's reputation than saving her own life, much less her reputation.

Which is one reason why I'm very much looking forward to hearing Nurmi's full rebuttal to her civil case, at trial, if the is stupid enough to pursue her vendetta against Nurmi in court.

But strategically, they're two sides of the same coin, and I think at some point the idea of making herself the victim in the public's eye must have had some degree of personal appeal, and if successful would have been the ground beneath her feet as she walked away a free 'woman'.

 

[geevee]

Michael Kiefer‏Verified account
@michaelbkiefer

Jodi Arias filed an ethics complaint against prosecutor Juan Martinez; it's been dismissed http://azc.cc/2mdE59D via @azcentral
-----

Just catching up on the recent conversation, need to read the linked article and then gather my thoughts to add.

Good to see everyone!

 

[geevee]

Is that a kinda-sorta vindication for JM? No clear and convincing evidence of the charges but finger wagging if he did? At least it was dismissed.

I have thought for a while now that Arias hated Travis and one of the reasons for the overkill, even long after his death she's still trying to kill him and anyone who spoke against her.

I agree with Hope she likely wouldn't have dared drive in traffic without license plates, I think she was in such a hurry to get at least the back plate on that she didn't notice it was upside down.

I don't think they slept together that day, I don't even think they spoke during any of her calls while she was on her way, just left vm's that she erased later near Kingman (if he hadn't wiped them first).

 

[Steve44]

Is that a kinda-sorta vindication for JM? No clear and convincing evidence of the charges but finger wagging if he did? At least it was dismissed.

Legal boundaries can be separate from moral boundaries, particularly in a free society, however, if a law is just, when a legal boundary is crossed so is a moral boundary, but then the moral question is answered and addressed only in legal terms.

I don't know what Juan did or didn't do, but the question is if legal boundaries were crossed. If not, the moral issues remain the purview of the individuals involved.

 

[natsound]

It's so strange to me that she would HAVE THE CAMERA AS SHE DRAGGED HIM DOWN THE HALLWAY, but leave it in the washing machine.

As far as the throat slashing, I think you're right that she was surprised he was still mobile after stabbing him in the chest and back, and she wanted to do him off. I imagine he was looking right into his eyes when she pulled that knife so deeply across his throat.

I can't imagine he would even still be slightly moving after she dragged him back to the bathroom. Maybe she heard gurgling sounds and felt she had to shoot him to make sure the job was done.

I try to imagine how she managed to stab him in the shower the first time. I imagine, after she took the picture with his eyes open, she told him to shut his eyes, and he did, then she plunged the knife in his chest.]



I agree with krkrjx (and many others here) that the was thrown by her meticulously planned murder not unfolding exactly as she had imagined it would, and made mistakes she otherwise might have been able to avoid.

Travis was supposed to die in the shower, for example, which would have limited the amount of cleaning up and staging she'd have to do. IMO, she also was set back many hours by Travis's resistance (or perhaps outright refusal, still a matter of opinion) to being intimate with her and heading on into that shower much earlier in the day.

The murder was delayed, his roommates were due to arrive within a very short time, she had to hurry to get out of the house before they returned. JM has indicated he thinks one possibility is that she accidentally gathered up the camera with bloody towels she then threw in the wash. I can imagine that scenario pretty readily, but can also imagine that she was so sure about her own knowledge of cameras, being a professional photographer and all (snark), that she was sure the wash and bleach would destroy his camera, and knew it would look hinky if his camera was the only item stolen.

Again about the license plates.....picture daylight rush hour driving, bumper to bumper, first for at least 10 minutes on a congested, 2 lane suburban street, then for nearly an hour on a heavily trafficked urban beltway, still in daylight.

I cannot imagine her driving that first hour plus, in the daylight, with no tags, either in the front or back. Way, way, too risky.

Whatever she did with the tags, and whenever she did it, I'm convinced she had that rear tag on when she drove out of his immediate neighborhood (between T's house and the freeways out of Mesa, there is no out of the way, out of sight place to pull over and change tags without being witnessed).

BBM

Is there evidence that the two did not have sex that day, or he resisted her?

Hinky that the camera would be stolen, but perhaps hinkier that it was thrown in the wash? I don't know her line of thinking there. Panicked, anyway. I agree with Steve44 that she might have done it as a taunt after her deed. She probably imagined there would be no trace of blood on the towels either.

One of TA's roommates was home during the time he was dead, right?

I wonder how strong the smell was. Mimi Hall indicated a strong smell when they entered the home looking for TA, but no one went into any detail about that.

 

[natsound]

I for one believe they did, not only because of the pictures, which admittedly leave room for doubt, but because IMO it matches her psychology. Everything about the murder was personal; it was revenge against Travis for a failed relationship, one based almost exclusively on sex, and I think her need to be assured that she was the last one to sleep with him ever was important to her, and something that would allow her to 'go on' without him with a sense of final psychological victory over the relationship, and over Travis.

BBM

YES. She also needed to prove to herself that he still thought of her as sexually irresistible, even though he had turned his head toward Mimi Hall.

 

[Hope4More]

Is that a kinda-sorta vindication for JM? No clear and convincing evidence of the charges but finger wagging if he did? At least it was dismissed.

I have thought for a while now that Arias hated Travis and one of the reasons for the overkill, even long after his death she's still trying to kill him and anyone who spoke against her.

I agree with Hope she likely wouldn't have dared drive in traffic without license plates, I think she was in such a hurry to get at least the back plate on that she didn't notice it was upside down.

I don't think they slept together that day, I don't even think they spoke during any of her calls while she was on her way, just left vm's that she erased later near Kingman (if he hadn't wiped them first).

Hi sister Geevee..

What the Bar said, obliquely, was that JM exposed himself to some of the(baseless) charges of impropriety by the by giving excess to his office, after hours, to two members of the "media," both of whom Clark alleged he had sex with (denied by both women).

JM having "affairs" of whatever sort isn't against the law or a violation of bar ethics, even if the charges were true, which personally, I don't believe they are. The most serious charge JM faced was that he used his alleged affairs to leak confidential and privileged information about the hold out juror's identity. That was an outrageous fabrication, imo, and one that can be laid squarely at the feet of Tammy Rose. The Bar was utterly dismissive of that charge.

Clark responded to the dismissal by reiterating her contention that JM had transgressed, egregiously, and that she'd appeal. The odds of a successful appeal are about zero, since in order to succeed Clark would have to prove that the Bar had abused it's discretion in arriving at their decision. Nah.

I'm guessing Clark is waging this battle not so much for the , but because she sees herself as a warrior against the very real and across the board corruption in AZ's legal system, and because she , along with most of the defense bar in AZ, loathes JM- for his firm support of the DP, and because of his aggressiveness in every phase of trial.

(PS- I don't think they spoke the day of her travel there either, and agree, given the length of the calls, that VM, not Travis, picked up. He did not want her there, and in fact, if you recall, was that day trying to make plans to go camping that very night).

 

[Hope4More]

BBM

Is there evidence that the two did not have sex that day, or he resisted her?

Hinky that the camera would be stolen, but perhaps hinkier that it was thrown in the wash? I don't know her line of thinking there. Panicked, anyway. I agree with Steve44 that she might have done it as a taunt after her deed. She probably imagined there would be no trace of blood on the towels either.

One of TA's roommates was home during the time he was dead, right?

I wonder how strong the smell was. Mimi Hall indicated a strong smell when they entered the home looking for TA, but no one went into any detail about that.

(Sorry, NatSound, messed up your quote-link somehow).



If you go back through old, post-trials threads here, you'll find literally many hundreds of posts discussing (and arguing ) about the evidence of whether or not they had sex that day.

One of the arguments, related to whether or not he resisted attempts by her to seduce him (of course she wanted to have sex with him, for the reasons you and Steve are discussing and many more), is one of inference, given the timeline , and imo is on point whether or not he eventually capitulated:

that the wouldn't have deliberately given Ryan Burns an arrival time to his house that was so much earlier than what it turned out to be had her killing of Travis gone as planned, and central to her planning was his getting in the shower after they had sex.

_____

Yes, both roommates were home for days after Travis was murdered, but neither noticed anything amiss for any of that time,including the odor of decomp. At least one of those roommates has said since that he is still feels guilty that he didn't know Travis was dead in the next door room, and haunted by the realization he lived there for days without knowing.

 

[natsound]

If you go back through old, post-trials threads here, you'll find literally many hundreds of posts discussing (and arguing ) about the evidence of whether or not they had sex that day.

One of the arguments, related to whether or not he resisted attempts by her to seduce him (of course she wanted to have sex with him, for the reasons you and Steve are discussing and many more), is one of inference, given the timeline , and imo is on point whether or not he eventually capitulated:

that the wouldn't have deliberately given Ryan Burns an arrival time to his house that was so much earlier than what it turned out to be had her killing of Travis gone as planned, and central to her planning was his getting in the shower after they had sex.

_____

Yes, both roommates were home for days after Travis was murdered, but neither noticed anything amiss for any of that time,including the odor of decomp. At least one of those roommates has said since that he is still feels guilty that he didn't know Travis was dead in the next door room, and haunted by the realization he lived there for days without knowing.

I see what you're saying. Well, on the other hand, we know he took triple-x-rated pictures of her body parts that afternoon, so I don't know why he would turn down sex if he was willing to do that.

Also, he was preparing to go out of town, so JA presented an opportunity to sew his oats before going on a trip with a woman who planned not to sleep with him.

 

[Hope4More]

I see what you're saying. Well, on the other hand, we know he took triple-x-rated pictures of her body parts that afternoon, so I don't know why he would turn down sex if he was willing to do that.

Also, he was preparing to go out of town, so JA presented an opportunity to sew his oats before going on a trip with a woman who planned not to sleep with him.

I'm definitely not going to wade into that fraught debate again. Really am not.

But to recapitulate, very briefly, the heart of the debate- the opinions one has about whether or not they had sex that day were based on opinions about psychology, what happened in their May 28 text/call fight (how those texts are interpreted), how afraid he really was of her, what the photos supposedly taken the day of his death actually reveal, and disagreements about whether or not those photos were actually taken on that day.

 

[natsound]

I'm definitely not going to wade into that fraught debate again. Really am not.

But to recapitulate, very briefly, the heart of the debate- the opinions one has about whether or not they had sex that day were based on opinions about psychology, what happened in their May 28 text/call fight (how those texts are interpreted), how afraid he really was of her, what the photos supposedly taken the day of his death actually reveal, and disagreements about whether or not those photos were actually taken on that day.

Gotcha. I wouldn't ask you to jump back into that debate! At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because the outcome is what it is.