Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #20

[petedavo.au]

Thanks Petedavo, excellent explanation! It is fascinating though to me that some cases seem to be totally reliant on DNA evidence - create the slightest doubt with that and it all collapses. And the fact DNA appears so conclusive to we mere mortals in the general public (well everyone I speak to family, friends etc. and also when I speak to myself!) because of conditioning by media - TV shows, movies, fictional books (and some factual ones too!) Things that make you go HMMMM....

And if you think fingerprints are infallible, look at the case of Brandon Mayfield.

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[Kambo]

no name & lampformypath - OMG I hope I NEVER get called for jury duty. Very scary. Such a huge responsibility. MOO

I actually look forward to it. I have only had it once when I was much younger and didn’t really understand the process. Strange case about an odd fellow with an imaginary friend named “David” who rode a green bicycle who he blamed for all of his misdemeanors.

He was acquited - I can only hope he got the help he needed.

 

[Canning Vale]

No name, many thanks for the feedback.

As per usual I’m unable to reply with a quote…

I’ve been on jury duty myself - a southern suburbs rape case – 1990s. One juror kept laughing, whilst sensitive, issues were spoken about – very disappointing.

On the actual day of the case’s commencement an external case made big news – a couple of sailors who’d been serving time for rape, made headlines because the victim had fessed up advising she wasn’t raped at all – offhand they’d served three years.

Regarding the southern suburbs rape case…. One of the older male jurors kept referring to what was going on externally – a couple of sailors wrongfully convicted. The male juror kept advising I’m not happy to convict the accused because I might be wrong. One of the female jurors kneeled down and whilst crying, actually begged this juror to change his mind and plead guilty – but he wouldn’t.

Another male juror purposely sat on the fence - just didn’t want to take responsibility.

Never mind, the perpetrator was still convicted, because eight of us did vote guilty - he got about 8 years.

 

[Annalise]

What scares me is the people on the jury could be unstable or unsuitable to be a juror. These people literally have your life in their hands. All it takes is for most people to decide your guilty and that’s it - banged up for life. Maybe the Judge only trial is best. At least the Judge has full knowledge of the law. Might stand a chance of a fairer trial that way. But - hey what do I know! MOO

 

[Kambo]

What scares me is the people on the jury could be unstable or unsuitable to be a juror. These people literally have your life in their hands. All it takes is for most people to decide your guilty and that’s it - banged up for life. Maybe the Judge only trial is best. At least the Judge has full knowledge of the law. Might stand a chance of a fairer trial that way. But - hey what do I know! MOO

Only have to look at recent sexual assault case in Perth as a classic example of this. By all reports he was a pillar of the community. She obviously has her identity protected - both parties heavily intoxicated after a long night of drinking and it came down to her word vs his.

He is now in a jail cell for 2 1/2 years because they believed her version. Not saying i know who is wrong or right but I just can’t see how he was found guilty beyond reasonable doubt.


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[Pandit]

Hi Jan,

It will be interesting when and if a trial proceeds, if the defence raises questions of any other unidentified stranger DNA aside from BRE's being found with the girls.

That's why I think there were probably 2 offenders.just like in the case where the women escaped from the car and broke her ankle. Another oddity, there are no reports of other girls going up and down the street, didn't all the bench sitters and burger scoffers notice any one else get in a taxi. With 2 people they could lure and trap then drive off within minutes flick the back seat and begin the attack.All the poor girl could do was dig her fingers into any fabric she could feel. JMT

 

[Annalise]

Hi Jan,

It will be interesting when and if a trial proceeds, if the defence raises questions of any other unidentified stranger DNA aside from BRE's being found with the girls.

Pandit - do you think it’s possible the CSK had help from another person for some of the alleged attacks? Would have to be someone he trusted implicitly. It will be very interesting if during the trial the defence brings up DNA from a stranger. MOO

 

[petedavo.au]

And if you think fingerprints are infallible, look at the case of Brandon Mayfield.

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https://youtu.be/nxn9hHn50BU

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[Pandit]

Seems he was alone in the Huntingdale attack and Karrakatta but there's also reports of two men involved in other incidents. If there was, imo there almost certainly would be another location the girls were taken to.

The police may have found that other location and we just don't know about it they're so secretive, looks paranoid imo. If the girls were dragged, rubbed knees, elbows or hips might have held fragments of materials foreign to the dump site. Concrete, stones, gravel, carpet, soils, paint even, foliage or seeds ... so many unknowns.

Pandit - do you think it’s possible the CSK had help from another person for some of the alleged attacks? Would have to be someone he trusted implicitly. It will be very interesting if during the trial the defence brings up DNA from a stranger. MOO

 

[janwa]

Hi Jan,

It will be interesting when and if a trial proceeds, if the defence raises questions of any other unidentified stranger DNA aside from BRE's being found with the girls.

I'm not saying both took part in the attacks one may have been a driver, enabler, cleaner. Wouldn't leave DNA with paper overshoes and surgical gloves.

 

[WhyWhy]

Really well explored scenarios. As a local, I’d wonder on the abduct and move with force posit - unless one could knock someone out pretty much immediately, then too many houses/residences near by to risk someone screaming. Multi-unit low rise adjacent and opposite on Stirling St. But greatly respect Bunnies’ point of view and the speed of a blitz!



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[lampformypath]

And if you think fingerprints are infallible, look at the case of Brandon Mayfield.

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Don't know that case Petedavo, I'll check it out.
Oy Vey, what can we rely on today, to help us make these incredibly life-changing decisions if we're on a jury?

Oh how I long for when Perry Mason strode into TV courtroom land (Remember him, no? Didn't think so, he was on the tele when TVs had no colour, just grainy old black and white and everyone had dishwater grey skin, the good old days??) Now he was ALWAYS right!

 

[lampformypath]

No name, many thanks for the feedback.

As per usual I’m unable to reply with a quote…

I’ve been on jury duty myself - a southern suburbs rape case – 1990s. One juror kept laughing, whilst sensitive, issues were spoken about – very disappointing.

On the actual day of the case’s commencement an external case made big news – a couple of sailors who’d been serving time for rape, made headlines because the victim had fessed up advising she wasn’t raped at all – offhand they’d served three years.

Regarding the southern suburbs rape case…. One of the older male jurors kept referring to what was going on externally – a couple of sailors wrongfully convicted. The male juror kept advising I’m not happy to convict the accused because I might be wrong. One of the female jurors kneeled down and whilst crying, actually begged this juror to change his mind and plead guilty – but he wouldn’t.

Another male juror purposely sat on the fence - just didn’t want to take responsibility.

Never mind, the perpetrator was still convicted, because eight of us did vote guilty - he got about 8 years.

Oh Canning Vale what a dreadful experience! You know people should hear these stories of what goes on in some of these jury rooms. That poor woman who begged that other juror, the anguish she must have felt and the desperation! People's true natures come out when they get a "little bit of power" sometimes, quite frightening. It's the fact that 99% of people just don't care one way or the other about justice. It's a broken system, but it's the only one we've got.

 

[lampformypath]

https://youtu.be/nxn9hHn50BU

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Thanks so much Petedavo! I'll watch that tomorrow, looks awesome, getting very late now...fftobed:zzzz

 

[no name]

Lamp & CV, your experiences ring so true. I could comment and expand on each and every thing you both said without even touching on the many other aspects that never even register with half of your usual jury. Not to mention the games the lawyers play in disrupting proceedings and getting juries removed from the court room at critical times when they think they're "losing them", or when something is making their case look very sketchy. I wont even start on the way the police put things together to make them seem a certain way. They are the holders of the evidence & all the info afterall. Legislation or not regarding full disclosure, did it really exist if its not there and no one knows about it?
I'll say no more about that though except to say that sometimes it really is a case of whos lawyer tells the best story or who the jury gravitate towards for whatever reason.

The thing that really gets my goat about our imperfect system though, is the uproar you hear from all the armchair experts who have followed a case through media reporting only and who write letters of outrage expressing their disgust at the sentences handed down by the judges. Not only have they sat through the entire case, heard all the evidence, have the knowledge to know how to sift through the important parts and follow the strictest of guidelines that govern the laws of sentencing as passed by parliament & taking into account all the precedents previously set - apparently, they're the ones who are out of touch! Thats mind blowing.

 

[petedavo.au]

Pandit - do you think it’s possible the CSK had help from another person for some of the alleged attacks? Would have to be someone he trusted implicitly. It will be very interesting if during the trial the defence brings up DNA from a stranger. MOO

Interesting, but there's no hint of it in the media. However you might want to consider this:

How many years was it before the Kimono and other evidence was sent off to the UK for DNA analysis?

Extract from the attached PDF>

The FBI explains the use of mtDNA further, and how they use it – Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is typically analyzed
in evidence containing naturally shed hairs, hair fragments, bones, and teeth. Typically, these items contain low
concentrations of degraded DNA, making them unsuitable for nDNA examinations. The high sensitivity of mtDNA analysis
allows scientists to obtain information from old items of evidence associated with cold cases, samples from mass
disasters, and small pieces of evidence containing little biological material.
Additionally, the maternal inheritance of mtDNA allows scientists to compare a mtDNA profile to reference samples from
that person’s mother, brother(s), sister(s), or any other maternally related individuals. All of these individuals have the same
mtDNA profiles because all maternal relatives inherit their mtDNA from their mother. Because multiple individuals can
have the same mtDNA type, unique identifications are not possible using mtDNA analysis.

So if there's a long time between collecting the sample and analysis then on mtDNA can be recovered?

So a cousin would have the same mtDNA if their mothers were sisters? As would a sibling, the mother, the aunty, and cousins in that scenario? Interesting. So it might be possible to have two or more people in samples, however the testing couldn't tell them apart, and so one might not know?

If I'm reading this document correctly, and it's not out of date as far as technological abilities to recover nDNA from old samples, or to differentiate individuals from mtDNA.View attachment cas_sample.pdf

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[El Gordo]

I always thought it was illegal to discuss what went on in Jury Rooms for specific cases , how verdicts were reached and what happened during deliberations ,... i think it comes under the Rule Of Conduct , clauses like You Must Not Publish To The Public Jury Information ... i must have read it in a book somewhere

 

[MissUnderstood]

Interesting, but there's no hint of it in the media. However you might want to consider this:

How many years was it before the Kimono and other evidence was sent off to the UK for DNA analysis?

Extract from the attached PDF>


So if there's a long time between collecting the sample and analysis then on mtDNA can be recovered?

So a cousin would have the same mtDNA if their mothers were sisters? As would a sibling, the mother, the aunty, and cousins in that scenario? Interesting. So it might be possible to have two or more people in samples, however the testing couldn't tell them apart, and so one might not know?

If I'm reading this document correctly, and it's not out of date as far as technological abilities to recover nDNA from old samples, or to differentiate individuals from mtDNA.View attachment 131423

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Was the kimono sent for testing before or after we see it being held up in a pic by an ungloved officer!!!! Moo


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[Akai]

Was the kimono sent for testing before or after we see it being held up in a pic by an ungloved officer!!!! Moo


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I am guessing that the police officer was holding up another identical kimono that they acquired. This might also explain why, as far as we know nobody has identified it as theirs - if it was a reasonably common item.

If that was the actual kimono there are going to be a lot of arguments about it and given from what we know it is a crucial link that might prove a big problem.


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[aequitas]

http://www.indyeastend.com/Articles...7-THE-COP-WHO-TRACKED-A-COLD-CASE-KILLER.html

this article is truly fascinating re familial DNA (and the info on semen as DNA evidence)