Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #20

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the article I posted today referring to another case contained an interesting face refgarding semen degradation. If a man ejaculates inside a woman, her body will break down it down quickly; however, if she is killed shortly after the man ejaculates, the degradation process does not occur and it is more likely preserved. It also allows forensic to figure sequence of rape and subsequent homicide. Interesting!!!

Thanks Aequitas, and everyone who is contributing to this discussion. I think we are all learning so much about this DNA minefield, and forensics in general, which appears to be contradicting itself at a very rapid pace as more and more research is done. It's wonderful that we are all really contemplating this case on a very deep level and posting fantastic links. Great work! Who knows what we'll all discover together! :findinglink:
 
Regarding the kimono, some reading I have done indicates that while semen is broken down in the vagina, it can survive on fabrics for several years and it would take several washes for it to be broken down before it could be reduced to a non-detectable level. So they could have preserved the kimono all that time and potentially gotten a testable semen sample from it.

ETA: Link. I read a few articles, but this one covers the points I am making the best.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/6957777/Semen-stains-may-last-years

The semen degradation cycle discussed in some of the aforementioned articles raises an interesting thought to me. It is possible that the reason police have not been able to do anything about any rape that may have occured with regards to JR and CG is because the semen may have broken down too much for them to get any viable samples. There may have been physical evidence of something, but not enough to pin it on anyone. Having said that, semen does last longer in the vagina after a woman is dead because their body is not producing the substances to break it down, but given the timeframe between death and discovery of the body it might be too long. However, it would be interesting whether they could trace anything forensically about when the women died comparative to their bodies being found.


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Sure, CV. I have the advantage that my father is a biologist!

Cells are made up of a number of components. All our cells actually contain two types of DNA: in the nucleus (nDNA) and in the mitochondria (mtDNA).

The DNA we typically hear referred to is the nDNA, which is our unqiue genetic fingerprint. This comes from our mother via the ovum (egg) and our father via the spermatozoa (sperm). They each contribute 50% of our nDNA.

Within the egg there is also mtDNA. (While there is also mtDNA in the sperm, this appears to be destroyed upon fertilization. This is an area of debate for scientists.) This means that the mtDNA is passed directly from mother to child, unmodified. mtDNA travels unmodified down the maternal side of any family.

To give an example: a woman has two children - a male and a female. They will both have her mtDNA. If they both have children, the female will pass the mtDNA to her child. However, the male's partner will pass the mtDNA to the child. So the child of the female child will have the exact same mtDNA as the original woman, but the child of the male child will not have any of it.

By contrast, the two children of the original woman will have nDNA that is comprised of 50% hers and 50% their father's. Their children will have 50% theirs and 50% their partner's. So both the male and female grandchildren will be only 25% of the original woman.

So if you have a sample of mtDNA you can connect it directly by following the maternal bloodline both forwards and backwards as far as you like. If you have nDNA you can follow it to parents, grandparents and potentially siblings, but it gets harder the further out you go.

I hope that helps!

(I realise for anyone reading this with a biology background that my language and percentages oversimplify genetics, but they are just being used to provide an overview and comparison.)

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WOW and WOW again Akai! Obi Wan has taught you well! :goodpost:Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that so beautifully, and thank you CV for asking so nicely. I think we were all starting to drown in a Mitochondrial swamp, yuck!
 
Policing is still a mixture of methods along with the new fangled technical and biological assistance they still have to work out if the suspect/suspects had Means,Motive and Opportunity.
 
I just want to add something to my post on nDNA and mtDNA. I didn't include it in the original comment because I felt it might add confusion, but it does warrant mention.

In theory the mtDNA will be identical in all of us. In fact, scientists believe they have traced it back to one woman about 200,000 years ago. So that would mean it is impossible to trace.

However, the variation is caused by genetic mutations, and this can enable tracing through mtDNA.


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I just want to add something to my post on nDNA and mtDNA. I didn't include it in the original comment because I felt it might add confusion, but it does warrant mention.

In theory the mtDNA will be identical in all of us. In fact, scientists believe they have traced it back to one woman about 200,000 years ago. So that would mean it is impossible to trace.

However, the variation is caused by genetic mutations, and this can enable tracing through mtDNA.


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I think the confusing thing in the case of the kimono, will be having to wait till it comes out in court to answer these questions.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/forensics-dna-fingerprinting-and-codis-736
"Sometimes, the DNA from crime scene evidence is in a very small quantity, poorly preserved, or highly degraded, so only a partial DNA profile can be obtained. When fewer than 13 STR loci are examined, the overall genotype frequency is higher, therefore making the probability of a random match higher as well."



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Many thanks to Akai, Petedavo and Aequitas for the information on the DNA – fantastic information…

Thinking about it…. if semen is found within a victim who’s dead, that proves sexual intercourse occurred. However, it doesn’t prove whether it was consensual or not, and possibly why the accused hasn’t been charged with rape of JR & CG. Not that I'm suggesting that he did. JMO

Also, the accused hasn't been charged with abduction because it cannot be proven. Just my thoughts.
 
I think the confusing thing in the case of the kimono, will be having to wait till it comes out in court to answer these questions.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/forensics-dna-fingerprinting-and-codis-736
"Sometimes, the DNA from crime scene evidence is in a very small quantity, poorly preserved, or highly degraded, so only a partial DNA profile can be obtained. When fewer than 13 STR loci are examined, the overall genotype frequency is higher, therefore making the probability of a random match higher as well."



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I agree that we'll have to wait with regards to the kimono.

I think the best DNA sample will be from KK because by all accounts she seems to have been attended to by medical professionals very shortly after it happened. The others I am not so sure about.

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Many thanks to Akai, Petedavo and Aequitas for the information on the DNA – fantastic information…

Thinking about it…. if semen is found within a victim who’s dead, that proves sexual intercourse occurred. However, it doesn’t prove whether it was consensual or not, and possibly why the accused hasn’t been charged with rape of JR & CG.

Also, the accused hasn't been charged with abduction because it cannot be proven. Just my thoughts.

You're most welcome CV.

I agree with your thoughts about rape and abduction. It suggests to me that there are probably a few gaps in the police's evidence and a lot of what they present about how the women were taken and killed, and what happened in between, may be theoretical.

Another thing I noticed with the charges is that they didn't charge him with "Interfering with a corpse". Which may mean that they can't connect the accused to the actual disposal of the bodies.

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I just want to add something to my post on nDNA and mtDNA. I didn't include it in the original comment because I felt it might add confusion, but it does warrant mention.

In theory the mtDNA will be identical in all of us. In fact, scientists believe they have traced it back to one woman about 200,000 years ago. So that would mean it is impossible to trace.

However, the variation is caused by genetic mutations, and this can enable tracing through mtDNA.


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Didn't they call her Eve - first woman?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
 
Yes, that's who I was referring to 200,000 years ago.

I should clarify that I was talking theoretically about an individual from whom we all descended if they keep tracing back forever.

Mitochondrial Eve who they have linked to about 200,000 years ago is one lineage. The article is good because it explains how there may be people alive today who cannot be traced back to her, and why other women alive then may have descendents that can't be traced back to them. Mitochondrial Eve is the original woman who can be traced back in a direct lineage.

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Many thanks to Akai, Petedavo and Aequitas for the information on the DNA – fantastic information…

Thinking about it…. if semen is found within a victim who’s dead, that proves sexual intercourse occurred. However, it doesn’t prove whether it was consensual or not, and possibly why the accused hasn’t been charged with rape of JR & CG. Not that I'm suggesting that he did. JMO

Also, the accused hasn't been charged with abduction because it cannot be proven. Just my thoughts.

Hi CV, I think BRE has been charged with abduction (of both JR & CG), according to this initial press conference by Karl O'Callaghan. I had to watch it again as I had a feeling he'd said "abduction" but the mind plays tricks, anyway, certainly sounds like they've charged him with it. There's so much we don't know of course, and maybe never will:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKBE1YW9Hew
 
I just want to add something to my post on nDNA and mtDNA. I didn't include it in the original comment because I felt it might add confusion, but it does warrant mention.

In theory the mtDNA will be identical in all of us. In fact, scientists believe they have traced it back to one woman about 200,000 years ago. So that would mean it is impossible to trace.

However, the variation is caused by genetic mutations, and this can enable tracing through mtDNA.


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Thanks for explaining :)

So, if I have two sons and the have kids that means my mtDNA ceases to exist in any future generation?


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Many thanks to Akai, Petedavo and Aequitas for the information on the DNA – fantastic information…

Thinking about it…. if semen is found within a victim who’s dead, that proves sexual intercourse occurred. However, it doesn’t prove whether it was consensual or not, and possibly why the accused hasn’t been charged with rape of JR & CG. Not that I'm suggesting that he did. JMO

Also, the accused hasn't been charged with abduction because it cannot be proven. Just my thoughts.

Hey CV, you know about the mind playing tricks, well I think my mind just did! I've listened to Karl again very closely and he says "police will allege JR was abducted" and same wording for CG, he doesn't say charged! But making allegations about abduction like that without a fair amount of proof could get them into hot water in court I would think? So apologies CV.
 
What scares me is the people on the jury could be unstable or unsuitable to be a juror. These people literally have your life in their hands. All it takes is for most people to decide your guilty and that’s it - banged up for life. Maybe the Judge only trial is best. At least the Judge has full knowledge of the law. Might stand a chance of a fairer trial that way. But - hey what do I know! MOO

Be careful what you wish for!
Judge only trials are seen as an option in Australia because our law enforcement and legal systems are for the most part benign and objective institutions.
This is not the case everywhere and may not always be the case here.
Google "jury nullification"
 
Hey CV, you know about the mind playing tricks, well I think my mind just did! I've listened to Karl again very closely and he says "police will allege JR was abducted" and same wording for CG, he doesn't say charged! But making allegations about abduction like that without a fair amount of proof could get them into hot water in court I would think? So apologies CV.

It's kind've interesting that he talked about abduction at all as it isn't in the charge list. Still he may just have been referring to events not in a legal sense.

The charges are :
3 x murder
2 x sexual assault
2 x deprivation of liberty
1 x indecent assault
1 x break and enter

So no abduction or interfering with a corpse. There's a bit of debate around whether the 2 x sexual assault are both KK, but they could be (a person can be charged twice for two sexual assaults in the one situation). Assuming deprivation of liberty relates to KK & HD, no deprivation of liberty charges re JR, CG or SS, either. Theoretically sexual assault and deprivation of liberty could be for one of the Claremont killings. But regardless, I think that says police don't have clear evidence of what happened to JR, CG or SS.



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Thanks for explaining :)

So, if I have two sons and the have kids that means my mtDNA ceases to exist in any future generation?


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Yes, unless you have a sister or half sister from your mother's side who has female offspring.


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It is likely they only laid charges for what they considered the best chances of a guilty verdict , they could add on all the charges they like and it will make no difference to a sentence
If found guilty he will never see daylight again anyway , so why complicate it

Throw in what they are not sure of and you risk the not guilty verdicts to start rolling ... They don't want that
 
It is likely they only laid charges for what they considered the best chances of a guilty verdict , they could add on all the charges they like and it will make no difference to a sentence
If found guilty he will never see daylight again anyway , so why complicate it

Throw in what they are not sure of and you risk the not guilty verdicts to start rolling ... They don't want that

But that's my point. If they don't think they have enough evidence to charge abduction/kidnapping, deprivation of liberty or interfering with a corpse it means they probably don't have enough evidence of those things, which means there are gaps in whatever theory they are going to present.


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There is only one way there will not be gaps in the story , if BRE tells the story , then there will be no guarantee it is the truth

I don't expect him to be telling his tale , so the gaps will remain and nobody will be any the wiser
 
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