CA CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #2

[Eloise]

This might be so off the wall, even for me....could this couple have an off the grid survivalist camp where missing children are?

Best case scenario imo is that they hid those kids somewhere with people they knew off grid or something, and the car crash happened afterwards. Is that possible, based on what is known of their movements?

This is why I think Sarah likely told Jenn, on that cliff, that it was over and she was leaving her and taking the kids.
That was likely the catalyst that caused the psychotic break.
Just one of the scenarios I’ve imagined.

I think that's totally possible. I think it's possible Sarah might have been emotionally abused by Jennifer as well, and had had enough. I hesitate to put Sarah in the same category as Jennifer even though she's the one that was punished for abuse. I think she was made to take the fall for Jennifer, by Jennifer.

ETA I'm not surprised Jennifer looks nothing like the media-friendly photos that are being put in the news.

 

[Amonet]

The timestamp on that picture in Safeway is 8.05 am. It says 08:05, not 20:05.

 

[claudianunes]

Best case scenario imo is that they hid those kids somewhere with people they knew off grid or something, and the car crash happened afterwards. Is that possible, based on what is known of their movements?





I think that's totally possible. I think it's possible Sarah might have been emotionally abused by Jennifer as well, and had had enough. I hesitate to put Sarah in the same category as Jennifer even though she's the one that was punished for abuse. I think she was made to take the fall for Jennifer, by Jennifer.

ETA I'm not surprised Jennifer looks nothing like the media-friendly photos that are being put in the news.

How come?

 

[Sleuth99]

Here's the article that says CPS attempted to visit the residence just after Jen arrived home from work, but she didn't answer the door. So, she did have a job, apparently.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/02/us/family-suv-pacific-coast-crash-what-we-know/index.html

Hmmm I think it's safe to say if they saw her returning home that she went out... but it doesn't necessarily mean she had a job.


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[CocoChanel]

ETA I'm not surprised Jennifer looks nothing like the media-friendly photos that are being put in the news.

How come?

My take on JH not looking like most of the many (many!) pix of her and the family that have been found online:
If the public photo trail of her family ended around 2016, perhaps because things were already spiraling out of control in her mind, then her appearance could have changed dramatically over the course of several months of increasing stress. That may be part of the reason why there aren’t many pictures to be found after 2016. JH was obviously very much interested in showing the world her ‘tribe’, especially with her beaming in the poses. I am struck by how many of these photos have been found. IMHO most of us would not want that many pictures of our family out there for public consumption, but JH seemed intent on doing that for reasons we can only guess at. If her appearance had been changing, like gaining weight for instance, she may have been self-conscious of that & not want that documented by photo evidence that could be easily seen. Just surmising here.

Also wanted to say that the report that JH arrived home ‘from work’ just shortly before SH, and then CPS knocked at their door soon after, came from the neighbor, Mrs. D. She may not have been accurate about where JH had been prior to arriving home. Like many things in this tragically bizarre, and bizarrely tragic case, this is mostly conjecture.

 

[Hola]

I don't have a link ATM, but I read that CPS had showed up shortly after Jen had returned from work, but no one answered the door. Shortly after that, Sarah arrived home.
Are we certain Jen didn't work?
Here's the link https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/02/us/family-suv-pacific-coast-crash-what-we-know/index.html

If Jen was the only adult home at the time CPS visited is it possible Sarah did not know? Perhaps the rush to leave on a trip was to keep her from finding out or time to coach a story before CPS could visit again.

 

[enelram]

“A woman said Tuesday that she told Oregon child welfare officials in 2013 that Jennifer and Sarah Hart — who plunged off a California cliff with their children last month in an SUV — had been depriving the kids of food as punishment.

In a statement provided to The Associated Press, Alexandra Argyropoulos, a former friend of the Harts, said she "witnessed what I felt to be controlling emotional abuse and cruel punishment" toward the six children.”

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/wo...years-before-deadly-suv-cliff-crash/726606304

OK, this confirms the earlier post where I mentioned this happening in July 2013. News reports say because police
were very close mouthed about details, it indicated, since it was characterised by police as a state Dept. of Human
Services Referral (abuse tip) and whenever abuse or neglect is suspected a confidential law kicks in.
So all this abuse is definitely "long term" and not something recent.

 

[Starkville]

Here's the article that says CPS attempted to visit the residence just after Jen arrived home from work, but she didn't answer the door. So, she did have a job, apparently.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/02/us/family-suv-pacific-coast-crash-what-we-know/index.html

Eh, I think someone made a mistake. It’s possible, though.

Reasons I think Jen didn’t have a job: if she was as controlling as I think she was, she’d never leave the kids unsupervised. She seemed to have an unnatural degree of control over everything in their lives. I don’t see her giving up control of that household for 40 hours (or even 20!) a week.

Reasons I think she might have: Devonte had been visiting the neighbors recently, up to three times a day. How was he able to escape so often? Maybe Jen wasn’t home.

Which leads me to wonder if she had a “deputy” of sorts, one kid she trusted in her absence. Like Devonte. And then she found out her trusted kid was the one involving outsiders and plotting an escape....

 

[gcharlie]

Again, please use caution before making any kinds of assumptions about the lives of these kids prior to adoption. Right now, it is only the mothers' narrative that they were seriously neglected and developmentally impaired.

With the news that broke yesterday, it's been learned that the kids were withdrawn from school the day after Sarah completed her probation, meaning they had been enrolled in school for just about 2 1/2 years in Minnesota. Markis would have attended Discovery Middle School and the younger children would have gone to Woodland Elementary School. This is a good school district.

One would expect that if these kids were as disadvantaged as the mothers claim, the kids would have qualified for special services and had IEPs or 405 plans.

I'm waiting to see if any chatter comes out on the web or through the news about these kids when they actually did attend school.

https://www.greatschools.org/minnesota/alexandria/496-Woodland-Elementary-School/

 

[Zelda1010]

Some of you are so good at this kind of thing. Now that we know or think they would have been traveling N before entering, what changes? Is it possible to enter the area at a higher rate of speed? Do we see tracks up top or make more sense of the crash site with a different angle of entry off the road?

That graphic from this article assumes Hart's were traveling South. http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/hart_children_immediately_pull.html

 

[Sleuth99]

Again, please use caution before making any kinds of assumptions about the lives of these kids prior to adoption. Right now, it is only the mothers' narrative that they were seriously neglected and developmentally impaired.

With the news that broke yesterday, it's been learned that the kids were withdrawn from school the day after Sarah completed her probation, meaning they had been enrolled in school for just about 2 1/2 years in Minnesota. Markis would have attended Discovery Middle School and the younger children would have gone to Woodland Elementary School. This is a good school district.

One would expect that if these kids were as disadvantaged as the mothers claim, the kids would have qualified for special services and had IEPs or 405 plans.

I'm waiting to see if any chatter comes out on the web or through the news about these kids when they actually did attend school.

https://www.greatschools.org/minnesota/alexandria/496-Woodland-Elementary-School/

I agree. I was wondering about the responsibility and capability of homeschooling all of the children and if they had individualized education plans. There would need to be some accountability and differentiated learning. That wouldn't have been an easy task to accomplish if that were the case.


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[enelram]

View attachment 132414

Some of you are so good at this kind of thing. Now that we know or think they would have been traveling N before entering, what changes? Is it possible to enter the area at a higher rate of speed? Do we see tracks up top or make more sense of the crash site with a different angle of entry off the road?

That graphic from this article assumes Hart's were traveling South. http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/hart_children_immediately_pull.html

The photo here says car found Mon. Morning. Everything I've seen says car was reported at 3:45 pm Monday.
Has this changed? I know there was a LONG delay in CH
P showing up at scene.

 

[Amonet]

Some of you are so good at this kind of thing. Now that we know or think they would have been traveling N before entering, what changes? Is it possible to enter the area at a higher rate of speed? Do we see tracks up top or make more sense of the crash site with a different angle of entry off the road?

That graphic from this article assumes Hart's were traveling South. http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/hart_children_immediately_pull.html

I don't know if the physics supports it, but if they turn onto the turnout at the right side of the picture and drive in a diagonal line from the right side, just on the gravel side of the grass to where the two men are landing, I think the car might hit the bit of cliff that juts out (which pushes the car into the spin so that the car lands on its top) and land approximately where it did land, side on to the cliff rather than at a 90 degree angle to the cliff face? Maybe?

It's a softer diagonal that's now possible to get the car from the road to its resting position instead of the 90 degree turn from the barrier on the southbound carriageway.

ETA No, unless the image is deceptive I don't think they could have gone in where I just said as the car shouldn't have landed in that position if it had...so I think it might have gone in more where the two guys on our right are standing, not the guys on the left as I said above, but still on that diagonal. I think that's what I would pick, because the car's still going to have some forward momentum and that cliff does jut out so we need, I think, for the car to avoid the juts near the top as much as possible in order to maintain the forward momentum. JMO, I have no idea, sorry.

 

[everybodhi]

He also asked for cured meats.

This seems odd to me. I’ve never heard a child use the term “cured meats”.
Maybe it’s regional but I haven’t heard that term since my grandpa died.

 

[keeleydoll]

Bringing my post forward from thread 1 for a visual of the interior of the vehicle (GMC Yukon is the same as a Chevy Tahoe)

There is practically no storage space if all of the seats are used. My family is myself, my husband and our kids 17, 14, 12, 6 and 3. We travel locally in the Tahoe with one seat in the second row down (7 seats) if we are on vacation we take two vehicles or if it’s a short trip put a cargo shell on top.

First pic back end space (including hats and jackets, etc. just from winter weather and trash bags because they’re always handy)

Our 6’2” son can fit in the 2nd row where the waters are and ~5’ teen/preteen daughters in the rear row next to the booster seat. We cannot fit our dogs in with the kids at all but we have large labs.

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[Amonet]

I was thinking about the crash dynamics the other night. If the three children who were found were all seated on the middle seat, then they could easily have fallen through the open door as they didn't have seatbelts on.

The rear seat seems a lot harder to find a good exit during the actual crash. The windows don't look large enough for three bodies to get thrust out of them. It might be possible for one smaller child on the rear seat to go through the back window, but there would be limbs all over the place and I think that would impede three of them going out the windows.

I was thinking that anyone who survived the initial impact might crawl out of the car into the surf and expire in the waves and wash up on the rocks. I suppose with strong rip tides they might also end up washed out to sea?

And I could be totally wrong about the crash dynamics. It's not something I've ever really considered before other than the person in the middle of the rear seat getting thrust through the windshield in a forward-facing collision, especially if that's a small child.

 

[everybodhi]

I just feel like anyone with any sense at all would restrain themselves from delivering news like that merely feet from a sheer cliff into the ocean.

I think victims of abusive partners often don’t imagine or believe their abusers will kill them.
Of course, we could also say, anyone with sense wouldn’t stay in an abusive relationship but that’s not how it works.
They make excuses and cover for their abuser, trying to convince friends and family it’s ok.
Without victims covering for their abusers, a lot more of them would be in jail and court ordered treatment.

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

I find it interesting to say the least that Devante was begging for food for a week and the last day the DeKalb neighbors saw him was on THursday at 1130 pm and he he was claiming parents weren't feeding them and asked if Mr DeKalb had called CPS.....according to the DeKalb live interview....then by Friday night they were packing up and leaving........then this............not to mention past abuse and lies they told people......very suspicious. But accident or intentional it's very very tragic...praying they find the other 3 kids and dogs alive

 

[claudianunes]

My take on JH not looking like most of the many (many!) pix of her and the family that have been found online:
If the public photo trail of her family ended around 2016, perhaps because things were already spiraling out of control in her mind, then her appearance could have changed dramatically over the course of several months of increasing stress. That may be part of the reason why there aren’t many pictures to be found after 2016. JH was obviously very much interested in showing the world her ‘tribe’, especially with her beaming in the poses. I am struck by how many of these photos have been found. IMHO most of us would not want that many pictures of our family out there for public consumption, but JH seemed intent on doing that for reasons we can only guess at. If her appearance had been changing, like gaining weight for instance, she may have been self-conscious of that & not want that documented by photo evidence that could be easily seen. Just surmising here.

Also wanted to say that the report that JH arrived home ‘from work’ just shortly before SH, and then CPS knocked at their door soon after, came from the neighbor, Mrs. D. She may not have been accurate about where JH had been prior to arriving home. Like many things in this tragically bizarre, and bizarrely tragic case, this is mostly conjecture.

Thank you for elaborating. That might be the case. What surprised me is the fact that, at least to me, her facial features look super different. She does resemble the other pictures but I would never be able to identify her if I saw her.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Best case scenario imo is that they hid those kids somewhere with people they knew off grid or something, and the car crash happened afterwards. Is that possible, based on what is known of their movements?





I think that's totally possible. I think it's possible Sarah might have been emotionally abused by Jennifer as well, and had had enough. I hesitate to put Sarah in the same category as Jennifer even though she's the one that was punished for abuse. I think she was made to take the fall for Jennifer, by Jennifer.

ETA I'm not surprised Jennifer looks nothing like the media-friendly photos that are being put in the news.

I just feel like she may as well have just walked over and thrown herself off the cliff if she was going to suddenly have absolute determination to end the relationship right then and there.

If you live with an abusive partner, you know it's not wise to argue with them when there are weapons nearby. And a 70 foot drop off into the ocean is definitely a weapon in a scenario like that.