Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[deugirtni]

The way I understand it the jacket sleeves were pulled down , probably covering the wrists.

I have no problem anyone taking exception to my possible theory .... but mine are at least better than some of the convoluted ideas presented lately .... sheesh ... last few days it is like some folks are now blaming a real estate listing as being the culprit. best wishes

If they were targeted, which LE says that they were, then it only makes sense that interior photos and floorplans would be a real bonus to any perps who didn't know the layout, etc., don't you think? I don't think anyone is saying the listing is the culprit.

 

[human]

My high end jackets which are high end for me—-$200 which would be nothing for people who spend $52,000 on a jacket —- had strings that you could pull tighter with a barrel tightner. Or they had a tab with velcro. Never tight elastic.

I feel my jackets were made for comfort as well as for keeping warm.

 

[MistyWaters]

.

Not sure what price has to do with it .... my jackets are high-end ..... the idea is to have tight wrist bands so sleeve fits in gloves .... keeps out cold wind etc ..... cheaper jackets have the typical loose sleeve openings.

ps: my jackets really do cut into the wrist , it is like having a narrow elastic band on

I’m not familiar with high-end elastic wrist band jackets either. Other than maybe you’re referring to ski jackets which sometimes have an elasticized seperate inner cuff to prevent snow from finding its way up the sleeve while enjoying outdoor activities? If so, I just can’t imagine both of the 70ish Shermans would’ve made a practise of wearing snuggly fitting ski jackets with tightly bound cuffs as if to suggest they spent their off time on the slopes.

About your jackets, I think you should’ve asked for a refund. Elastic that’s so tight as to cut into your wrist can’t be a good thing because it’ll hamper circulation in your hands, especially in cold weather.

 

[Sanz]

.

Not sure what price has to do with it .... my jackets are high-end ..... the idea is to have tight wrist bands so sleeve fits in gloves .... keeps out cold wind etc ..... cheaper jackets have the typical loose sleeve openings.

ps: my jackets really do cut into the wrist , it is like having a narrow elastic band on

Is there a possibility you could share photos of your wrists after wearing your jacket? I’d like to see the markings. Thank you in advance.

The photos showed markings made by some type of rope or plastic tie that had encircled both Barry and Honey’s wrists and damaged the skin. The deduction Chiasson and the private detectives made was that their wrists had been bound prior to death.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

 

[deugirtni]

My high end jackets which are high end for me—-$200 which would be nothing for people who spend $52,000 on a jacket —- had strings that you could pull tighter with a barrel tightner. Or they had a tab with velcro. Never tight elastic.

I feel my jackets were made for comfort as well as for keeping warm.

Yes, I agree... I doubt if any 'quality' jackets/coats would be made with super tight elastic such as that. Plus, the original ME and coroner would have presumably not only had photos, but also would have been the ones to remove the clothing as well, and I'm confident that they would have checked for the possibility the abrasions could have been a result of their clothing. jmo.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I had the distinct feeling the Detective Susan Gomes lips were moving during the press conference as she was reading from a script....the only problem: she’s a terrible liar. It’s written all over her face.... that she’s not believing a word she’s saying. Quite comical!!!!

I would be very interested being able to notice some sort of falseness! Unfortunately, she isn't known to me and I don't know, at what video I have to look for comparison.

 

[SeesSeas]

. . .
Plus, the original ME and coroner would have presumably not only had photos, but also would have been the ones to remove the clothing as well, and I'm confident that they would have checked for the possibility the abrasions could have been a result of their clothing. jmo.

Yes... clothing is not removed until ME follows forensic procedure:
How Autopsies Work
When the body is received in a body bag, the seals of the bag are broken and the body is photographed inside the bag. In a forensic autopsy, it is important at this stage for the medical examiner to note the clothing of the deceased and the position of the clothing. This is because once the clothing is removed for the examination, any evidence pertaining to the position of the clothing cannot be documented.
[...]
Once the evidence is all collected, the body is removed from the bag or sheet and undressed, and the wounds are examined. This is done before the body is cleaned up.

 

[MistyWaters]

On the ongoing topic of double homicide versus murder/suicide, I think it’s important to remember the final results of the death investigation are not determined by any one police force, police chief nor mayor of a city.

Death determinations are the responsibility of the Coroner’s Office that is under Provincial jurisdiction.

Had the autopsies not indicated a double homicide occured, if the evidence at the home did not support homicides, if there was any doubt whatsoever, the Coroner’s Office had the option of ruling either or both of the deaths Undetermined.

A simple “we’re just not sure” also eliminates any public allegations of lying, corruption, collusion or incompetence.

Obviously there was no witnesses present to observe a murder/suicide occurring. So at best the debate here stems from “maybe, maybe not” that’s what happened? Therefore given any probability of “maybe murder/suicide” I’m interested in why the deaths weren’t instead ruled “undetermined”, if there was not clear evidence of a double homicide.

*****

BBM

“.......Of the 16,000 deaths a year investigated by coroners in Ontario, on average, roughly 420 receive the “undetermined” label, according to figures from the coroner’s office.

An “undetermined” manner of death means the coroner, taking into consideration a pathologist’s autopsy findings and expert opinion on cause of death, could not conclude whether it was natural, an accident, a suicide or homicide.......

.....Families are often unhappy with the “undetermined” conclusion, Huyer (Chief Coroner for Ontario) said. “But for me, that is the truth. And if we don’t know, we don’t know, and we should say that we don’t know.”
Ontario coroner to review undetected homicides — all the way back to Tammy Homolka | The Star

 

[ldlager]

Is there a possibility you could share photos of your wrists after wearing your jacket? I’d like to see the markings. Thank you in advance.

The photos showed markings made by some type of rope or plastic tie that had encircled both Barry and Honey’s wrists and damaged the skin. The deduction Chiasson and the private detectives made was that their wrists had been bound prior to death.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

RBBM- Just as a reminder, evidently, the original coroner, Dr. Pickup, despite seeing this evidence and removing the skin on the wrists for further analysis, did not come to the conclusion at the time of the first autopsy, that this was a double murder. Seemingly, minds were changed during/after the second autopsy, when it was determined that the belts were likely not the cause of the strangulation. Plus whatever other items were discovered or discussed.

 

[MistyWaters]

RBBM- Just as a reminder, evidently, the original coroner, Dr. Pickup, despite seeing this evidence and removing the skin on the wrists for further analysis, did not come to the conclusion at the time of the first autopsy, that this was a double murder. Seemingly, minds were changed during/after the second autopsy, when it was determined that the belts were likely not the cause of the strangulation. Plus whatever other items were discovered or discussed.

How do we know this or has it become an urban myth? Toxocology results often take weeks if not months to be completed. Highly possible the formal homicide ruling was made only after all the test results were known.

ETA - According to this, it was not the PI team who “changed the police theory” it was the results of the first autopsy and “other pieces of information learned that day last December” (possibly investigative information?)

“......The skin was missing from around Sherman’s wrists, surgically removed by another pathologist several days before in the first examination, the official autopsy requested by the police. The same had been done to Honey Sherman’s wrists.

Why? Chiasson wondered. The answer, provided to Chiasson by the first pathologist, and other pieces of information learned that day last December eventually changed the police theory on the Sherman deaths from murder-suicide to double homicide....”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

 

[deugirtni]

RBBM- Just as a reminder, evidently, the original coroner, Dr. Pickup, despite seeing this evidence and removing the skin on the wrists for further analysis, did not come to the conclusion at the time of the first autopsy, that this was a double murder. Seemingly, minds were changed during/after the second autopsy, when it was determined that the belts were likely not the cause of the strangulation. Plus whatever other items were discovered or discussed.

It's possible that police may have been leaning one way (m/s), and the coroner saying something like, 'well it's *possible*'... and then when second autopsy performed, and the two pathologists had a chance to talk.. perhaps adding in other factors, such as perhaps that the belts didn't exactly fit the markings of what actually strangled the couple, and possibly that there was no material found which would have *caused* the wrist and perhaps neck injuries, (and whatever else we *don't* know about), a more decided outcome was determined?

 

[deugirtni]

How do we know this or has it become an urban myth? Toxocology results often take weeks if not months to be completed. Highly possible the formal homicide ruling was made only after all the test results were known.

ETA - According to this, it was not the PI team who “changed the police theory” it was the results of the first autopsy and “other pieces of information learned that day last December” (possibly investigative information?)

“......The skin was missing from around Sherman’s wrists, surgically removed by another pathologist several days before in the first examination, the official autopsy requested by the police. The same had been done to Honey Sherman’s wrists.

Why? Chiasson wondered. The answer, provided to Chiasson by the first pathologist, and other pieces of information learned that day last December eventually changed the police theory on the Sherman deaths from murder-suicide to double homicide....”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

We have to admit that the timing of the press conference stating the COD as being m/m was awfully coincidental to the timing of what we've been told police and ME#2 finally communicated? jmo

 

[MistyWaters]

We have to admit that the timing of the press conference stating the COD as being m/m was awfully coincidental to the timing of what we've been told police and ME#2 finally communicated? jmo

It’s the Coroner’s Office who is responsible for officially determining the manner of death, not TPS nor the PI’s team. So I’m not following why it matters when the police and ME#2 finally communicated.

 

[MistyWaters]

It's possible that police may have been leaning one way (m/s), and the coroner saying something like, 'well it's *possible*'... and then when second autopsy performed, and the two pathologists had a chance to talk.. perhaps adding in other factors, such as perhaps that the belts didn't exactly fit the markings of what actually strangled the couple, and possibly that there was no material found which would have *caused* the wrist and perhaps neck injuries, (and whatever else we *don't* know about), a more decided outcome was determined?

In Ontario, are forensic pathologists licensed by the same professional authority? I’d assume they are, and if so it’s quite typical for professional peers to leverage their experience amongst each other, regardless of who’s their employer.

If that indeed occured, sure, their collective consensus might influence the Coroner’s report. What I’m strongly doubting is the PI team alone managed to alter the opinion into a double homicide. No where in the media was that even suggested that I can find and don’t you think if it were the truth, that’d be quite a scandalous allegation?

 

[deugirtni]

It’s the Coroner’s Office who is responsible for officially determining the manner of death, not TPS nor the PI’s team. So I’m not following why it matters when the police and ME#2 finally communicated.

Although it is *officially* the coroner who is responsible for officially determining the cause and manner of death, I believe it is a culmination of information from various sources that helps in making that determination.
"Information may be obtained from several sources including, but not limited to family, co-workers, neighbours, doctors, hospital records, police and other emergency service workers. Contact with family is vital as they often have important information that can aid the investigation.
"How are police involved?
Police are usually among the first responders at a death scene. Coroners may request police assistance with investigations."
Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services

 

[deugirtni]

In Ontario, are forensic pathologists licensed by the same professional authority? I’d assume they are, and if so it’s quite typical for professional peers to leverage their experience amongst each other, regardless of who’s their employer.

If that indeed occured, sure, their collective consensus might influence the Coroner’s report. What I’m strongly doubting is the PI team alone managed to alter the opinion into a double homicide. No where in the media was that even suggested that I can find and don’t you think if it were the truth, that’d be quite a scandalous allegation?

What are coroners?
Coroners are medical doctors with specialized death investigation training, who have been appointed to investigate sudden deaths as mandated by the Coroners Act.

What are pathologists and forensic pathologists?
Pathologists are medical doctors who are experts in disease and injury. Forensic pathologists have further training and are experts in disease and injury that result in sudden death. Pathologists and forensic pathologists are the medical doctors who perform autopsies, when required. Forensic pathologists may also be appointed as coroners to investigate cases of suspicious death.

Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services

I didn't say anything about the PI team alone managing to alter the opinion into a double homicide. I suggested that after talking and listening to the results of the very experienced pathologist who performed the second autopsy, it seems coincidental that shortly thereafter, LE finally announced officially that it was a targeted double homicide.

"Police had attended the first autopsy on the Shermans, which was carried out Dec. 16 by a provincial pathologist. A second autopsy, conducted by a retired senior pathologist hired by the family, was done Dec. 20, the day before the funeral and the same day as the first series of judicial authorizations were granted by a judge. The Toronto Star has previously reported that it was the conclusion of the second pathologist, veteran Dr. David Chiasson, that helped police understand that both Shermans had been murdered.

Sources have told the Toronto Star that police did not talk to Chiasson until later in January after the Toronto Star reported Chiasson's conclusion that it was a double murder — not murder-suicide."
Sherman investigation initially focused only on Barry’s wife Honey as a murder victim

 

[ldlager]

How do we know this or has it become an urban myth? Toxocology results often take weeks if not months to be completed. Highly possible the formal homicide ruling was made only after all the test results were known.

ETA - According to this, it was not the PI team who “changed the police theory” it was the results of the first autopsy and “other pieces of information learned that day last December” (possibly investigative information?)

“......The skin was missing from around Sherman’s wrists, surgically removed by another pathologist several days before in the first examination, the official autopsy requested by the police. The same had been done to Honey Sherman’s wrists.

Why? Chiasson wondered. The answer, provided to Chiasson by the first pathologist, and other pieces of information learned that day last December eventually changed the police theory on the Sherman deaths from murder-suicide to double homicide....”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

I am not sure what part of my message you are referring to as an "urban myth". If it was that the first Pathologist hadn't ruled it a m/m, the article says quite specifically (RBBM) "...Sources say Pickup saw indications that it might be a case of double murder. However, Pickup did not make that ruling. Neither Pickup or his boss, chief forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Pollanen, would discuss the case with the Star, citing provincial privacy rules..."

I also note the following from the same article: (RBBM) "...The following Monday, the Toronto police homicide squad interviewed Dr. Chiasson. That Friday, Jan. 26, at a well-attended press conference at police headquarters, Homicide Det. Sgt. Susan Gomes announced that after closely investigating three theories of the death, police had ruled it a double homicide..." This seems to completely contradict what has been written on this site, that "...It’s the Coroner’s Office who is responsible for officially determining the manner of death...".

So I am left to wonder just who in fact ACTUALLY determined the cause of death in this case? Coroner #1? Coroner #2? The police? The family? The PI's? Mr Greenspan?

 

[hudunit]

None of the evidence has been officially confirmed.Where was the statement that the belts were not the cause of death?

 

[dotr]

Jan 19 2018
rbbm.
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star
"Here’s the new information: There are markings on the Shermans’ wrists, an indication that at some point their hands were tied together, though no rope or other ties were found near the bodies. Toxicology tests on their bodies reveal no sign of drugs that would have contributed to their deaths. Men’s leather belts found around their necks were the cause of the “ligature compression” that killed them. A top forensic pathologist who did a second autopsy determined this was a double homicide, barring any new information that surfaces."

 

[nuff]

In Ontario, are forensic pathologists licensed by the same professional authority? I’d assume they are, and if so it’s quite typical for professional peers to leverage their experience amongst each other, regardless of who’s their employer.

If that indeed occured, sure, their collective consensus might influence the Coroner’s report. What I’m strongly doubting is the PI team alone managed to alter the opinion into a double homicide. No where in the media was that even suggested that I can find and don’t you think if it were the truth, that’d be quite a scandalous allegation?

What is being ignored in a lot of the discussion is that the second pathologist is a highly reputable professional and academic, and former chief forensic pathologist for the Province. Even though he was hired as part of the family's team, I'm sure his expert opinion would carry weight with his colleagues. I'm also equally sure that that opinion could not be "bought."