Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #35

[tmar]

Sorry to go back to this morbid subject, but has it been determined that the two tanks the girls were found in, had only an 8” diameter man hole?

I am wondering, if this info is incorrect: the openings being much larger.
If only 8 inches, CW will forever be remembered for this horrid disposal of his kids: worldwide.
In Court, he will be an outcast.
He will be heckled for the remainder of his existence.

 

[gitana1]

Actually, it has a lot to do with this case - and your question.
These documents are assumed to be public. In order to hold them back, you have to meet the “substantial injury to the public” standard - except that isn’t defined anywhere, so they had to interpret it - and they decided it meant something really unusual that the legislature couldn’t have anticipated (because they specifically made autopsy reports public, with no exceptions)

So now you have a statute and interpretation of the language - add in a whole bunch of varying situations and complications and a variety of judges (some more inclined than others to protect the public’s right to know) - and you get this situation.

The bottom line is that they are public documents unless you can meet the standard. The DA may not want to release them for any number of reasons, maybe just because it makes things more complicated, but it doesn’t matter - they are public unless they successfully argue they should be sealed.

I’ve dealt with this myself. We had a really incendiary situation happen and we had video of it. It made the news immediately and was all over the place - all over the country - politicians chiming in. I kept getting FOI requests for the video - which technically was a public record and had to be disclosed. It didn’t meet any of the very narrow exceptions in the statute - but it was clear that if it was released to the media, all hell would break loose. The video showed the exact opposite of what was claimed to have happened. The DA called and explained the situation to me and I said I would see what I could do. I called the Open government entity (they write the opinions) and they agreed with me that it shouldn’t be released - even though technically, it didn’t meet any of the criteria. It was a super unusual situation that would create an enormous problem. Clearly, something the legislature could not have anticipated.

Sorry. I disagree. The article you linked to was all about how the proposed legislation to seal autopsy reports of children and the request to seal autopsy reports dealing with police shootings would enable government cover ups when it comes to homicides involving or in some way connected to government officials.

The article specifically states that in those situations sealing records could actually cause substantial injury to the public interest while the standard for not allowing release is preventing such substantial injury.

Yes, I think the legislation is definitive enough that it will be an uphill battle to keep the results sealed until trial. As I have stated.

But let's compare. How does a purported "ongoing investigation" of a homicide four months AFTER the defendant has been already charged, represent a possible substantial injury to the public if the report was released, but not wanting to taint witnesses or future jurors, wouldn't?

I don't see much difference. And you still haven't answered how an ongoing investigation is something the legislature couldn't identify prior to drafting the legislation.

 

[MsBetsy]

I dont know,

I have I have been afk, and I don't understand how this relates to anything?

Why is this being discussed in relation to the murders?

I don't know, that's exactly what I have been trying to find out! There were many comments about it, but I haven't been able to figure it out as many details are missing. I'm curious too.

 

[NuttMegg]

The problem is what you think you would do and what you actually do in an event like this might be completely different.
jmo

I guess I've never thought about what I would do after brutally murdering 4 people smaller to much smaller than I am. Who knows, maybe I would have tried to prevent it and called 911 to save a few lives.

 

[Thepoet]

I believe the arrest warrant information is not quoted as to that being the only sentence he said it is a summery of the event leading to her death and imo the confession may have been more detailed. We are unsure what other information could have not been on it.

There are many things that we are unsure of, but not that he is a killer. CW confessed to killing SW and by doing so, killed Nico. We can be sure CW is a killer because he confessed to being a killer. We can be sure CW is a liar because he has been caught in lies and admitted to lying. We can be sure CW obstructed justice because he admitted to obstructing justice by moving the bodies, hiding the bodies, including forcing the bodies of his toddler daughters through a small hole and into a dark tank filled with viscous oil, and attempting to get rid of evidence! We can be sure CW is an adulterer because he has admitted to being an adulterer! We can be sure that CW has little, if any, remorse or guilt, because he demonstrated his true feelings to the Thayers, the press, and the public while knowing his family was dead and hidden. There really is so much we can be sure of, because of what CW has told us and shown us. And I'm sure, IMO, there is more to come!

 

[Nessa131]

I am wondering, if this info is incorrect: the openings being much larger.
If only 8 inches, CW will forever be remembered for this horrid disposal of his kids: worldwide.
In Court, he will be an outcast.
He will be heckled for the remainder of his existence.

Even if it was bigger than the 8 inches- i think he will still be remembered forever worldwide. I have friends in Australia that are talking about this case! JMO

 

[Lady Justice21]

IMO It wouldn't be necessary to include it in the affidavit. They only need enough of a summary to show probable cause in an affidavit. Does that mean his larger statement included any resuscitation efforts, no clue.

IMO those things not being included, don't translate to anything nefarious on behalf of LEO (Ms Betsy, you didn't imply this, but I've seen others imply it, so im adding it here). Statements like that just aren't required to show probable cause.

That's true but something as significant as him trying to save his children would certainly not be left out. It is a summary of the most important details of his description. If he had said he performed CPR, and checked her pulse or gave her rescue breaths before he became enraged and strangled his wife, it would be included in the affidavit. Imo

 

[NuttMegg]

BBM His fist, a lamp, a heavy book, an alarm clock, a jar of something. But mainly, his fist.

He was a guy in his prime, (if only physically) muscular, worked out a lot, and she was a tired preggers lady. He could have held her off by her hair while he called 911

 

[NuttMegg]

I believe the arrest warrant information is not quoted as to that being the only sentence he said it is a summery of the event leading to her death and imo the confession may have been more detailed. We are unsure what other information could have not been on it.

Maybe someday we'll see what he said before vs after he talked to his father.

 

[Thepoet]

In order to believe there was more in CW’s confession that LE intentionally omitted in order to manipulate public opinion against him, while charging him with 3 counts of First Degree Murder, of which there is no evidence in CW’s confession, then you have to believe the Prosecution is corrupt.

5 counts of first degree murder.

 

[katydid23]

I believe the arrest warrant information is not quoted as to that being the only sentence he said it is a summery of the event leading to her death and imo the confession may have been more detailed. We are unsure what other information could have not been on it.

However, we do know, he never called 911 for help, never pressed the panic button, never screamed for his neighbors to help, never had a loud enough fight with her to get anyone's attention.

And we do know that strangling an adult takes several precious minutes of time. And it said that she was 'actively strangling' the child. So the child was still potentially able to be revived. So if just those few facts are correct, he didn't place the priority on his child's revival but placed it on revenge against his pregnant wife.

Even if they add in more facts, the few that we do know are pretty damning. The child was still potentially able to be revived, and he did not call for medical help to make that happen. There is no way that he did call for help and it didn't make it into the confession.

And there is no way that he could 'know' the child was beyond help, if his wife was still actively strangling the child. A baby can look deceased and still be able to be revived in cases like this.

 

[tmar]

Having not met her before either, I sense SW had an ambitious approach to life, IMO, based on her commitment to her family, friends, work, and positive approach to life. I'm reminded of a great post by @borndem from the previous thread, with this chilling visualization about what may have been going on in SW's mind that night (bbm):


SW would have fought hard, IMO, but that's if she even got the chance. I'm sure they had their bad days, but sadly, I don't think SW could have ever imagined for one second that her husband would be capable of murder.

And that thought alone might very well have paralyzed her when she realized what was happening, IMO. Jmo

We may become paralysed, whether surprised, or even prepared.
We don't know how SW reacted.
I attended a 'Defence Course' held by the Police.
In the advanced section, we were warned, an attack will be staged, and we need to fight.
Not to worry, the attacker will be well padded.

Knowing this, on the day I waited, I was ready, nothing happened.
On the way to the evening class, not knowing Police were watching, I was attacked (staged), in front of the entrance.
I froze, I just stood there, I was paralysed. I failed.
As I was very disappointed, Police asked, that I bring in the milk, for our coffees.
Another 'staged' attack.
Wow, I responded WELL, and passed.
How does one respond: we don't know?

 

[gitana1]

"........While in the bedroom, via baby monitor located on Shanann's night stand, he observed Bella "sprawled" out on her bed and blue and Shanann actively strangling Celeste. Chris said he went into a rage and ultimately strangled Shanann to death......"
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/19th_Judicial_District/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/001/Warrantless Arrest Affidavit.pdf
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I think CW's actual confession has more details between first sentence and the second sentence in the quotation above. I'd imagine he would be smart enough to say he attended to the babies before killing Shanann. We have no idea what the detail is but we know he didn't call 911 or scream for help.

Anyway, that's how I read his lying confession described in the affidavit.

Yes. And as I've posted before, if he did say he checked their pulses or whatever and tried to resuscitate them before killing his wife, then the heat of passion mitigator is diminished. Because there was a gap between the time he supposedly saw her strangling the kids and the time he strangled her. Heat of passion only works if there is no such gap.

And if he tries to claim that after he determined they were dead and could not be saved (suuure) he flew into a rage and temporarily lost his mind, well that was the quickest cool down and return to sanity I've ever heard of because per his time line it was literally moments from the time all of that happened to the time he casually backed his car into the garage, loaded up their corpses and calmly drove away to dispose of their bodies.

I mean he said initially said he woke up at 5:00 am and had the emotional conversation with her and 27 minutes later he is on video calmly driving away with their bodies.

Even if we go with his second version - that he had this emotional conversation at 4:00 am, that means they had a conversation, they cried, he went downstairs, (which indicates she likely wasn't hysterical or dangerously out of control at that moment), he looked at then baby monitors, saw her strangling the kids, went upstairs, possibly tried to get her off CeCe, struggled with her, checked for signs of life in both kids, worked to resuscitate both kids, stopped, flew into a rage, strangled his wife, calmed down, went outside, backed his truck into the garage, moved and loaded up the bodies in the back seat of his cab, stripped beds of bedding, took some bedding and tried to throw it away for some reason in the trash, got into his truck and calmly drove away, all in less than an hour and a half.

That's some "temporary" insanity.

 

[NuttMegg]

We may become paralysed, whether surprised, or even prepared.
We don't know how SW reacted.
I attended a 'Defence Course' held by the Police.
In the advanced section, we were warned, an attack will be staged, and we need to fight.
Not to worry, the attacker will be well padded.

Knowing this, on the day I waited, I was ready, nothing happened.
On the way to the evening class, not knowing Police were watching, I was attacked (staged), in front of the entrance.
I froze, I just stood there, I was paralysed. I failed.
As I was very disappointed, Police asked, that I bring in the milk, for our coffees.
Another 'staged' attack.
Wow, I responded WELL, and passed.
How does one respond: we don't know?

True, we don't know for sure, I know in my case I start shaking when something important happens, boat adrift, my dog suddenly loose in traffic by accident. And it makes me really mad at myself for this betrayal by my own nervous system. Maybe I would shake all to pieces if I found my "much smaller" spouse harming our children. Maybe I would have screamed and pushed him. However I, re all that I have done in this long life, don't even need to doubt myself, I would never have thrown our babies in crude oil or buried my husband in a shallow grave for foxes and turkey vultures to feed on. There's only so much self-doubt one needs to have.

 

[katydid23]

"........While in the bedroom, via baby monitor located on Shanann's night stand, he observed Bella "sprawled" out on her bed and blue and Shanann actively strangling Celeste. Chris said he went into a rage and ultimately strangled Shanann to death......"
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/19th_Judicial_District/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/001/Warrantless Arrest Affidavit.pdf
-----------------------------------------
I think CW's actual confession has more details between first sentence and the second sentence in the quotation above. I'd imagine he would be smart enough to say he attended to the babies before killing Shanann. We have no idea what the detail is but we know he didn't call 911 or scream for help.

Anyway, that's how I read his lying confession described in the affidavit.

Well, the problem is that he is not a medical professional, and he doesn't have oxygen tanks, or a defibrillator, or any experience with unresponsive victims. he had no credible way to make the decision that his unconscious child was beyond help.

 

[tmar]

Yeah. I guess before the Twitter page went private, someone had mentioned that he was posting about the Steelers or something that night.

I think it was prior to SW arriving, during the evening.

 

[gitana1]

I am wondering if CW will try to explain his actions, by stating after witnessing SW in the process of murdering her children, he went into a 'trance like state': he murdered SW, disposed of the bodies, gave interviews, still affected by this.
He was not himself.
With time, reflection, he cannot believe the above.
Now so upset in Prison!!!
Is he perhaps going to use, something similar to Mollie Tibbetts' accuser stating a 'black out'?
All above, my own thoughts, after a restless night, thinking about 'tank openings'.

I bet he's going to try something like that. That would be a disassociative fugue state and from what I've been told people in such states can't remember their names, addresses and history.

He knew where he worked and talked calmly with NUA and LE the next day and worked hard to conceal everything.

It doesn't fit.

 

[MsBetsy]

I don't think CW told them about the affair. I think LE told him they knew about it, that the co-worker was cooperating and CW had no choice but to admit it. I don't think he told the truth about anything (like where to find the bodies) until they presented him with undeniable facts.

From the affidavit:
"A two day investigation revealed Chris was actively involved in an affair with a co-worker which he denied in previous interviews"

MOO

Did he originally tell LE where the bodies were or did they find out first and confront him with it? I missed that part. Did they find the sheet first and then question him about it before they looked in the tanks?

 

[human]

BBM His fist, a lamp, a heavy book, an alarm clock, a jar of something. But mainly, his fist.

I was referring to what the poster, a woman would use.

 

[MollyDDD]

That's my question. Or that there was no other way to get them in or no way to make the hole larger?

I guess we must wait.

Well these tanks have standard sized man holes and from what I found, they were 18” to 21” diameter. I’m not sure where the 8” diameter came from.