SOLVED NY - Tala Farea, 16, Rotana Farea, 22, Hudson River, 24 Oct 2018- COD released: suicide/drowning

[bears10]

I don't think we should assume that the credit card Rotana used discussed by authorities is issued by an American bank. It is entirely possible/ plausible that the card was from a financial institution outside the U.S., from Saudi Arabia or the EU.

If the card was a high limit (which seems quite likely), it's possible it was opened by the father on behalf of Rotana, who would not have qualified for a high limit card on her own. Since the father was mostly outside the U.S., he may not have been aware of the rapidly escalating charges and hitting the limit. (Perhaps the father has an accountant who takes care of his financial matters for his family in the U.S.?)

Simply search for "Saudi Arabian credit cards" or Saudi Arabian credit cards with visa logo", Saudi Arabian credit cards to use in the U.S., or similar.

Of course, it would be very interesting to also know what the details are of the mother's finances since 2015-- how she had access to cash and credit, bank accounts, whether or not she paid the ordinary bills for the 3 kids and herself, etc.

Would US authorities have access to financial information/transactions on a saudi credit card?

 

[K_Z]

Same here -- Autopsy reports usually describe how the body was found when the body is received, like "The body was found clothed in a red shirt, blue jeans, a brown leather belt, and Adidas running shoes, white socks. A watch was found on the left wrist and a gold stud earring in the left ear," etc. Certainly the A/R will describe the tape on each body, etc., and photos would also be taken. We certainly won't see photos, but a description would speak to how they were actually found. IF the A/R is released to the public and IF an autopsy is even permitted on these women, we should learn more.

Another point about autopsies in this case is the Muslim laws regarding delay of funeral and desecration of the body. This article describes the problems with autopsies WRT religious laws:

Religions and the Autopsy
[...]
Although cultural or religious beliefs are often cited as a reason for opposition to autopsy, most religions and cultures find autopsies acceptable either based on the individual's beliefs or special circumstances. [3] Certain religions outright object (eg, Islam and Judaism) in that bodily intrusion violates beliefs about the sanctity of keeping the human body complete, although religious doctrine does not in of itself strictly forbid autopsies. Instead, it is a matter of interpretation of the doctrines which have changed over time.

Religions and the Autopsy: Overview, Islam, Judaism

These women's bodies were found under extremely suspicious circumstances. They have to be autopsied by law, and islamic beliefs have an "exception" for these kind of circumstances. (Muslims also permit organ donation after death, by the way-- which many aren't aware of.) Depending on burial plans, the bodies could have been held in refrigeration until burial-- not all autopsies require embalming.

I have not read that anyone has claimed their bodies, or that they have had burial. Has anyone else read this?

Typically, islamic beliefs prefer those deceased to be buried as soon as possible, without transporting to the homeland if they died away from home. Islamic burial, after the washing and shrouding rituals, in a muslim cemetery would be acceptable. (Which was a huge issue for KSA to handle in 2015 when thousands died at the Hajj-- many foreigners, and many not wearing any identification.)

I'm sure there are a number of mosques in NYC that would offer to bury them, and host the required funeral rituals and ceremony.

 

[OneEye]

Overview article - not new news:
Police Say Saudi Sisters Found Duct Taped in the Hudson River Would "Rather Commit Suicide than Return to Saudi Arabia"

 

[K_Z]

Would US authorities have access to financial information/transactions on a saudi credit card?

I don't know how investigators do all the things they do, but clearly U.S. authorities know a lot about the cc charges. The mother or father could have cooperated early on and gave investigators access to the transaction activity if the card was held outside the U.S. I'm assuming at this point that the mother and father have been cooperative with authorities.

I just don't see how an unemployed some-time college student on a foreign passport/ visa could have, on her own, obtained high dollar credit cards to allow them to stay in high end hotels, shop, order in food, etc. I'm strongly thinking that the father (as the breadwinner and family head) arranged for that level of credit (on one or more cards).

As a guess, I'd guess that in the few weeks they were in NYC the charges could run to $15,000+. Someone mentioned $400/ night hotel-- 30 nights alone would be $12,000.

I'm even wondering if the card/s (some articles say plural) belonged to the mother, with Rotana having charging privileges.

 

[OneEye]

These women's bodies were found under extremely suspicious circumstances. They have to be autopsied by law, and islamic beliefs have an "exception" for these kind of circumstances. (Muslims also permit organ donation after death, by the way-- which many aren't aware of.) Depending on burial plans, the bodies could have been held in refrigeration until burial-- not all autopsies require embalming.

I have not read that anyone has claimed their bodies, or that they have had burial. Has anyone else read this?

Typically, islamic beliefs prefer those deceased to be buried as soon as possible, without transporting to the homeland if they died away from home. Islamic burial, after the washing and shrouding rituals, in a muslim cemetery would be acceptable. (Which was a huge issue for KSA to handle in 2015 when thousands died at the Hajj-- many foreigners, and many not wearing any identification.)

I'm sure there are a number of mosques in NYC that would offer to bury them, and host the required funeral rituals and ceremony.

The last I had read was a few days ago I believe in the NYP that the bodies had not been claimed. That was around the time that the father was supposedly en route to NYC. I had assumed that he would claim the bodies but I just did another search and could not find an article about him claiming the bodies. Is it possible that the bodies are undergoing further testing and are being held by the ME in NYC?

 

[OneEye]

Do you think they were doing their morning prayer or some kind of pre death prayer ritual?

 

[OneEye]

Overview article - not new news:
Police Say Saudi Sisters Found Duct Taped in the Hudson River Would "Rather Commit Suicide than Return to Saudi Arabia"

Sorry, this article did confirm the asylum claim which I hadn't seen confimed yet by NYPD.

 

[K_Z]

The last I had read was a few days ago I believe in the NYP that the bodies had not been claimed. That was around the time that the father was supposedly en route to NYC. I had assumed that he would claim the bodies but I just did another search and could not find an article about him claiming the bodies. Is it possible that the bodies are undergoing further testing and are being held by the ME in NYC?

It's been over a week since they were identified. I'm sure there are lots of photographs, autopsy report, blood and tissue samples, retained, etc. At this point, knowing the family is muslim, I can't imagine why the bodies would not be released for burial.

Almost every single media report indicates authorities are going to rule this a double suicide, and there is no evidence they are pursuing any murder suspects. Authorities are signalling that they are just waiting for the final autopsy tests (tox, etc) and indicating pretty strongly they will declare these both suicides.

Muslims do not approve of cremation, so I can't see why the bodies would not be released to the family.

It seems to me that authorities are going to make their determination about MOD fairly quickly, and close the cases pretty soon. They don't indicate they are leaning toward either homicide, or undetermined. That leaves accident (nope), or suicide.

 

[K_Z]

Do you think they were doing their morning prayer or some kind of pre death prayer ritual?

I'm not aware of any pre-death specific rituals, but the timing of the witness report coincides with the sunrise prayer.

The sighting that they were 30 feet apart (!) is very strange, IMO. Muslims typically pray very close together for ordinary prayers. Thirty feet apart is *pretty far* apart. That is just so odd, IMO.

I wonder if the witness saw which direction they were facing? Were they in typical prostrate prayer position? Were they facing mecca/ qibla? Were they praying on the bare ground? Sitting on a bench or something?

It seems odd that only one person observed this-- I'm surprised more didn't see them. (Was it even Tala and Rotana they saw?)

Is it common to see muslims praying out in the open in parks in NYC?

 

[K_Z]

The man said that he was exercising in Riverside Park when he saw two people believed to be the sisters sitting about 30ft (9m) apart near the waterfront.

"They were sitting with their hands in their heads," Chief Shea said. "Their heads lowered and they were making noises loudly that he described as praying."

No foul play in Saudi sisters' US deaths

This posture does not sound like the typical prayer posture. But maybe so, his description isn't really detailed.

These are the typical postures for women's prayers.

How to Offer Salah (For Women)

Learn How to Perform Salah Step by Step For Women

 

[madamx]

Oh yes, the credit card could very well be important. I have done work with setting up financial independence for Newcomers, and a major credit card option that is available to them has a $500 limit, but the bank holds $500 as a deposit. It is unheard of for newcomers to have credit cards with any significant amount of credit.

But, if a suitable benefactor is co-named on the credit card, and is responsible for the payments, then the limit can be higher. Such a person would also have access to the spending, including restaurants and hotels, so if the benefactor wanted to keep tabs on a niece or nephew, this is one way to accomplish it. I'm not saying that this happened in this case, but I agree that one must follow the credit card angle carefully.

Iam with you here Musicaljoke. I also think it's very odd these girls had so much credit to spend 2 months living on credit cards traveling staying at highend hotels and shopping.
How did they get all that credit if nobody had a job? I think there is a lot more to this entertwined story that is not being said.
Also I read they had been evicted? I just get more confused the more this all unravels .


Update: Saudi sisters living in Fairfax found dead, duct taped together in the Hudson River
In July 2016, an unlawful detainer shows that Rotana Farea had been living at Skyline Towers apartments in Falls Church, Va. with Abdulsalam Farea. Abdulsalam is listed as Tala’s middle name. The management group won the case, and was awarded immediate possession of the apartment -- which would typically mean the Farea’s were evicted.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.c...-saudi-sisters-found-in-the-hudson-river/amp/
Lastly, the Washington Post reported that there may have been financial difficulties. Court records indicate the family was evicted from an apartment in Falls Church, Va. for failure to pay the rent, and recently faced a similar fate at their current apartment, but the management company dropped the case.

 

[TTF14]

Yes, and first prayer was at 6:31 that day. Second prayer always coincides with sunrise. So the ambient light levels would have been rather low at the time the witness says he thinks he saw them praying. (How far away was he?)

NYC weather on 24 Oct was partly sunny, upper 40s to low 50s. No rain.

I'm not aware of any pre-death specific rituals, but the timing of the witness report coincides with the sunrise prayer.

The sighting that they were 30 feet apart (!) is very strange, IMO. Muslims typically pray very close together for ordinary prayers. Thirty feet apart is *pretty far* apart. That is just so odd, IMO.

I wonder if the witness saw which direction they were facing? Were they in typical prostrate prayer position? Were they facing mecca/ qibla? Were they praying on the bare ground? Sitting on a bench or something?

It seems odd that only one person observed this-- I'm surprised more didn't see them. (Was it even Tala and Rotana they saw?)

Is it common to see muslims praying out in the open in parks in NYC?

I've seen muslim women praying at a rest area in front of McDonalds!

I was going to ask you about the 30 feet apart thing. Seemed weird to me, but I know very little about the faith.

 

[dotr]

Regarding the 30 feet apart from each other, maybe the duck tape was rolled out sticky side up and they would each keep rolling on top of it in order to self tape?
Crazy thought but hey- crazy deaths.
imo, speculation.

 

[OneEye]

Some info on dying and death rituals:
http://christicenter.org/2013/03/islamic-rituals-dying-deceased/

 

[bears10]

I don't know how investigators do all the things they do, but clearly U.S. authorities know a lot about the cc charges. The mother or father could have cooperated early on and gave investigators access to the transaction activity if the card was held outside the U.S. I'm assuming at this point that the mother and father have been cooperative with authorities.

I just don't see how an unemployed some-time college student on a foreign passport/ visa could have, on her own, obtained high dollar credit cards to allow them to stay in high end hotels, shop, order in food, etc. I'm strongly thinking that the father (as the breadwinner and family head) arranged for that level of credit (on one or more cards).

As a guess, I'd guess that in the few weeks they were in NYC the charges could run to $15,000+. Someone mentioned $400/ night hotel-- 30 nights alone would be $12,000.

I'm even wondering if the card/s (some articles say plural) belonged to the mother, with Rotana having charging privileges.

I was the one who mentioned $400 night hotel stays. I calculated closer to $20k in just hotel fees, considering the resort fees and taxes. And 2x a day room service not included. I suppose parents could consent to LE reviewing transactions. But if the parents weren’t on the accounts,’I don’t see how they could consent to that. And if the parents were on the account, I’d think that they’d be keeping track of the girls while they were alive, considering the mom seemed so concerned to the neighbor.

 

[bears10]

I'm not aware of any pre-death specific rituals, but the timing of the witness report coincides with the sunrise prayer.

The sighting that they were 30 feet apart (!) is very strange, IMO. Muslims typically pray very close together for ordinary prayers. Thirty feet apart is *pretty far* apart. That is just so odd, IMO.

I wonder if the witness saw which direction they were facing? Were they in typical prostrate prayer position? Were they facing mecca/ qibla? Were they praying on the bare ground? Sitting on a bench or something?

It seems odd that only one person observed this-- I'm surprised more didn't see them. (Was it even Tala and Rotana they saw?)

Is it common to see muslims praying out in the open in parks in NYC?

Only one person came forward and said they noticed it. That doesn’t mean only one person saw it. I’m sure you’re familiar with the city... a lot of things that may seem startling to outsiders are just every day life in Manhattan. Many people are desensitized.

 

[borndem]

They were separated before being brought to the ME’s office then? In my schooling for Forensic Technology, bodies are typically brought in ‘as they are’. I’ve even seen a body in a trash can delivered to the Medical Examiner, just so the ME can get the full picture.

EXAMPLE of the trash can:

View attachment 153824

I know policy and procedure is different in different departments but I think they should have been left together until the autopsies.

Another thing that’s been nagging me is maybe the sisters were ‘ordered’ to do this? Or maybe the mom/brother/whoever thought if they were out of the picture they could stay in the US since it was the sisters’ ‘fault’ they were told to leave?

Following the credit card angle carefully as well...

bbm
Yes, disappointing, isn't it? In some counties/states of the US, and I guess depending on the circumstances of the scene or other things, the M.E. will go to the scene and tell LE what s/he wants done with the body/bodies -- transport as is, or transport as you see fit -- plenty of pictures of the scene help show how the body/bodies was/were found. If the ME can't/doesn't come, the bodies must (I would assume) be brought in situ and much as possible. So let's hope the ME knows all about it or was at the scene -- I can't remember if the ME was there or not.

 

[OneEye]

bbm
Yes, disappointing, isn't it? In some counties/states of the US, and I guess depending on the circumstances of the scene or other things, the M.E. will go to the scene and tell LE what s/he wants done with the body/bodies -- transport as is, or transport as you see fit -- plenty of pictures of the scene help show how the body/bodies was/were found. If the ME can't/doesn't come, the bodies must (I would assume) be brought in situ and much as possible. So let's hope the ME knows all about it or was at the scene -- I can't remember if the ME was there or not.

The one shot posted by radaronline with all the NYPD team on the rocks where the bodies were found had at least one person that I saw with ME badge on and there were at least 2 people with the high tech cameras taking pictures of the body that was in the shot. I couldn't tell if they were the detectives or ME staff.

 

[musicaljoke]

I was the one who mentioned $400 night hotel stays. I calculated closer to $20k in just hotel fees, considering the resort fees and taxes. And 2x a day room service not included. I suppose parents could consent to LE reviewing transactions. But if the parents weren’t on the accounts,’I don’t see how they could consent to that. And if the parents were on the account, I’d think that they’d be keeping track of the girls while they were alive, considering the mom seemed so concerned to the neighbor.

Perhaps the mom wasn't on the account, but rather someone else. Would running up the credit card like that make someone very angry?

Do you, or anyone else, know if LE needs a production order or search warrant to examine financial records of someone who is deceased? Is there a way to find out what search warrants have been granted?

The MSM article you quoted above mentioned that the cc belonged to Rotana. But, I doubt that is the complete story on the credit card.

Police Say Saudi Sisters Found Duct Taped in the Hudson River Would "Rather Commit Suicide than Return to Saudi Arabia"

 

[borndem]

These women's bodies were found under extremely suspicious circumstances. They have to be autopsied by law, and islamic beliefs have an "exception" for these kind of circumstances. (Muslims also permit organ donation after death, by the way-- which many aren't aware of.) Depending on burial plans, the bodies could have been held in refrigeration until burial-- not all autopsies require embalming.

I have not read that anyone has claimed their bodies, or that they have had burial. Has anyone else read this?

Typically, islamic beliefs prefer those deceased to be buried as soon as possible, without transporting to the homeland if they died away from home. Islamic burial, after the washing and shrouding rituals, in a muslim cemetery would be acceptable. (Which was a huge issue for KSA to handle in 2015 when thousands died at the Hajj-- many foreigners, and many not wearing any identification.)

I'm sure there are a number of mosques in NYC that would offer to bury them, and host the required funeral rituals and ceremony.

Good info, @K_Z - thanks.
I hope we will find out how the family decides to handle this -- burial here or KSA. I'm assuming the family will be involved in the death and burial rituals. It wouldn't surprise me, however, that we won't be hearing much if the deaths are termed as suicides.
I'm betting it will be handled here, especially after reading your post -- also I hope we will find out whether the family will indeed go back to KSA or remain here. Do they have a choice? It seems to me they don't. What a tuff situation for the family.