Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #15 *ARREST*

[Winterbells]

If the reported info from the mother is to be believed, the potential suspect has made a big thing of defending why Libby was in his car and why there was some kind of altercation between them within his car. This, for me, suggests that he needs, more than anything, to explain her presence in his car and possibly his dna on her clothes and/or body. Nowhere in the reported story, was there any mention of the park. The story just fizzles out at the end, which is weird. I was left thinking 'yes, right, and?'
I really want to know why the story stops before the end.
Did the journalist ask 'and then what happened?', did the interviewee refuse to comment further? and if so, why?

 

[Newthoughts]

JMO
I agree that this case is turning out to be a tough one for LE to try to get enough evidence for solid charges.

If PR was responsible then he either did an amazing job of cleaning up his vehicle or there are a couple other options which could explain the lack of evidence in his vehicle.

He may have contacted someone he could trust like a close relative or close friend to help him get rid of the body and a different vehicle may have been used to transport her.

Or maybe PR borrowed another vehicle himself. Like if a work friend had a work vehicle that neither actually owned, then maybe PR talked a friend into letting him borrow the work vehicle. That way, neither the friend/relative nor PR have their personal vehicle transporting the body. The work vehicle would have all the evidence in it and nobody would be the wiser.

I hope LE is making good headway behind the scenes and that we are just not aware of how far along they have come evidence wise.

I can't imagine anyone assisting even the closest friend or relative with something like this. If I'd lent even the closest person to me a car and they were later arrested for something like this I'd go straight to the police. Even if I didn't go straight away I defy any human being to be able to watch Libby's parents appeal or read what they wrote and not come forward .

Getting hold of a work or friends vehicle without anyone knowing is possible I suppose.

The only way I could imagine anyone assisting is if they were involved in some way. Making the 4 in the Croda CCTV more interesting.

We don't actually know what LE got from the car. If it's him he did have 5 days to clean the car.

 

[Winterbells]

I've looked back to try and find the relevant post mentioning a location in Paull as a potential area of interest. Is it the car park pictured below?

If so I would like to add that I have been there a few times on an evening with a friend (probably about 5years ago now), when looking for a uhhhh 'quiet spot' for some uhhh "car fun' haha. Anyway, my point is, that it was rarely quiet there. Most often 1 or 2 fishing, sometimes boy racers having little car meets and possibly other 'couples' looking for some time out. I was also told a while later that it was a known 'dogging spot' lol, which would fit perfectly with PRs voyeuristic ways - and very likely a site he knew well.

Interesting that you saw people fishing there.
The spot I've been talking about isn't quite there I don't think, but I'd like to know where to find your spot please?

To find 'my' spot, if you google Town End Road in Paull and then turn left at the end and follow streetview to as close to the river as you can get, you reach a point where you're right on the shore (there's a sign warning about it being unsafe due to erosion etc).

 

[Winterbells]

Even if the potential suspect's car was spotted en route to, say, Paull, or anywhere else that night, it still isn't proof of him doing anything untoward. A passenger may not have been visible and he can make anything up about where he was going, returning from and why.

 

[Newthoughts]

If the reported info from the mother is to be believed, the potential suspect has made a big thing of defending why Libby was in his car and why there was some kind of altercation between them within his car. This, for me, suggests that he needs, more than anything, to explain her presence in his car and possibly his dna on her clothes and/or body. Nowhere in the reported story, was there any mention of the park. The story just fizzles out at the end, which is weird. I was left thinking 'yes, right, and?'
I really want to know why the story stops before the end.
Did the journalist ask 'and then what happened?', did the interviewee refuse to comment further? and if so, why?

You and me both. Strange details. Crying girl that wantied to go home. Address in sat nav intending to do that. Pushing girl away? Where? In or out of the car? What happened next.

IMO that was all the family were told. One of the reasons I believe it came from him whether via his wife or directly is that lack if detail about what happened next or even during. If you and I want to know what happened next I'd be amazed if journalists didn't.

Difficult to see it as anything other than an attempt to explain DNA in car and on him.

 

[Skigh]

I wonder when he told that story.
Was it to his wife when Libby went missing and it was in the media or after his arrest?

 

[Woollybear]

I think theory 2 as well, only because I think she'd have been found earlier in theory 1.

Finding locations where Libby's body entered the water would explain the amount of time it's taking. I think if PR is the POI it's possible he'd know good illegal fishing sites. But going there doesn't suggest a panicked person to me. It suggests someone who'd thought about it in advance

Against is the fact that the police's searches have focused on the local parks and oak road park in particular and the fact the current alleged POI never seems to stray far from home. So I'd assume they have something placing Libby there. The perp would have to transport a body before 3am.

Or there was an accomplice.

Hello Newthoughts

The site out at Paull isn't an illegal fishing site, it seems to be quite popular with sea-anglers generally and appears, from the warning notice about the erosion, to be owned by ERYCC.

 

[Cherwell]

I wonder when he told that story.
Was it to his wife when Libby went missing and it was in the media or after his arrest?

That's what I thought, it probably originated from something he told his wife, and the rest of the family heard her version of what he'd told her.

Re the use of the term 'homicide', this was all discussed earlier, and the explanation was that it covers both murder and manslaughter.

 

[Woollybear]

I think it's Theory 2 because I think the perpetrator, because of his hobbies or interests knew of a 'good' river-side location to take the probably unconscious Libby (in the boot or lying on the back seat of his car). I think it was at this disposal point that he killed her (outside of his car) and put her body and any other evidence into the river. I think he had time to do this before the friends had informed the police that Libby was missing, so there would have been little fear of police attention. The police were interested in activity before 3am, which suggests to me that they know what their suspect was doing after 3am but not before.
I think the reason the police are calling it 'homicide' is because the post mortem has shown an injury which would have had fatal consequences and could not have been inflicted by anything other than a human.

Interesting, Winterbells. I must admit that I have always thought if the POI killed her it was a) at the playing fields and b) as an unplanned result of a sexual assault or rape gone wrong. That's also why I see manslaughter as a likely outcome. I don't see what is to be gained for him by taking her all the way out there and then deliberately killing her. But I can buy it as a solution to the panic of finding a dead girl on your hands, if you knew about Paull, and the only other alternative was the relatively shallow and slow-flowing River Hull. Overnight, however, I have thought about another potential problem with the Paull site - it seems that some people do night fishing there, so he may not have had the place to himself, even at 2.30AM.

 

[Woollybear]

I've looked back to try and find the relevant post mentioning a location in Paull as a potential area of interest. Is it the car park pictured below?

If so I would like to add that I have been there a few times on an evening with a friend (probably about 5years ago now), when looking for a uhhhh 'quiet spot' for some uhhh "car fun' haha. Anyway, my point is, that it was rarely quiet there. Most often 1 or 2 fishing, sometimes boy racers having little car meets and possibly other 'couples' looking for some time out. I was also told a while later that it was a known 'dogging spot' lol, which would fit perfectly with PRs voyeuristic ways - and very likely a site he knew well.

The site Winterbells identified was beyond the end of Town End Road, there's a car park and beyond that, a patch of wasteland that has a notice from ERYCC saying that the footpath along the shore is unstable because of erosion. From Google Street View it looks like you can get beyond the car park and up on to the sea wall, and a quick census of sea-fishing forums confirms that this is indeed what people do.

 

[Skigh]

That's what I thought, it probably originated from something he told his wife, and the rest of the family heard her version of what he'd told her.

Re the use of the term 'homicide', this was all discussed earlier, and the explanation was that it covers both murder and manslaughter.

Why did he need to tell his wife anything about picking up a crying girl before his arrest?
After his arrest would he have been able to speak to her other than via his solicitor?

I know it is probably going over old conversations but I can not recall any other case where the term homicide was used.
Before earlier posts I thought it was an American term for murder!

 

[Newthoughts]

Interesting, Winterbells. I must admit that I have always thought if the POI killed her it was a) at the playing fields and b) as an unplanned result of a sexual assault or rape gone wrong. That's also why I see manslaughter as a likely outcome. I don't see what is to be gained for him by taking her all the way out there and then deliberately killing her. But I can buy it as a solution to the panic of finding a dead girl on your hands, if you knew about Paull, and the only other alternative was the relatively shallow and slow-flowing River Hull. Overnight, however, I have thought about another potential problem with the Paull site - it seems that some people do night fishing there, so he may not have had the place to himself, even at 2.30AM.

I'd like to ask a question about the killing as an unplanned / accidental consequence of a sexual assault or rape that seems to be the opinion favoured by lots of people.

Rapists sadly manage to overpower sober and alert women all the time without killing them. A drunk, vulnerable and freezing woman would be far easier.

If PR was the perpetrator he is stocky and has broad shoulders. Libby was struggling to walk, drink, vulnerable and distressed by all accounts. Probably terrified as well.

I'd say she'd be easy to assault, rape and then leave without the sort of Struggle that would result in death. So why couldn't he have simply and deliberately decided to kill her

 

[Plod]

Can’t see that stabbing would be involved - there would be blood evidence - certain that if there was blood evidence then there would be a charge of murder.

 

[Woollybear]

I'd like to ask a question about the killing as an unplanned / accidental consequence of a sexual assault or rape that seems to be the opinion favoured by lots of people.

Rapists sadly manage to overpower sober and alert women all the time without killing them. A drunk, vulnerable and freezing woman would be far easier.

If PR was the perpetrator he is stocky and has broad shoulders. Libby was struggling to walk, drink, vulnerable and distressed by all accounts. Probably terrified as well.

I'd say she'd be easy to assault, rape and then leave without the sort of Struggle that would result in death. So why couldn't he have simply and deliberately decided to kill her

If she resisted, and started to scream, and fight back, and it was the middle of the night and the screams were carrying a long way, whoever was responsible may have panicked and put his hands over her face intending to keep her quiet, so as not to attract attention.

I just don't buy into the alternative of them stalking the streets looking for a girl to kill... we're into Jack the Ripper territory there, and while I admit, every serial killer has to have a first victim, I don't see the person who has been identified in the media as being psychopathic. Or organised. More opportunist and interested in sex. But then I am not a psychologist.

 

[Skigh]

I agree with you,Plod, I do not think it was anything which caused blood loss.

I think if he did not have a condom and he raped her he worried about DNA evidence especially after his other offences.

If she was screaming he wanted to silence her.

 

[Newthoughts]

If she resisted, and started to scream, and fight back, and it was the middle of the night and the screams were carrying a long way, whoever was responsible may have panicked and put his hands over her face intending to keep her quiet, so as not to attract attention.

I just don't buy into the alternative of them stalking the streets looking for a girl to kill... We're into Jack the Ripper territory there, and while I admit, every serial killer has to have a first victim, I don't see the person who has been identified in the media as being psychopathic. Or organised. More opportunist and interested in sex. But then I am not a psychologist.

I struggle to buy it as well but I also struggle with the alternative of sex attack gone wrong. A strong guy and drunk distressed woman - doesn't need that much force.

He's been charged with a range of offences that, if true, appear to suggest a very successful stalker of the streets.

If someone is prepared to take a vulnerable person in distress and do them harm aren't they already showing elements of psychopathy? Without any empathy or reaction to her distress? Most of us feel sick at the thought of what could have happened.

 

[Newthoughts]

I agree with you,Plod, I do not think it was anything which caused blood loss.

I think if he did not have a condom and he raped her he worried about DNA evidence especially after his other offences.

If she was screaming he wanted to silence her.

He hadn't been caught for his other alleged offences at that point.

Do you think he could have killed accidentally to silence her, or deliberately to get rid of evidence.

 

[Winterbells]

I'd like to ask a question about the killing as an unplanned / accidental consequence of a sexual assault or rape that seems to be the opinion favoured by lots of people.

Rapists sadly manage to overpower sober and alert women all the time without killing them. A drunk, vulnerable and freezing woman would be far easier.

If PR was the perpetrator he is stocky and has broad shoulders. Libby was struggling to walk, drink, vulnerable and distressed by all accounts. Probably terrified as well.

I'd say she'd be easy to assault, rape and then leave without the sort of Struggle that would result in death. So why couldn't he have simply and deliberately decided to kill her

The alleged crimes of the potential suspect, (apart from the petty thefts) all seem to be about subverting privacy. It's like the idea of sexual things being private is the source of the excitement - the person wants these private things exposed. 'I've seen your underwear, sex toys, photographs... I've made you watch me having sex with myself' etc. (I'd be surprised if someone with these interests wasn't also drawn to dogging sites).
But I find it hard to understand why someone with the above profile would seek out direct contact with a woman. It's not the same style at all. And to do what? Flash at her whilst she's trapped in the car? I guess maybe. But then kill her? really?
But having read a tiny bit about what drives flashers, it does seem that if the flashee doesn't behave 'appropriately', i.e. shocked and scared, the flasher can become angry.
That could be key.

 

[Winterbells]

Do you think he could have killed accidentally to silence her, or deliberately to get rid of evidence.

I think shame is another reason why killers kill.
If they kill the victim, it's like it never happened.

 

[JosieJo]

Why did he need to tell his wife anything about picking up a crying girl before his arrest?
After his arrest would he have been able to speak to her other than via his solicitor?

I know it is probably going over old conversations but I can not recall any other case where the term homicide was used.
Before earlier posts I thought it was an American term for murder!

Me too