Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #105

[FleurQualia]

I'm relying on the LE quote that Libby's photo of Abby on the bridge was taken "minutes" before the girls were killed. While we've discussed the meaning of "minutes" in prior threads, and technically any period longer than 119 seconds could be referred to as "minutes", I think the wording of the statement was intentional and precise. I.e., the girls were murdered not immediately after the picture was taken (while they were still on the bridge, not fully across it, nor yet ordered "down the hill"), but most likely less than an hour afterward – so probably before 3:07 pm, as the photo posted at 2:07.

MOO

It's scary how quickly something like this can happen. Once he made it to them, they never stood a chance.

Also, another shout out to WSers who have been in dangerous situations. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a gun to your head. I've been in situations that gave me the heebie jeebies and knew I had to get out of them, but never anything that life threatening or extreme.

 

[Charlot123]

What if the killer is known to LE but for seemingly unrelated activities, say drugs or domestic violence. What if said new/recent girlfriend lived in Delphi or immediate area and was herself well known around town as well as her family? Most people would likely not give this guy a second look. Firstly, because they don't really know him, and because he's hanging out with so and so's daughter. He's hiding in plain sight.

Possible.
Also...
There are people who are constantly seen because they are in “active” professions. Just an example - a car dealer. A local doctor. A mailman. A hairdresser. There are lots of people we see frequently, and in fact, may know nothing about them, but we think we do, because we talk to them. Then there are people who might have often been in the vicinity of the bridge, but unseen (a cemetery worker). I am not pointing fingers at anyone, just giving examples.

Only I think the person lives on the outskirts of Delphi, and is, likely, a hunter.

 

[tresir2012]

I think that pic is more NNE and the scene is ENE or even NE. Haven’t seen a pic from the S end of the bridge facing the scene. It looks like there are a lot of trees which would make it tough to see, but I can’t say for sure. I can’t upload the photo at the moment, but it comes up in google images associated with this case. A reporter posted it via twitter.

The pic of the bridge from the crime scene is in the image thread.
Also, the other pic that Libby took of just the bridge was facing the south end of the bridge, so is useful to look at as well. The left hand side of that shot would be directed approximately at the crime scene and again the thickness of the tree cover is evident.

 

[Charlot123]

Slightly OT, but the link to the article about the Flora fire investigation is a bit disturbing, including the fact that ISP thought the fire was "accidental" for several months before noticing it wasn't.

Then there's the lack of communication with the family to provide updates on the investigation. Also problematic is the family being harassed by people who had worked on the investigation. Why would any professional investigator do that?

And the case still hasn't been solved nearly 3 years later? I realize this case isn't connected to Abby & Libby's murders, but, JMO, reading about it causes me to have some concerns about the ISP.

Family shares memories of 4 sisters killed in Flora fire

It is all still unclear. I remember one case, where a father was accused of arson that claimed the lives of his three daughters, and executed, but it is still a questionable case. (Todd Willingham.) We shall never know the truth, but all I learned was that the use of accelerants is a very questionable issue in cases of fire, hard to interpret, and even experts make mistakes. So in the case of the Flora fire, I think they needed higher level of expertise to prove or disprove accelerants being used. MOO.

 

[Cutiekitty]

The pic of the bridge from the crime scene is in the image thread.
Also, the other pic that Libby took of just the bridge was facing the south end of the bridge, so is useful to look at as well. The left hand side of that shot would be directed approximately at the crime scene and again the thickness of the tree cover is evident.

I definitely don’t think anyone could’ve seen much from the south end of the bridge. The bridge photo is deceptive because it looks like it’s so dense you can’t see anything, but from a straight on view from that end of the bridge towards the crime scene I don’t think it is as dense. At the most somebody would’ve been able to see the red jacket AW was wearing and recognize that a person was over there IMO. Is there a photo at the same time of year from the bridge to the crime scene that you are aware of? TBH I have a hard time finding things in the media and image threads.

EDIT: now I’m just curious.

 

[Falling Down]

The pic of the bridge from the crime scene is in the image thread.
Also, the other pic that Libby took of just the bridge was facing the south end of the bridge, so is useful to look at as well. The left hand side of that shot would be directed approximately at the crime scene and again the thickness of the tree cover is evident.

The exact spot where they were found cannot be seen from the bridge, and there are other "natural barriers" as I'll call them right in that immediate area. One is an old gravel pit along the boundary of the two private properties, adjacent to the cemetery. The pit is in a ravine where I'd imagine rainwater and snow melt drain into the creek. It can be seen clearly on old archived aerial images from the 90's on Google Earth, there's a drive/path from a corner of the cemetery to the pit a short distance away.

There's a raised berm of sorts along there, I included a SS from a MSM video of RL being interviewed shortly after the murders showing it. Where they are standing is maybe 300 feet or so from the back of the cemetery.

The information I share about the CS not being visible from the bridge comes from YouTube users' videos of the spot. You could step maybe 10 feet in one direction and see the bridge, the CS is obscured by trees and the lower part of the incline which leads to the cemetery and the top of the gorge. Like others here have noted, BG needed "privacy" to carry out the murders. He didn't kill the girls at the SE end of the bridge, or on the land along the south side of the creek. He had his spot picked out in advance.

JMO

-FD

 

[Betty P]

I agree. Betty, do you know, has it ever been discussed about news helicopter video footage showing clothing in the creek? TIA

No, the only footage I saw was searchers wading through the creek on Feb. 14 searching for evidence. It makes me feel very sad every time I see it. That was a terrible day here at WS.

As info, the statistical info about abduction and murder of young children is here

OIG Audit Report 09-08

The Washington State Attorney General’s Office also conducted research on child abduction murders and made the following observations based on its review of over 775 cases between 1968 and 2002:

• in 76 percent of the murders of an abducted child, the child was murdered within 3 hours of the abduction;
  
  
• in 89 percent of the cases, the missing child died within 24 hours of disappearing;
  
  
• in nearly 60 percent of the cases, more than 2 hours passed between the time someone realized the child was missing and the time police were notified; and
  
  
• the primary motive for the abductor was sexual assault.81

Also more info from this 2006 report shared on Marc Klass's web site. Anyone who follows cases of missing children will find this information very helpful. The report also notes that 46% of missing children are murdered within the first hour of abduction.

http://www.pollyklaas.org/media/press-releases/wa-abduction-homicide-study.pdf

Marc Klass's web site has always been a good source of information about missing kids, what to do, etc. JMO

ETA: Also interesting that the report above states most strangers who abduct and kill children are young and only 17% of them live alone. Most live with parents or are in a relationship.

 

[MistyWaters]

Slightly OT, but the link to the article about the Flora fire investigation is a bit disturbing, including the fact that ISP thought the fire was "accidental" for several months before noticing it wasn't.

Then there's the lack of communication with the family to provide updates on the investigation. Also problematic is the family being harassed by people who had worked on the investigation. Why would any professional investigator do that?

And the case still hasn't been solved nearly 3 years later? I realize this case isn't connected to Abby & Libby's murders, but, JMO, reading about it causes me to have some concerns about the ISP.

Family shares memories of 4 sisters killed in Flora fire

The mom and her aunt just recently spoke out. Sadly it seems the only way for the family of the four girls to receive media attention is by comparison to the Delphi investigation.

"Nobody cares, not in Carroll County, not in the state of Indiana. I'm appalled that the State of Indiana hasn't done more," said Anderson.

They are harsh words from a family who claim State Police investigators are less responsive to the plight of their girls than the murders of the Delphi girls.

Anderson said she saw the Delphi case on national news just weeks ago after State Police put out a new sketch. It wasn't the first time. Ten months after the Delphi case, the State Police Superintendent was on national television talking about Abby and Libby on the NBC daytime show, Dr. Phil....

......Citing the drastic sketch changes in the Delphi case, Gaylin said she worried about the fire investigation too.

"Are they even looking in the right direction? How can you mistaken somebody for two years," Gaylin said referring to the Delphi sketches. "I kind of question are they doing their job right?"....”
Mother and family of Flora girls call for action in arson case

 

[mtnlites]

Do you think the girls were still alive and being captive when the dad came looking for them? Not much time passed from the Snapchat picture of Abby to the time of the dad's arrival.

No. I think it was over very quickly for them and LE seems to think so as well. They've stated that the picture was made just minutes before their deaths. It would not have been in BG's best interest to hold onto them down there by the creek. Too risky. I think he either killed them quickly because that's what he'd planned to do or it was a botched abduction and he underestimated them and killed them there before they could get away and point fingers at him.Statistics back up quick deaths after abductions.

 

[TheVisual]

I definitely don’t think anyone could’ve seen much from the south end of the bridge. The bridge photo is deceptive because it looks like it’s so dense you can’t see anything, but from a straight on view from that end of the bridge towards the crime scene I don’t think it is as dense. At the most somebody would’ve been able to see the red jacket AW was wearing and recognize that a person was over there IMO. Is there a photo at the same time of year from the bridge to the crime scene that you are aware of? TBH I have a hard time finding things in the media and image threads.

EDIT: now I’m just curious.

I believe AW's jacket was gray but her shirt was a reddish color. Check out the Snapchat photo Libby took of her.

 

[tresir2012]

I definitely don’t think anyone could’ve seen much from the south end of the bridge. The bridge photo is deceptive because it looks like it’s so dense you can’t see anything, but from a straight on view from that end of the bridge towards the crime scene I don’t think it is as dense. At the most somebody would’ve been able to see the red jacket AW was wearing and recognize that a person was over there IMO. Is there a photo at the same time of year from the bridge to the crime scene that you are aware of? TBH I have a hard time finding things in the media and image threads.

EDIT: now I’m just curious.

Yes Libby's other pic she took of the empty bridge the opposite direction to the 2.07 snap. There is also a pic of a couple of searchers on the bridge too.

 

[susiQ]

Slightly OT, but the link to the article about the Flora fire investigation is a bit disturbing, including the fact that ISP thought the fire was "accidental" for several months before noticing it wasn't.

Then there's the lack of communication with the family to provide updates on the investigation. Also problematic is the family being harassed by people who had worked on the investigation. Why would any professional investigator do that?

And the case still hasn't been solved nearly 3 years later? I realize this case isn't connected to Abby & Libby's murders, but, JMO, reading about it causes me to have some concerns about the ISP.

Family shares memories of 4 sisters killed in Flora fire

In defence of Supt DC and the ISP, I watched him say they would like to sit down with the mother to have a discussion about the comings and goings of people in the weeks leading up to the fire to assist in their investigation. How can anyone fault them for wanting to do that? It appears the family would rather blame ISP than provide them with the information they are looking for. JMO

I have no doubt ISP is doing what they can with what they have in both the Flora investigation and the investigation into Abby and Libby's murders. Yes, it is very sad they have not yet been solved, but here's hoping it won't be too much longer.
ed:sp

 

[FleurQualia]

Question: the pic taken of Abby shows the bridge empty besides them, but a few minutes later they were attacked. Is it assumed BG came from the direction that the pic was taken, or the opposite way? Is it possible to cross the bridge that quickly?

 

[stg]

Question: the pic taken of Abby shows the bridge empty besides them, but a few minutes later they were attacked. Is it assumed BG came from the direction that the pic was taken, or the opposite way? Is it possible to cross the bridge that quickly?

He came from the direction Abby was standing in the photo from everything we have heard, and that was definitely the direction he was traveling in Libby’s video of him. It takes less than 10 minutes to cross the bridge from what I have read from people who have crossed it, so it was definitely possible.

 

[Cutiekitty]

I believe AW's jacket was gray but her shirt was a reddish color. Check out the Snapchat photo Libby took of her.

My bad! The red shirt. I knew some part of her outfit was red.

I think someone could’ve seen that, but they probably wouldn’t have known what they were seeing. Based on what LG was said to be wearing and what we know BG was wearing I don’t think they’d be visible at all.

EDIT: I’m not saying they should’ve. My whole point about the proximity of the bridge is it’s much closer to the scene than I thought.

 

[tresir2012]

This is a RTV6 video of the trail and bridge. Play the video and about halfway thru at 1min 40 secs the crossing of the bridge is shown and you can turn the view around 360° ( just put your finger on the screen and drag it around) so it is helpful to show what can be seen from the bridge at all angles. I will also post the pic of the searchers on the bridge link below.

Google Image Result for https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/pharostribune.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/7f/c7fc3b10-f314-11e6-b732-0f5cd0bc8229/58a39f2e294e3.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C803

The view of the bridge from the crime scene is on the last page of the image thread post #1122.

I think it's good to have a look at the pics again and have a refresh of the area in our minds.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Yes Libby's other pic she took of the empty bridge the opposite direction to the 2.07 snap. There is also a pic of a couple of searchers on the bridge too.

The empty bridge photo is the one I was talking about above. Will try to find the searcher photo. I’m sure there have got to be some pics out there from the south end of the bridge showing the alleged path they took. I don’t think any of this means anything. I’m just curious about it.

 

[Falling Down]

No. I think it was over very quickly for them and LE seems to think so as well. They've stated that the picture was made just minutes before their deaths. It would not have been in BG's best interest to hold onto them down there by the creek. Too risky. I think he either killed them quickly because that's what he'd planned to do or it was a botched abduction and he underestimated them and killed them there before they could get away and point fingers at him.Statistics back up quick deaths after abductions.

Two years ago i thought maybe they were killed around 2:40 or so, I now believe it was 2:30 or so.

The empty bridge photo is the one I was talking about above. Will try to find the searcher photo. I’m sure there have got to be some pics out there from the south end of the bridge showing the alleged path they took. I don’t think any of this means anything. I’m just curious about it.

JM's YT channel has videos of the areas in question, hope this helps.

Julie Melvin

 

[MistyWaters]

Question: the pic taken of Abby shows the bridge empty besides them, but a few minutes later they were attacked. Is it assumed BG came from the direction that the pic was taken, or the opposite way? Is it possible to cross the bridge that quickly?

If the timeline the family shared on Dr Phil (re-thread #76) is correct - - the photo of Abby’s on the bridge was sent by SC at 2:07pm (was it sent immediately after the pic was taken, unknown).
- Libby’s video of the man on the bridge was captured at appx 2:30pm,
- DG first attempted to call his daughter at 3:11pm immediately prior to arriving and then again at 3:14pm when he arrived at the pickup location.

So it’s estimated the attack took place somewhere within a timeframe 41 minutes, between 2:30pm and 3:11pm.

ISP have recently stated the girls were murdered “within minutes” of Libby’s photo of the man. Assumably the DTH audio was recorded by Libby upon his closer approach.

By the marking on the ties in the photo it appears he came from the NW, approaching the SE end (re GH’s videos) but it’s unknown if he walked the entire length towards them or where he came from.

It has been reported the bridge can be crossed in 5 minutes at a brisk pace iirc.

 

[Angelcat13]

What if the killer is known to LE but for seemingly unrelated activities, say drugs or domestic violence. What if said new/recent girlfriend lived in Delphi or immediate area and was herself well known around town as well as her family? Most people would likely not give this guy a second look. Firstly, because they don't really know him, and because he's hanging out with so and so's daughter. He's hiding in plain sight.

If he hadn't previously been in the area and was suddenly in the area in the time frame immediately preceding and following the murders I still think they would have looked at him.