Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #107

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R.U.Kidding! said:
Strictly MOO!
A few have suggested this was and is a Pure Luck and random crime, I have strong doubts on this theory:

It has been mentioned this is a very popular park by people who live in the area---if so why then is this the first of its kind?
Do we believe there is a random murderer out there that has never targeted this area or any other area in Delphi?
If this were random have LE put out a formal warning for this killer as a threat to the community?
Seems like Abby and Libby were the ones he was interested in only?

When suggested Abby and Libby may have known this person, a few have stated LE has done extensive search of all Social media and friends, and surely would have found out if the girls knew him. I had said this could have been a secret crush or someone to keep secret. Secrets are not shared on Social Media--God knows that would never be a secret would it?
No! I believe this was someone the Young women did not want to share information on …...or he was someone who only Monitored them on Social media.

Why would a random killer be dressed in heavy clothing and have deliberately covered up his identity, and perhaps had weapons on him to stroll around a park for a Lucy Break! If that were the case someone that obvious would have stood out before contact with Abby and Libby don't you think? Even one of the girls refused to even wear a jacket that day.

I also find it incredibly odd that witnesses could have seen him through his disguise clearly enough to make a composite sketch, if that were the case why could no one else see through the video of him.
I also find it odd that it has been stated that a posters husbands carries a backpack with knives , twine and first aid material Everyday...this is someone who herself visits the park and lives near there. If her husband is a park ranger that would make sense other than that ….everyday? WHY? Does that mean many people in this area dress like him and carry dangerous tools? I doubt that.
….and finally if my belief that these young women may have known this individual is Victim Blaming , I assure you these young women simply trusted a very bad person. How could they possible know he was going to murder them. No, this was crime that could be committed only out of their Innocence.
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It was never stated by LE that BG was wearing a disguise.
You would be surprised by the amount of men, and women, that carry knives and guns daily for their protection. It doesn’t mean they are murderers carrying a kill kit.
 
Why did Libby video him and at that distance? What tipped her off? I know there is just gut instinct but still, it seems like it would be something more... Did she just happen to have her phone on those functions already, something she liked to do, record their day, record people, etc.? Let's be honest, many kids do that hoping to catch the next most watched Utube video, etc. Did he say something, yell something, make some gesture, had they seen him earlier that day? Were they to meet someone there and he was NOT who they expected? Alternatively did they know him or of him and were not scared? Did he look odd? Honestly the photo makes him look pretty nondescript, nothing overly scary, but granted we cannot see detail, facial or otherwise.

I can't myself, from anything we know, rule any of these things out.

Why did everyone seem to just disappear to that day? It was nowhere near dark and there was no school. 10 to 20 students did not ride together although I guess they could have left simultaneously for some reason. Everyone else as well? A lull before and after is what we have heard.

Not one thing I have stated is anything new but are things I still wonder about... Sigh...

Jmo.
 
ilovechili said:
Why did Libby video him and at that distance? What tipped her off? I know there is just gut instinct but still, it seems like it would be something more... Did she just happen to have her phone on those functions already, something she liked to do, record their day, record people, etc.? Let's be honest, many kids do that hoping to catch the next most watched Utube video, etc. Did he say something, yell something, make some gesture, had they seen him earlier that day? Were they to meet someone there and he was NOT who they expected? Alternatively did they know him or of him and were not scared? Did he look odd? Honestly the photo makes him look pretty nondescript, nothing overly scary, but granted we cannot see detail, facial or otherwise.

I can't myself, from anything we know, rule any of these things out.

Why did everyone seem to just disappear to that day? It was nowhere near dark and there was no school. 10 to 20 students did not ride together although I guess they could have left simultaneously for some reason. Everyone else as well? A lull before and after is what we have heard.

Not one thing I have stated is anything new but are things I still wonder about... Sigh...

Jmo.
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BBM

Good questions IMO, and I’ve wondered the same.

The default seems to be that Libby videoed BG because she was concerned/worried/feared him. Especially if we believe that she can be heard on tape saying things “about some guy” (iirc that was 2nd hand info from BP but not verified or released by LE). To note, we’ve discussed here how she did NOT say he was “creepy”. He could have been, but that’s not specifically what’s been relayed.

Anyway, I’m not so sure that the reason for the video is necessarily what it seems to be. There are other reasons Libby could have recorded BG- not just bc she had a foreboding that he would do something. She could have been recording him bc (bear with me): he was doing something interesting (skipping boards, etc), he was just in the frame of her recording something else (we only get 2 seconds of recording so it could have been a fluke he was in it), they knew him and were recording him with his knowledge to have a video of his bravery, etc, or other reasons. I’ve just named a couple.

It’s certainly very possible Libby thought he was menacing and this recorded him for “future reference”, but it’s not a foregone conclusion IMO. After all, LE does say we’re getting everything wrong.

When I first started following this case I surmised one or both of the girls knew him, then moved away to thinking they were random victims, to now being back at my first hypothesis. I think at least one of them knew him or knew of him. And I’m leaning towards thinking that they did not video him bc they were scared and wanted to document him, but rather some other reason (which I’ve not fully fleshed out).

MOO
 
MJPeony said:
BBM

Good questions IMO, and I’ve wondered the same.

The default seems to be that Libby videoed BG because she was concerned/worried/feared him. Especially if we believe that she can be heard on tape saying things “about some guy” (iirc that was 2nd hand info from BP but not verified or released by LE). To note, we’ve discussed here how she did NOT say he was “creepy”. He could have been, but that’s not specifically what’s been relayed.

Anyway, I’m not so sure that the reason for the video is necessarily what it seems to be. There are other reasons Libby could have recorded BG- not just bc she had a foreboding that he would do something. She could have been recording him bc (bear with me): he was doing something interesting (skipping boards, etc), he was just in the frame of her recording something else (we only get 2 seconds of recording so it could have been a fluke he was in it), they knew him and were recording him with his knowledge to have a video of his bravery, etc, or other reasons. I’ve just named a couple.

It’s certainly very possible Libby thought he was menacing and this recorded him for “future reference”, but it’s not a foregone conclusion IMO. After all, LE does say we’re getting everything wrong.

When I first started following this case I surmised one or both of the girls knew him, then moved away to thinking they were random victims, to now being back at my first hypothesis. I think at least one of them knew him or knew of him. And I’m leaning towards thinking that they did not video him bc they were scared and wanted to document him, but rather some other reason (which I’ve not fully fleshed out).

MOO
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I have always felt maybe he was recorded by accident while Libby was recording Abby. She'd taken a picture of Abby at the beginning of the bridge, so it makes sense she would do the same at the end.

However, I do recall LE saying something early on about Libby being a hero because she recorded him. Since LE has seen/heard everything recorded, I have to believe they have reason to think she did it purposefully. IDK.
 
ilovechili said:
Why did Libby video him and at that distance? What tipped her off? I know there is just gut instinct but still, it seems like it would be something more... Did she just happen to have her phone on those functions already, something she liked to do, record their day, record people, etc.? Let's be honest, many kids do that hoping to catch the next most watched Utube video, etc. Did he say something, yell something, make some gesture, had they seen him earlier that day? Were they to meet someone there and he was NOT who they expected? Alternatively did they know him or of him and were not scared? Did he look odd? Honestly the photo makes him look pretty nondescript, nothing overly scary, but granted we cannot see detail, facial or otherwise.

I can't myself, from anything we know, rule any of these things out.

Why did everyone seem to just disappear to that day? It was nowhere near dark and there was no school. 10 to 20 students did not ride together although I guess they could have left simultaneously for some reason. Everyone else as well? A lull before and after is what we have heard.

Not one thing I have stated is anything new but are things I still wonder about... Sigh...

Jmo.
Click to expand...
Not only why did Libby start taking a video of him...why on earth did he give them reason to (which is why I think she did: he was shouting & being belligerent)...when he is still a distance away from his victims....why give his victims time to get a clue as to what's going on, time to run...?
 
TL4S said:
I have always felt maybe he was recorded by accident while Libby was recording Abby. She'd taken a picture of Abby at the beginning of the bridge, so it makes sense she would do the same at the end.

However, I do recall LE saying something early on about Libby being a hero because she recorded him. Since LE has seen/heard everything recorded, I have to believe they have reason to think she did it purposefully. IDK.
Click to expand...

Yes, I see what you’re saying, and perhaps. Although she could still be a hero for recording him even if she didn’t mean to do so because she was specifically spooked by him.

LE has heard everything on the tapes but it may not indicate they were scared of him initially. LE could have just been saying she was a hero bc she gave us the video regardless. Or the fact that she kept the video or audio going- which could have been intentional or not. Either way- hero to have provided the evidence. JMO. Trying to think outside the proverbial box. LE saying we’ve got it all wrong keeps lingering in the recesses of my mind.
 
TL4S said:
I have always felt maybe he was recorded by accident while Libby was recording Abby. She'd taken a picture of Abby at the beginning of the bridge, so it makes sense she would do the same at the end.

However, I do recall LE saying something early on about Libby being a hero because she recorded him. Since LE has seen/heard everything recorded, I have to believe they have reason to think she did it purposefully. IDK.
Click to expand...

Been wondering the same. Also wondering if the video and the audio recording are one and the same or were they 2 separate recordings
 
MJPeony said:
LE saying we’ve got it all wrong keeps lingering in the recesses of my mind.
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Yeah - so how is it we have IT ALL WRONG....all of it...? All of it?
That seems unlikely......how is that possible. We know they were murdered, by the perp Libby recorded right....?
It happened near @ the bridge...right?
That's fundamental....I'd like to know what 'all' we have wrong...?
Sure - ideas about the perp - well as far as we know LE also only has 'ideas' about the perp....
Frustrating...
BTW: no frustration with you MJPeony, of course! - just bizarre to me LE saying we all online have it 'all wrong' There's really not much in the case to get wrong, frankly. There's not much evidence released etc.
What the heck is there to 'get wrong'....Two gals on a walk in a park, cross a bridge, take pics, video, one is probably dude who ended up killing them after instructing them on what he expects them to do...they are found near that creek....so what's 'all wrong' about my statement...sure like to know. (BTW & welcome any here to point out what's wrong, sincerely, I'm flummoxed!)
LE statement in & of itself is interesting....
 
MJPeony said:
Yes, I see what you’re saying, and perhaps. Although she could still be a hero for recording him even if she didn’t mean to do so because she was specifically spooked by him.

LE has heard everything on the tapes but it may not indicate they were scared of him initially. LE could have just been saying she was a hero bc she gave us the video regardless. Or the fact that she kept the video or audio going- which could have been intentional or not. Either way- hero to have provided the evidence. JMO. Trying to think outside the proverbial box. LE saying we’ve got it all wrong keeps lingering in the recesses of my mind.
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Keeps lingering in mine, too.
 
I agree with all of the responses and can't rule out a single possibility of why she was recording and all are good thoughts and I have very similar ones.

I too wonder what was gotten wrong considering few facts are out there? I thought that remark mainly related to Utube re-enactments had it wrong? Or was it with all thoughts?

Jmo.
 
Does anyone know if Libby took the video with the front facing camera. You know as if you are taking a selfie. I have this image in my mind of her walking to the end of the bridge but videoing behind her. It may not have been obvious to BG that he was being videoed if she wasn't looking directly at him.
 
ilovechili said:
I agree with all of the responses and can't rule out a single possibility of why she was recording and all are good thoughts and I have very similar ones.

I too wonder what was gotten wrong considering few facts are out there? I thought that remark mainly related to Utube re-enactments had it wrong? Or was it with all thoughts?

Jmo.
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bbm

That was my understanding also.
 
Thelastleg said:
Does anyone know if Libby took the video with the front facing camera. You know as if you are taking a selfie. I have this image in my mind of her walking to the end of the bridge but videoing behind her. It may not have been obvious to BG that he was being videoed if she wasn't looking directly at him.
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Somewhere in these threads there is a video by a local reporter who states that as fact. I do not know if she was correct but there was lots of discussion at the time. moo

ETA: IIRC, it was Alexis McAdams.

ETA: See post 282 for link to video.
 
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In October 1998, a convenience store clerk was murdered at a gas station in Lansing, MI. This case was featured on an episode of Forensic Files titled Video Diary.

Police had video surveillance, but could not make a clear identification of the suspect that would hold up in court. They turned to a company called Veridian that worked on enhancing photos taken by the spaceship. Veridian cleared up photos for NASA. This idea allowed police to come up with a composite sketch that someone in the community recognized leading to the suspect who ended up being the killer.

So are either of the two sketches in the Abigail Williams and Liberty German case correct? I still think the two sketches must be off, but then I have to factor in that police must know about a company called Veridian so I do not know anymore. I think it really depends on whether the sketch was based off an eyewitness description or off of Liberty German's phone video?

I think you should always use previous cases to try and come up with solutions. Since I watch Forensic Files I am guessing so does law enforcement.

I still think if this case gets solved it will be because of the video images Liberty German captured on her cell phone.
 
I just read what Purdue Univ. has reported for crime - it looks fairly benign for students living on campus. I will assume they are reporting all crimes.
Off campus told a different story, although I don't know if the crimes are attributed to students. City data shows a notable spike in rapes and assaults in 2016, and the data collected on Purdue seems to correlate with this. You have to read all the way through the Purdue report and get to the "off campus" students.
City Data (look for the crime table)
http://www.city-data.com/city/West-Lafayette-Indiana.html
https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/purdue-university-main-campus/student-life/crime/

The data above is from the 2016-17 timeframe; relevant as it relates to the timing of the murders of the 2 Roses. The above data should be considered directional, not absolute.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
I have covertly videoed a couple of people that I did not know that I thought might be up to no good or made me nervous.

One time, it was just because of the way this guy was looking at me. He seemed off. His mannerisms were odd, he looked at me strangely from far off and then came closer and gave me a look like he was angry with me. I didn't know him, nor had I done anything to offend him.

I saw him again in the mall that same day. He was still wandering around and I decided to film him. He made me uneasy.

Could be the same situation. They passed early on the trails and he made them uneasy and then he came up on them and Libby decided to film him.
 
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