NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #5

[GoingByMyGut]

Hi, All —

Can't believe I am jumping back in after several years' time ‍ But HI!

I think there are so many problems in determining where, if dead, Sylvia might be. Looking only at the possibility of burial and forgetting about suicide, the ocean, and Hart Island for a moment:

(1) Her killer would have been ASSISTED by the fact that, AFAIK, there was never a formal search for her body (you don't look for a body when you don't recognize homicide or other type of death as possible, and only see a missing person — one that you prefer to think left of her own accord).

(2) When you look at SI in the late 1970s, so much more of it was undeveloped, but even then, smart money was on Fresh Kills landfill OR on the wider sections of undeveloped land along the coast to the south (now Conference House Park, but not sure when that was developed), under the Outerbridge, and up the industrial areas along the waterway between SI and NJ (known locally as Arthur Kills, with "kill" being a regional term for creek).

(3) When you combine a possible coastal/marsh burial with 44 years passing, you get a lot of decay, especially when you factor in the hurricanes that have impacted this area in just the last decade.

This is where my money is, BTW, even though I recognize other possibilities. Not on who, but where, and to me this is obvious, bc Staten Island was so remote at the time. A virtual murderer's paradise.

 

[Jmoose]

Hi, All —

Can't believe I am jumping back in after several years' time ‍ But HI!

I think there are so many problems in determining where, if dead, Sylvia might be. Looking only at the possibility of burial and forgetting about suicide, the ocean, and Hart Island for a moment:

(1) Her killer would have been ASSISTED by the fact that, AFAIK, there was never a formal search for her body (you don't look for a body when you don't recognize homicide or other type of death as possible, and only see a missing person — one that you prefer to think left of her own accord).

(2) When you look at SI in the late 1970s, so much more of it was undeveloped, but even then, smart money was on Fresh Kills landfill OR on the wider sections of undeveloped land along the coast to the south (now Conference House Park, but not sure when that was developed), under the Outerbridge, and up the industrial areas along the waterway between SI and NJ (known locally as Arthur Kills, with "kill" being a regional term for creek).

(3) When you combine a possible coastal/marsh burial with 44 years passing, you get a lot of decay, especially when you factor in the hurricanes that have impacted this area in just the last decade.

This is where my money is, BTW, even though I recognize other possibilities. Not on who, but where, and to me this is obvious, bc Staten Island was so remote at the time. A virtual murderer's paradise.

So happy to hear from you! I hope you are well

 

[GoingByMyGut]

This is the thing that actually brought me here today: I was watching a new Netflix documentary on the Long Island serial killer (ETA: Oops — it's actually on Amazon and is called "The Killing Season") , which has Websleuths at the heart of it. And they mentioned a new website called the Murder Accountability Project. It's a nonprofit that is working to collate data about murders (solved and unsolved, I think), mostly of women, across the country. Of course, unless she is a UID, this does not include SL, bc she is not recognized as a homicide. But the MAP does its work by entering data on solved and unsolved murders into a database — either info that LE makes public voluntarily (LE is not required to do this by law), or by taking LE in some cases to court for that info through the FOIA. Anyway, the point is, you can search the database by state, county, and local agency to get murder solve rates for different entities (1965-2017), and you can search cases by anonymous case details (1976-2017) to see patterns in the types of murder occurring in different geographic regions across time. And one of the things I noticed when trying to find info about Staten Island is that — assuming I was doing everything correctly — it is virtually impossible to drill down to SI using either of the tools. It made me wonder if SI is just too underfunded and understaffed to put anyone on that task, or whether the SIPD is among those not cooperating with the project.

Anyway, have a crack at it and see if you do any better than I could?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Thanks, JMoose. Same to you

 

[Jmoose]

This is the thing that actually brought me here today: I was watching a new Netflix documentary on the Long Island serial killer, which has Websleuths at the heart of it. And they mentioned a new website called the Murder Accountability Project. It's a nonprofit that is working to collate data about murders (maybe solved and unsolved), mostly of women, across the country. Of course, unless she is a UID, this does not include SL, bc she is not recognized as a homicide. But the MAP does its work by entering data on solved and unsolved murders into a database — either info that LE makes public voluntarily (LE is not required to do this by law), or by taking LE in some cases to court for that info through the FOIA. Anyway, the point is, you can search the database by state, county, and local agency to get murder solve rates for different entities (1965-2017), and you can search cases by anonymous case details (1976-2017) to see patterns in the types of murder occurring in different geographic regions across time. And one of the things I noticed when trying to find info about Staten Island is that — assuming I was doing everything correctly — it is virtually impossible to drill down to SI using either of the tools. It made me wonder if SI is just too underfunded and understaffed to put anyone on that task, or whether the SIPD is among those not cooperating with the project.

Anyway, have a crack at it and see if you do any better than I could?

Nice work-you’ve been missed!

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Nice work-you’ve been missed!

Thanks, JMoose. Looking forward to seeing if you and anyone else can do more than I could with it.

BTW, I said "Netflix" documentary (I will fix above), but it's actually an 8-part Amazon original documentary series called "The Killing Season."

 

[Jmoose]

Thanks, JMoose. Looking forward to seeing if you and anyone else can do more than I could with it.

BTW, I said "Netflix" documentary (I will fix above), but it's actually an 8-part Amazon original documentary series called "The Killing Season."

I haven’t watched that documentary yet; when I have time, I’ll have a look at it

 

[Jmoose]

Happy 66th birthday to Sylvia, who has been missing since 1975. Maybe someday we will know what happened to you the night you disappeared...was it suicide, crime of passion, accidental death and subsequent anonymous burial, or are you out there somewhere?

 

[rosemadderlake]

I think she is in PA or NJ...

Or SI landfill...

All of SI has been rebuilt.

Maybe the marsh and out to sea?

Maybe ditch the purse and over the bridge, and into the unnamed, unknowned... imo...

Hi gmbg!

 

[rosemadderlake]

if Sylvia were to be found on Staten Island, I think she would have been found by now...
She’s not on the island, imo...

 

[rosemadderlake]

Maybe OR... the closest thing to home...

Where was she going?

Home? School? Friend?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Hi gmbg!

Hiya, Rose

 

[emem1138]

Hi everyone. So this past Saturday my tummy sent me on a mission to Nathan's and Coney Island. Then to justify the cheese dog and cheese fries iwalked the boardwalk from close to Seagate to Brighton Beach.
And I got to wondering---what if Sylvia is on another Island, meaning Coney. Back then and until recently most of CI was a mess. The boardwalk had not been filled in and if youbhave seen The Warriors you know that there were all sorts of nooks and crannies. The basement under Nathan's is at sea level. which is why following Sandy they could not reopen for quite some time. In fact it had to be gutted both the main floor and the basement where their boilers etc. Were. The NYCHA housing along the boardwalk's basements are also at sea level I believe. I worked for Housing in CI in 2015 and they were flooded quite a bit.
So what I am getting at is over the years due to natural decay, and the improvements of the Coney Island Dev. Agency (i forget their actual name) much has been fixed, torn down, rebuilt etc. Anyone could have been stashed somewhere. Sadly

 

[rosemadderlake]

Thanks, JMoose. Looking forward to seeing if you and anyone else can do more than I could with it.

BTW, I said "Netflix" documentary (I will fix above), but it's actually an 8-part Amazon original documentary series called "The Killing Season."

I will check this out, too. Thanks for posting it, GBMG.

Looking at history, there was so much that went on in the 70’s that was just unmonitored, under the radar. And, the assumption of ‘run away’ might well have been known by someone who killed her. NYC was bankrupt with bare bones resources. And yes, Statin Island was practically a wilderness back then.

None of her possessions have been found that we know of. I thought of the impulsivity of youth and suicide but to insure no possessions are found takes some planning. And it doesn’t add up with the events leading up to and on that day shopping in the afternoon with her GF.

And as emem points out the coastal landscapes are constantly changing. Or, development could have happened where her remains went unnoticed.

There have been a few cold case discoveries recently, one on Statin Island (a male) that was over 40 years old. Another male was discovered in the woods but was more recent. And my heart sinks every time there is a discovery. It makes me think if she was murdered great care was undertaken to make sure she would not be found.

 

[Jmoose]

I will check this out, too. Thanks for posting it, GBMG.

Looking at history, there was so much that went on in the 70’s that was just unmonitored, under the radar. And, the assumption of ‘run away’ might well have been known by someone who killed her. NYC was bankrupt with bare bones resources. And yes, Statin Island was practically a wilderness back then.

None of her possessions have been found that we know of. I thought of the impulsivity of youth and suicide but to insure no possessions are found takes some planning. And it doesn’t add up with the events leading up to and on that day shopping in the afternoon with her GF.

And as emem points out the coastal landscapes are constantly changing. Or, development could have happened where her remains went unnoticed.

There have been a few cold case discoveries recently, one on Statin Island (a male) that was over 40 years old. Another male was discovered in the woods but was more recent. And my heart sinks every time there is a discovery. It makes me think if she was murdered great care was undertaken to make sure she would not be found.

It breaks my heart that her disappearance was assumed to be caused by running away-I am certain (without any evidence that says so) that the police in the precinct where her disappearance was reported, convinced her parents that she took off on her own. There would be many reasons for them to do so...in those days before “The Burning Bed”, domestic violence wasn’t as much of a focus; also, in more cases than not, people who disappear have been found later, alive. And, there may have been a combination of “we don’t have the resources for this, combined with “we don’t want these parents to be upset unnecessarily , if she is going to turn up later”. I don’t think she committed suicide and managed to hide both herself, and the stuff she had with her, as Rose has said. I think she was very well hidden, by somebody else. If she wasn’t incinerated somehow, I still think it is possible that her remains might be found, unless she already was, and was mistakenly interred on Hart Island.

 

[Gruffin]

Well, like I was saying, I think this case connected to the September 6, 1975, double-shooting murder/rape of Pamela Mayhew and Barbara Triplett near Statesville, NC, and the September 7, 1975, murder of Terry Cornell in Syracuse, NY.

If Lwowski was snatched prior to the movie, that would be close timewise to the 6:06pm anniversary of the September 6, 1943, wreck of the Congressional at Frankford Junction, PA (in North Philadelphia between Kensington and Port Richmond), which occurred on the anniversary of McKinley getting shot. And close by the movie theater was Richmond Hill Road, on the possible route to the movie theater. The 1950 Richmond Hill (or Kew Gardens) train wreck killed one less than the Congressional wreck, and JFK was killed on its anniversary. If in her argument with her boyfriend Port Richmond (where Lwowski's boyfriend lived) or Frankfurt (which sounds like Frankford) had been mentioned, and if the killer(s) had overheard that...

Y'all and many others may have noticed somewhere (I had noticed it long before I began thinking much about murders) that Titanic hit the iceberg on the anniversary of Abe Lincoln getting shot. It would have been extra reckless to murder about this coincidence--insufficiently obscure. James Garfield? The Semet-Solvay Company's munitions plant outside Syracuse, NY, exploded (50+ dead) 37 years to the day after Garfield was shot in DC.

Cornell was last seen alive on Glenwood Avenue, and there's a Glenwood Avenue that runs along next to the Congressional wreck site. Edna Christine Thorne was last seen near the site of this wreck on June 24, 1975, the same day windshear got Flight 66 on approach to JFK.

Cornell was walking from a bar on Route 175. It was westbound train 175 that got sideswiped in the 1950 Rockville Centre, NY, wreck that presaged the Richmond Hill wreck later that year on the same railroad.

After much looking at Google Maps, I'm pretty sure the murder scene of Mayhew is near a Houston Road. The Gulf Hotel Fire in Houston happened the day after the Congressional Wreck, and Congress Street borders the block the hotel sat on (but not in front). The murder scene is not actually in Statesville, but closer to Shinnville, Barringer Township. Shinnston, WV, was devastated by the only strong tornado outbreak in West Virginia history on June 23, 1944, and Thorne's abduction almost aligns with an anniversary of that. The same tornado sequence that hit Shinnston also spawned a twister that killed six or so in tiny Dry Tavern, Pennsylvania, whence Debra Lynne Makel came on her school bus shortly before she was abducted/murdered upon arriving home on October 5, 1973. On August 27, 1891, a train wreck on a bridge over Third Creek in Statesville killed 27. Triplett and Mayhew were snatched while crossing a bridge over Fourth Creek in Statesville.

Triplett recalled that the abduction vehicle was blue with bucket seats, gear shift on the steering column. A dark blue 2-door car is mentioned in connection with the Cornell case.

Perhaps spooky things are scary at least partly because we've evolved to find them so on account of spooky things being a sort of things some people may murder about.

 

[Ozoner]

Well, like I was saying, I think this case connected to the September 6, 1975, double-shooting murder/rape of Pamela Mayhew and Barbara Triplett near Statesville, NC, and the September 7, 1975, murder of Terry Cornell in Syracuse, NY.

If Lwowski was snatched prior to the movie, that would be close timewise to the 6:06pm anniversary of the September 6, 1943, wreck of the Congressional at Frankford Junction, PA (in North Philadelphia between Kensington and Port Richmond), which occurred on the anniversary of McKinley getting shot. And close by the movie theater was Richmond Hill Road, on the possible route to the movie theater. The 1950 Richmond Hill (or Kew Gardens) train wreck killed one less than the Congressional wreck, and JFK was killed on its anniversary. If in her argument with her boyfriend Port Richmond (where Lwowski's boyfriend lived) or Frankfurt (which sounds like Frankford) had been mentioned, and if the killer(s) had overheard that...

Y'all and many others may have noticed somewhere (I had noticed it long before I began thinking much about murders) that Titanic hit the iceberg on the anniversary of Abe Lincoln getting shot. It would have been extra reckless to murder about this coincidence--insufficiently obscure. James Garfield? The Semet-Solvay Company's munitions plant outside Syracuse, NY, exploded (50+ dead) 37 years to the day after Garfield was shot in DC.

Cornell was last seen alive on Glenwood Avenue, and there's a Glenwood Avenue that runs along next to the Congressional wreck site. Edna Christine Thorne was last seen near the site of this wreck on June 24, 1975, the same day windshear got Flight 66 on approach to JFK.

Cornell was walking from a bar on Route 175. It was westbound train 175 that got sideswiped in the 1950 Rockville Centre, NY, wreck that presaged the Richmond Hill wreck later that year on the same railroad.

After much looking at Google Maps, I'm pretty sure the murder scene of Mayhew is near a Houston Road. The Gulf Hotel Fire in Houston happened the day after the Congressional Wreck, and Congress Street borders the block the hotel sat on (but not in front). The murder scene is not actually in Statesville, but closer to Shinnville, Barringer Township. Shinnston, WV, was devastated by the only strong tornado outbreak in West Virginia history on June 23, 1944, and Thorne's abduction almost aligns with an anniversary of that. The same tornado sequence that hit Shinnston also spawned a twister that killed six or so in tiny Dry Tavern, Pennsylvania, whence Debra Lynne Makel came on her school bus shortly before she was abducted/murdered upon arriving home on October 5, 1973. On August 27, 1891, a train wreck on a bridge over Third Creek in Statesville killed 27. Triplett and Mayhew were snatched while crossing a bridge over Fourth Creek in Statesville.

Triplett recalled that the abduction vehicle was blue with bucket seats, gear shift on the steering column. A dark blue 2-door car is mentioned in connection with the Cornell case.

Perhaps spooky things are scary at least partly because we've evolved to find them so on account of spooky things being a sort of things some people may murder about.

I have to disagree about the connection. I believe that the other cases were committed by strangers; I believe that Sylvia was murdered by someone known to her.

 

[Jmoose]

I have to disagree about the connection. I believe that the other cases were committed by strangers; I believe that Sylvia was murdered by someone known to her.

I agree-and, she could not have been grabbed before the movie, because her boyfriend said they did go to the movie (even if they didn’t, in fact, go to a movie, she was with him by his own word later than the start time of said movie).

 

[Gruffin]

... she could not have been grabbed before the movie, because her boyfriend said they did go to the movie (even if they didn’t, in fact, go to a movie, she was with him by his own word later than the start time of said movie).

What is the reference for this information? I can't find a reference anywhere that indicates the boyfriend said they saw a movie, only that Lwowski left her home with her boyfriend to see a movie and that she disappeared near the movie theater (after an argument). The 2013 SILive.com article doesn't even know what movie she was going to. The police report indicates she was last seen at 6pm (six minutes before the anniversary of the 1943 Congressional wreck). Maybe the 6pm time is when SL's boyfriend claimed to have last seen her? Her brother indicates SL's boyfriend came to pick her up at around 5pm.

 

[Jmoose]

What is the reference for this information? I can't find a reference anywhere that indicates the boyfriend said they saw a movie, only that Lwowski left her home with her boyfriend to see a movie and that she disappeared near the movie theater (after an argument). The 2013 SILive.com article doesn't even know what movie she was going to. The police report indicates she was last seen at 6pm (six minutes before the anniversary of the 1943 Congressional wreck). Maybe the 6pm time is when SL's boyfriend claimed to have last seen her? Her brother indicates SL's boyfriend came to pick her up at around 5pm.

The boyfriend (fiance, actually) and Sylvia said they were going to a movie. I don’t actually think it matters whether they did or did not. Maybe they went to a motel, for all we know. My point was that he didn’t say she got out of the car after a fight at 6pm; he said it was later, and then he drove by Sylvia’s friend’s home to ask her to go out and drive to the bus stop on the road where she supposedly got out of his car to look for her. This is according to Sylvia’s friend, who stated this in one of the earliest threads. It was dark at this time. That’s why I said she couldn’t have been abducted early. I think the last time seen (~6 pm) is what her parents told the police. The boyfriend was never questioned.