Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[rosesfromangels]

Dwelling on all the comments about BG moving about quickly...

He certainly was agile traversing the rickety bridge, 70? Feet up; seemingly toting gear at the same time. Then, corralling two teens fighting ? For their lives. He seemed to be someone comfortable with heights and gear, like a utility worker, tree person, or such. Containing the girls speaks to military or security training.
So a tree trimming security guard. Not much of a profile! Back to the white board...

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Cutiekitty]

I think a lot of the time serial killers -- and some criminals -- are just very good at masking themselves and playing at "being normal".

Sociopaths in particular seem to have either the knack or developed necessity of learning how to function unobtrusively in society. Ted Bundy is one example of that. So is Dennis Rader. Jack the Ripper was probably a very nondescript, ordinary, regular looking fellow living completely under the radar in Whitechapel. I think in hindsight, when killers are caught, that people around them start remembering things that were 'off'. We tend to see things in the past more clearly through the prism of new context and knowledge, if that makes sense.

I wouldn't presume to say definitively if the Delphi offender is a serial killer, but I don't rule it out. If he is a serial killer, I tend to think this is either his first or one of his first murders.

Oh, I agree and what I bolded is what I was getting at.

Most criminals aren’t walking around in obvious menace mode, but I don’t think they can keep up that veneer all of the time which is why we see reports of previous odd behavior after the fact. People see it, but can’t define what they are seeing.

There isn’t enough out there to state if BG is a serial killer or not, but my vibe is BG is not a serial killer.

 

[Charlot123]

On the other hand, my other POI is likely not religious AT ALL. So... I wonder.

A person coming from a family of believers can play a believer, and yet have lost faith long time ago. Or be in the crisis of faith. In fact, this very crisis might play the role in the murder, as the form of inner rebellion. I believe other, more significant, contributors, could be *advertiser censored* addiction and sexual dysfunction. JMO.

But with the faith, I think it is high tide-low tide with the BG. A truly religious person must know there is no salvation after such a sin, so it was probably his “disbeliever’s” phase when he did it. Yet Carter, knowing more than us, underscored religion, leading me to think he believes the person is a believer.

 

[Charlot123]

Oh, I agree and what I bolded is what I was getting at.

Most criminals aren’t walking around in obvious menace mode, but I don’t think they can keep up that veneer all of the time which is why we see reports of previous odd behavior after the fact. People see it, but can’t define what they are seeing.

There isn’t enough out there to state if BG is a serial killer or not, but my vibe is BG is not a serial killer.

He probably has some history of violence or rape, but is not a systematic SK. I am beginning to think he is not, but has high potential.

 

[Charlot123]

A definite possibility. As a side note, your possible scenario was a horrific reality in the following case:

- The perpetrators were bored and idle young surfer type dudes who were non violent and selling marijuana in the "joint to a pound" range to friends, family and aquantiances. They get into a dispute with a customer over a $900 or so drug debt.

- The leader makes a very impulsive decision to kidnap the younger brother. The vague goal is to use him as leverage to collect the $900 from big brother. Though the victim is technically a hostage, he is taken to a series of parties and given marijuana, food, introduced to girls etc.

- One thing leads to another and out of fears of being charged with kidnapping, the gang leader orders the 15 year old hostage executed. One of the previously non violent surfer dude underlings carries out the order.

Murder of Nicholas Markowitz - Wikipedia

This same basis scenario of non threatening perpetrator(s), a "snowballing crime", a complex motive and with a vague or impulsive initiating circumstancel could also serve as the motivation for these murders as well.

Thank you for this interesting story.

Drugs do things to human brain, especially stimulants prepared under poor quality control.

However, with the drug dealer POI, something does not pan out. I feel he is a macho type and while fights would be typical for him, a sexualized attack on teenagers, 13 and 14, seems to be out of style. Abducting an adult child of a debtor? Surely. Two teenagers? A little bit out of character. JMO.

Plus, I have once seen a habitual consumer of that stuff so high that the guy attacked a downtown bus. But planning, with leaving so little traces? Only if he was super lucky. JMO - the perp was clean and sober.

 

[Charlot123]

S and BBM

This I have never understood. Makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Several members of my family have blue eyes. If I’m sitting across the table from them and the others who do not have blue eyes, I cannot tell a huge difference unless I get closer. Point being that I’m either close enough to see their eye color or I’m not.

There are just far too many shades of blue to discount blue eyes unless one can discern the actual eye color.

That witness comment will never make any sense to me. And at this stage, it’s actually beyond that- the comment has started to stand out to me as downright bizarre and out of place. MOO.

Agree. I wonder if the eyes were green. Green eyes, a mixture of grey and light brown, may look different in different lights. I wonder if all he saw was that the eyes were not “light blue”.

 

[CelticIre]

I don’t think they can keep up that veneer all of the time which is why we see reports of previous odd behavior after the fact. People see it, but can’t define what they are seeing.

I think that's an excellent way to put it.

 

[CelticIre]

DBM - double post.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Until LE releases a good bit more information this case is going nowhere. It is obvious they need the public’s help. They need to let us help them. Just my opinion.

 

[crhedBngr]

I personally think that is unlikely with Abigail and Liberty being normal teenage girls. I don’t think monster is an influential person or he was someone ordered to do a hit job on them. I think he may have been a flasher and things got really bad real quick. He may have realised they were witnesses who could identify him and he could lose everything like his marriage and his job and he didn’t want that.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

JMVHO.

 

[Michigan]

I now believe the crime was planned but the victims were not planned (I.e. the killer wanted to commit the crime and planned it but the girls happened to be the ones who walked into his trap). I believe this guy is a predator who fantasized about the crime. He had a spot staked out, the gear prepped to conduct the crime, and he went into those woods along that trail and those poor girls, sadly, were the ones who showed up.

However what does not make sense to me is the timing. If you were trolling for little girl victims on a weekday in those woods, wouldn’t you be there later in the day after school let out? It makes me wonder if he is somehow connected to the school system and so knew the unusual schedule for that day. A bus driver?

I also think they have DNA and just don’t have a match. Have they ever asked for volunteer swabs of community residents?

All MOO

 

[Rosegold68]

I now believe the crime was planned but the victims were not planned (I.e. the killer wanted to commit the crime and planned it but the girls happened to be the ones who walked into his trap). I believe this guy is a predator who fantasized about the crime. He had a spot staked out, the gear prepped to conduct the crime, and he went into those woods along that trail and those poor girls, sadly, were the ones who showed up.

However what does not make sense to me is the timing. If you were trolling for little girl victims on a weekday in those woods, wouldn’t you be there later in the day after school let out? It makes me wonder if he is somehow connected to the school system and so knew the unusual schedule for that day. A bus driver?

I also think they have DNA and just don’t have a match. Have they ever asked for volunteer swabs of community residents?

All MOO

school wasn't on on that particular day though

 

[Jax49]

I now believe the crime was planned but the victims were not planned (I.e. the killer wanted to commit the crime and planned it but the girls happened to be the ones who walked into his trap). I believe this guy is a predator who fantasized about the crime. He had a spot staked out, the gear prepped to conduct the crime, and he went into those woods along that trail and those poor girls, sadly, were the ones who showed up.

However what does not make sense to me is the timing. If you were trolling for little girl victims on a weekday in those woods, wouldn’t you be there later in the day after school let out? It makes me wonder if he is somehow connected to the school system and so knew the unusual schedule for that day. A bus driver?

I also think they have DNA and just don’t have a match. Have they ever asked for volunteer swabs of community residents?

All MOO

IIRC, there was a sign in front of the school announcing no school on Friday and Monday. No request for volunteer DNA that we're aware of, but it has been reported that they have taken DNA from people they were interested in.

 

[Michigan]

school wasn't on on that particular day though

Yes I know. If he’s a random guy how does he know school is out is my point. Your average person is going to assume it’s a school day. Unless it was widely reported or the guy has kids himself or he works for the school system. Moo

 

[Michigan]

IIRC, there was a sign in front of the school announcing no school on Friday and Monday. No request for volunteer DNA that we're aware of, but it has been reported that they have taken DNA from people they were interested in.

Interesting. I didn’t know about the sign!

 

[Jax49]

Interesting. I didn’t know about the sign!

Wish I had a link/image but I do remember us discussing it. We were wondering the same thing and someone local mentioned it, IIRC.

 

[tresir2012]

I wonder about the "getting around quickly."
Police having a theory know where he was at A time and then B time, and that is a lot more info than I thought they had.
I suppose they know when he was killing the girls for TOD and various constraining factors, but that they know something about where he was after, and the B time/place being interpreted by the police as meaning BG had local knowledge.

If the vehicle leaving CPS was really BG leaving, and he could have left as late at 5pm, that is very creepy.
I assume that means the fiend was waiting in the woods for a gap between searchers to sneak his way back to the car.

On the bridge at 2.30 p.m. (LE billboard source), seen leaving by FSG at 2.47 p.m. (GH source) are two of the timings being mentioned. MOO

 

[tresir2012]

Thought this might be useful as so many of us have been discussing it.

RTV6 why are the sketches so different?

 

[TheSecondLaw]

I still cannot reconcile the imagery of the suspect on the bridge with the newer, younger sketch.

Whether LE have good authority and intel to pivot towards a younger suspect or are clutching at straws and have made a misstep, we probably won't know until this case is cracked.

 

[TL4S]

I'm back near where I started.

Scenario:
BG is driving west on W 300 N and sees two girls dropped off. He goes around the bend and parks at the CPS building, then gets on the trail to catch up and follow them. (Alternately, he's already on the trail) The girls start over the bridge, and eventually, so does he.

This is where I break off into two ideas. I'll go with the one that puts BG with the girls the least amount of time. The girls decided to wait around under the bridge in the wooded area for BG to recross and be gone. He does recross, but is still yelling down to them, or is stopping and watching, or otherwise acting strangely. At this point they basically have no choice but to either go back via the bridge where the weird guy is, or cross the creek to get back to their ride. I think they cross the creek.

BG gets to the north end of the bridge, checks for people coming, and goes off into the woods to corner the girls. He gets to them up the hill from where they were found, orders them back "down the hill." From here I'm guessing things get very rough, very quickly, and is over in a matter of a few minutes.

(The alternate scenarios, in my mind, are that they all cross back over the bridge (various possible ways), he orders them into the woods on the north end, and marches them to the location he killed them. Or, he waits around on the trail and the girls try to avoid him by going through the woods, but he corners them). These are my secondary options only because it puts BG with the girls for a longer extent of time.

Again, I have multiple ideas on how BG gets back to his vehicle. Either he walks the woods/trail and gets there, but has a problem (as I posted yesterday with the car key scenario), or there are now people on the trail when he's in the woods coming back, so he hides out for awhile (or takes a different route) and doesn't get to his car until much later.

I think in the encounter, BG's hat gets knocked off, which in turn drops shed reddish brown hair. He doesn't leave the hat, but the hairs are left behind. If the hat is his, they're probably his hair. If it's not his hat, it could be the owner's hair.

I also think the YBG witness saw something related to either the vehicle or the CPS lot (or both).

Just tossing around ideas.