CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #6

[kay74]

While we've talked a lot of this case into the ground, this is a great question that we haven't pondered. Would be great if LE knew this and had mentioned it. Frankly, I don't think they're treating this case remotely like an abduction (and never have) which leads me to believe that LE has info that tells them something else happened.

If she took them off while hiking, those clothes would have been in RT's pack (surely, they wouldn't have abandoned her clothing? If so, were they both feeling a bit overwhelmed by their hike choice?)

If she took them off while hiking, having intended to hike in clothes with more sun protection, that's another clue that she might have already been in the throes of heat exhaustion. It's also a good indicator that she intended to go directly to the RV, as who would continue to wander around in their underwear? Why not at least grab your shirt if you were going to walk near a road?

This points to heat exhaustion, to me (including the fact that she may have fainted and therefore not heard RT at all).



Such a good post. Here's why we haven't taken Kelbaker in the past few years: we no longer feel safe out there. Can't say why, exactly. Someone tried to run us off the road in a similar location, there were other cars going by with some regularity - but the person followed us and we felt really isolated.

My experience of being within 100 miles of Vegas on any of its approach routes is that there are way more people drinking and driving. And people use Kelbaker if they want to drink and drive, because there are virtually no patrols by LE. It's on federal land, SBCS doesn't patrol regularly, there are no cameras, there are no park rangers, there's not even a full time visitor center. Mojave Preserve has become popular (and people do day trips to it from Vegas, which mystifies me, but it's true). Kelso Depot is sort of the main destination and Kelbaker leads directly to it from the I-40 - so traffic in both directions, but more traffic heading north...to Vegas. People also drive super fast on Kelbaker.

Having seen what appear to be impaired drivers within the Mojave Preserve on several occasions, we just don't do it any more. In fact, we don't do Vegas any more (gettin' too old, I guess). Forums devoted to the Vegas/desert lifestyle, though (and my many friends and relatives who have decided to retire out that way) find it attractive.

The crime rates in the towns surrounding Mojave Preserve and Mojave Trails NM are just too high for my current liking. I would be uncomfortable leaving my car parked anywhere unattended, except a place where others were coming and going frequently (even then, I don't want to have a vacation ruined by a broken window).



Well, unless people with drones and ATV's are going to go out and look for her body. They might want some clues as to what they're looking for. SAR members frequently go back (again and again) to look, if the scene is bothering them as much as this is bothering us. That's how the dead Germans were found in Death Valley.

The bikini or bra would last longer as a form of identification than other aspects of her body. Anyone who was looking for her and found skeletal remains would almost certainly also find the metal from the bikini top and probably more of it than just that (especially this winter, when more hikers will be out there). There are missing posters of her up, now, and people really do look at them.

Not that any LE would ignore a body, with or without its clothing, but anyone coming across a body in the next year would find clothing remnants, so they'd know it wasn't an ancient skeleton (because people decide to keep/steal ancient skeletons if they think they can get away with it).

BBM WOW! Now its got me thinking this beautiful new RV and beautiful truck were sitting in this remote area on Kelbaker road tempting anyone criminalistic that rides by and BT approaches it just as they were there and then could have killed her and taken her with them. I find it very scary to be a woman walking in this remote area to my beautiful new RV and truck. I think someone was fooling around by their vehicles and its in a big turnoff so they wouldn't bother anyone on the road whizzing by!

 

[PommyMommy]

Very good points - in which case the Sheriff has posted misleading information on their missing persons report to the State. And I don't think anyone has posted this to NAMUS yet.

It's vitally important for the details to be correct. Of all the things she was wearing, the hat was the most colorful/visible. To me, the one in the picture looks predominately red, to the point that describing it as white...is very odd.

You don't think anyone has posted what to NamUs? MOO

 

[GordianKnot]

In LE's defense, if they had good info about the case from closer to when BT was said to disappeared, they might've regarded tracking her movements earlier in the day as a slightly lower priority. But I do think that the timing of events earlier that day as well as her demeanor at the kennel may ultimately prove to be important. JMO

RSABBM:

I agree with this statement.
I think LE (correctly) had an immediate, laser focus on searching the area from which she was reported missing.

Since LE found no evidence or trace of her after having scoured that locale for 9 days, and with her case having been transferred to the Special Investigations Division, it's my expectation that the detective(s) now working the case will likely have begun working their way further back on the timeline of her/their movements that day as well as further afield in terms of who she spoke/interacted with earlier that day also.

If LE does not make contact with the kennel staff at any point, that will be a huge oversight on their part.

According to our VI, @dbdb11, the kennel staff have described BT as seeming agitated/angry and not having been her usual self when she dropped her dog off.

For all anyone knows, BT may have made a comment to one of them indicating why/what she was feeling agitated about that morning.

BT's state of mind heading off into the desert that day may be relevant for a number of reasons.

JMO.

 

[Cherwell]

What Barbara was wearing only matters if someone happens to remember seeing her that day in the described attire. So far, no one has come forward. If Barbara is still alive, I guarantee that she is no longer dressed only in a bikini/underwear. If she is deceased, identification will not depend on what she was wearing. So I’m not too concerned about the discrepancies in reporting.JMO

BIB
We don't know that, do we?

 

[10ofRods]

BBM WOW! Now its got me thinking this beautiful new RV and beautiful truck were sitting in this remote area on Kelbaker road tempting anyone criminalistic that rides by and BT approaches it just as they were there and then could have killed her and taken her with them. I find it very scary to be a woman walking in this remote area to my beautiful new RV and truck. I think someone was fooling around by their vehicles and its in a turnoff so they wouldn't bother anyone on the road whizzing by!

It's possible. If someone was keeping lookout, they would have seen RT approaching and then taken off (having not been told where the key was or having not had time to break into the RV). But why would they take Barbara and up the ante on their planned theft?

I think it's really unlikely. When we lived in a similar area, robbers would perch on higher elevations and watch people go on hikes - they knew how long they'd be gone, more or less, then they'd do smash and grab. This still happens all over California at hiking trails. It happens to houses too. Perps use binoculars, they know where people are going and how long it's going to take. The thieves work in groups, too, with a look-out. There's cell service at Kelbaker, so it's an easy mark.

But killing someone? And then taking the body in their own vehicle? That would be world's dumbest robber. But since we know that some robbers turn into rapists when opportunity presents, it's a possibility (with a tiny window of time for it to take place and leaving absolutely no evidence that police could find...of course...there are no cameras for them to check who drove by).

No one whizzing by on the road would notice if creeps were hanging around the RV for whatever reason.

 

[GordianKnot]

I see your point completely.

My concern about discrepancies and unnecessary details speak more to my thoughts about others.

The discrepancies matter.

The discrepancies matter because it means the "facts" are changing.

A "red hat" and a "white hat" are vastly different.
It's not as if it's being described in one instance as tan and another as beige.
These aren't nuances we're talking.

I think the difference b/t a "black bikini" and "a black bra and underwear" is also huge.
For those who think otherwise, I invite you to wear a black bra and underwear to the beach.
Observe the difference in the reactions you get...before you're arrested, I mean.
RT was most insistent that BT "WAS wearing a bikini."
So, how did a black bikini turn into black bra, underwear and tall black socks?

I don't know any women who walk around outside in their underwear.
A bikini, yes.
Underwear, no.

Who made that change in the clothing description, and why?

What accounts for the discrepancies?

Words matter.

Then there are the discrepancies in time r/t what time they took their walk, when RT called 911, etc.
Times definitely matter.
We know that 911 call came in to dispatch at 3:26 pm.
That's one of the few "facts" we know that can't be changed.

So we have at least one fixed point of reference.

Everything else seems to be pretty open to "interpretation."

JMO.

 

[LietKynes]

Great post, @GordianKnot.
Esp. about the timeline discrepancy.

Not that the diff. between a red and white hat isn't important by any means.
B/c people were looking for a (possibly) discarded/dropped while running ... RED hat.
Now it's white ?
That seems like a misleading tip; whether accidental or not.

And we don't know for sure if they were even out there at noon.
Only that someone said they told their relative they had called 911 at noon.
Except it was 3:26.
Who makes an error like that ?
Nothing about Barbara or anyone else makes me think we're dealing with idiots.
More like well-traveled and competent, intelligent people.
Outside of the 3:26 911 call -- we really can't pinpoint anything.

This has to be so sad for Barbara's family.
LE would get tired of my constant calls and pestering if I were in her families' shoes.
Eta. corrected

 

[al66pine]

Was RT Questioned for 5 hours by LE?

.... According to our VI, RT was questioned for 5 hours by LE on the day Barbara disappeared.

@Tillicum Thanks for your post. ^sbm Link pls re @dbdb11 posting - RT was "questioned for 5 hours by LE on the day Barbara disappeared." Thx in adv.

Here's what I saw in VI's excellent early-days, looong post quoting lonooong text (?) about RTs call to other fam member: "...he was even held for 5hrs in a cop car on the first day..." Nothing about being questioned/interviewed/interrogated for 5 hours.

After getting RT's initial info, I imagine LE did pose some further questions at least intermittently but doubt he was grilled relentlessly for 5 hours. Jmo, could be wrong.

 

[GordianKnot]

Great post, @GordianKnot.
Esp. the the timeline.

Not that the diff. between a red and white hat isn't important by any means.
B/c people were looking for a (possibly) discarded/dropped while running RED hat.
Now it's white ?
That seems like a misleading tip; whether accidental or not.

And we don't know for sure if they were even out there at noon.
Only that someone said they told their relative they had called 911 at noon.
Except it was 3:26.
Who makes an error like that ?
Nothing about Barbara or anyone else makes me think we're dealing with idiots.
More like well-traveled and competent, intelligent people.
Outside of the 3:26 911 call -- we really can't pinpoint anything.

This has to be so sad for Barbara's family.
LE would get tired of my constant calls and pestering if I were in her families' shoes.

The time discrepancies bother me hugely.

The difference b/t "noon" and "3:26" pm is not incidental.

It is nearly 3.5 hours.

Now, I ain't no mathematician, but by my calculations, if you were converting the time difference into, say, a distance measurement, a vehicle traveling 60 mph could travel roughly 210 miles in that amount of time.

That's a gaping hole in the timeline, not a small discrepancy.

JMO.

 

[Tillicum]

Was RT Questioned for 5 hours by LE?

@Tillicum Thanks for your post. ^sbm Link pls re @dbdb11 posting - RT was "questioned for 5 hours by LE on the day Barbara disappeared." Thx in adv.

Here's what I saw in VI's excellent early-days, looong post quoting lonooong text (?) about RTs call to other fam member: "...he was even held for 5hrs in a cop car on the first day..." Nothing about being questioned/interviewed/interrogated for 5 hours.

After getting RT's initial info, I imagine LE did pose some further questions at least intermittently but doubt he was grilled relentlessly for 5 hours. Jmo, could be wrong.

Yes that's what I was referring to. Too late to edit my post. IMO they were questioning him most of that time but not confirmed by our VI. If not questioning him, what do you suppose they were doing with him for 5 hours?

 

[CSIDreamer]

Yes that's what I was referring to. Too late to edit my post. IMO they were questioning him most of that time but not confirmed by our VI. If not questioning him, what do you suppose they were doing with him for 5 hours?

And why confine him to a car? He could have sheltered in his own truck/5th wheel to cool off.

 

[LAhiker]

Yes that's what I was referring to. Too late to edit my post. IMO they were questioning him most of that time but not confirmed by our VI. If not questioning him, what do you suppose they were doing with him for 5 hours?

Maybe keeping him out of the way, so they could do their normal search things unimpeded? (And maybe take a peek into his truck and RV unobserved, though maybe they'd need permission to do that.) If the truck/RV were where he called from and where he said BT was heading to when she disappeared, LE might want to keep the vehicles in place for a while. It may be standard procedure to preserve what may turn out to be part of a crime scene from any changes.

I don't know when they released the vehicles back to RT and whether he drove home that night in the truck or was driven back by LE. JMO

 

[Tillicum]

And why confine him to a car? He could have sheltered in his own truck/5th wheel to cool off.

And... we're assuming everything RT told the family is true.

 

[al66pine]

What doing for 5 hours in LE Cruiser?

Yes that's what I was referring to. Too late to edit my post. IMO they were questioning him most of that time but not confirmed by our VI. If not questioning him, what do you suppose they were doing with him for 5 hours?

@Tillicum Thx for your post.
From LE perspective -
-Is RT mentally, physically, emotionally stable? LE does not know.
- Is he involved in causing BT to disappear? LE does not know.
They can let him sit in LE vehicle, as a better alternative to the below.

- If LE lets him sit in own truck,
------what if RT suffers heat stroke/heat exhaustion/heart attack other med event? Then RT cannot answer new questions, clarify further info, etc. And LE & med ppl have to deal w his med issues, take to hosp. So instead keep him in LE vehicle w a/c.
------If LE lets him sit in own truck, what if RT gets gun or other weapon out, and threatens, actually tries to use, or well, who knows what?
------If LE lets him sit in own RV, w or w'out a/c running, same as above re poss med events or weapon.
----If LE lets him sit outside, same as ^ re poss med issues.
--- If LE allows him to be outside of own or LE vehicles, seems poss/likely he would want to talk w, question, LE & SAR, meaning essentially deter/distract them from doing their jobs.

IMO, initially LE got some info from him, then started their protocol and did not interrogate him for 5 hours nonstop in cruiser.

 

[al66pine]

Did LE 'Sweat' RT in LE Cruiser?

And why confine him to a car? He could have sheltered in his own truck/5th wheel to cool off.

@CSIDreamer Thx for your post.
See my post a few a bit upthread/5 min ago about why LE might have wanted him to sit in LE cruiser, instead of truck or 5th wheel.
Also, who is saying LE cruiser did not have a/c running? May, may not, IDK.

 

[al66pine]

LE Release of RT's Vehicles?

Maybe keeping him out of the way, so they could do their normal search things unimpeded? (And maybe take a peek into his truck and RV unobserved, though maybe they'd need permission to do that.) If the truck/RV were where he called from and where he said BT was heading to when she disappeared, LE might want to keep the vehicles in place for a while. It may be standard procedure to preserve what may turn out to be part of a crime scene from any changes.
I don't know when they released the vehicles back to RT and whether he drove home that night in the truck or was driven back by LE. JMO

@LAhiker Thx for post.
Agreeing w you re LE keeping RT out from underfoot, after LE got basic info from RT and while LE and SAR did their work.

New subject: Are you saying after RT called MisPers and before LE arrived, that RT moved truck & 5th wheel? Link pls? If so, I missed that entirely, but entirely possible.

New subject: Phrase ^ 'release the vehicles" makes me think LE got search warrant on first day? Did they?
Did LE also polygraph RT the first day?
Thx in adv.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Did LE 'Sweat' RT in LE Cruiser?

@CSIDreamer Thx for your post.
See my post a few a bit upthread/5 min ago about why LE might have wanted him to sit in LE cruiser, instead of truck or 5th wheel.
Also, who is saying LE cruiser did not have a/c running? May, may not, IDK.

I assume the a/c was running. Otherwise, he would probably be dead.

ETA: I have literally no idea who said the cruiser didn't have the A/C running.

 

[LietKynes]

Maybe keeping him out of the way, so they could do their normal search things unimpeded? (And maybe take a peek into his truck and RV unobserved, though maybe they'd need permission to do that.) If the truck/RV were where he called from and where he said BT was heading to when she disappeared, LE might want to keep the vehicles in place for a while. It may be standard procedure to preserve what may turn out to be part of a crime scene from any changes.

I don't know when they released the vehicles back to RT and whether he drove home that night in the truck or was driven back by LE. JMO

BBM

Remember when the VI said that RT had told his family (RT's family-- not Barbara's family), that LE were "...all over the place, messing up the crime scene..." (paraphrased by me) ?
In the initial phone calls that were eventually relayed to the VI.
Odd words even now -- over a month later.
Barbara is still officially missing and this is a rescue mission -- not a recovery.

 

[k-mac]

What doing for 5 hours in LE Cruiser?

@Tillicum Thx for your post.
From LE perspective -
-Is RT mentally, physically, emotionally stable? LE does not know.
- Is he involved in causing BT to disappear? LE does not know.
They can let him sit in LE vehicle, as a better alternative to the below.

- If LE lets him sit in own truck,
------what if RT suffers heat stroke/heat exhaustion/heart attack other med event? Then RT cannot answer new questions, clarify further info, etc. And LE & med ppl have to deal w his med issues, take to hosp. So instead keep him in LE vehicle w a/c.
------If LE lets him sit in own truck, what if RT gets gun or other weapon out, and threatens, actually tries to use, or well, who knows what?
------If LE lets him sit in own RV, w or w'out a/c running, same as above re poss med events or weapon.
----If LE lets him sit outside, same as ^ re poss med issues.
--- If LE allows him to be outside of own or LE vehicles, seems poss/likely he would want to talk w, question, LE & SAR, meaning essentially deter/distract them from doing their jobs.

IMO, initially LE got some info from him, then started their protocol and did not interrogate him for 5 hours nonstop in cruiser.

agree totally the correct procedure
ive seen police reports.
they are very good at observation and documenting it.
keeping him in a safe uncompromised place watching and listening .
those hours are the most critical.
5 hours would tell them a lot about RT.

imo

 

[LietKynes]

LE Release of RT's Vehicles?


@LAhiker Thx for post.
Agreeing w you re LE keeping RT out from underfoot, after LE got basic info from RT and while LE and SAR did their work.

New subject: Are you saying after RT called MisPers and before LE arrived, that RT moved truck & 5th wheel? Link pls? If so, I missed that entirely, but entirely possible.

New subject: Phrase ^ 'release the vehicles" makes me think LE got search warrant on first day? Did they?
Did LE also polygraph RT the first day?
Thx in adv.

Blue bolding mine

Good question.
Inquiring minds want to know.

Since RT was adamant that someone had abducted her as she crossed that highway to get to the RV --- maybe LE felt it prudent to at least search the fifth wheel and truck, as the kidnappers could've left evidence.

Since LE went with that scenario initially.
Later amended it to 'no evidence of a kidnapping'.