CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #7

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It was 91 today where I live and I am several decades younger than Barb and STILL thought I would die of heat stroke after 2 minutes walking in the sun at 1-3pm. It sounds like perfect conditions for a 69 year young woman to perish. Remains are exceedingly difficult to see in a desert/rocky terrain until they bleach (9 mos or so).

But the searchers didn't find a single trace.
The dogs didn't smell her in optimal conditions.
No mention of buzzards or ravens.
No clothing, no cup.

If she is around there, I have to believe she is under rocks, buried or obscured in the creekbed.
I truly hope they can search again with some good dogs in the coming months as it cools off. And I hope they got a warrant for the house and the camper.
 
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dbdb11 said:
It was around this thread that I personally concluded Barbara did not get lost in the desert.

The clues aren't even in the desert. They're in televised interviews, statements of relevant law enforcement, and in decades past.

If playing through scenarios of Barb getting lost keeps this thread alive I can't be opposed to it.

Where are you Robert? Where is Barbara?


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There is obviously further information that you feel you cannot share on the thread. Are you able to share what steps your family has taken to locate Barbara? Is there anything we can do collectively here (i have asked before)? Could we crowd fund some searches maybe? Contact medical centres/hospitals in the locality?
 
rosesfromangels said:
Didn’t her nephew confirm hiking in a bikini with beer in hand sounded just like his Aunt? (Fun loving). I thought I read that here?

ETA that if it were super hot that day, we can speculate she probably consumed more than one, although we certainly don’t know. Did drinking beer contribute to her disappearance? Not a far fetched speculation. Again, we just don’t know.

Amateur opinion and speculation
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Yes, he said hiking in a bikini and drinking a beer sounded just like Barbara, or something like that.
So apparently it was not unusual or out of character for her.

It's not really relevant to me, except that it may have contributed to get becoming dehydrated, if she was.
Older adults naturally have less water in their bodies and are more likely to become dehydrated due to other factors. (electrolyte imbalance, infections, medication, etc.)
Also, our bodies have reduced thirst "signals" as we age.
My Aunt once had heat exhaustion and insisted she felt fine right up until the point that she became disoriented and had to be taken to the hospital. It can come on very fast.

Although if this happened to Barbara I would not think she could have gotten very far and the searchers would have found her.

Then again in Nora Quorin's case, the girl who went missing in Malaysia, they had over 300 searchers looking for 9 days who could not locate her and she was disabled and had significant mobility problems. Of course it was in the jungle, but still, the search area was only 2.5 square miles.

How big was the search area in this case? Imo
 
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Just had a thought, prompted by @dbdb11 's recent post that he doesn't think she got lost in the desert and that he thinks the clues are not even in the desert.

I was trying to narrow down what this left as a realistic possibility, especially since he's said he also thinks there are photos proving she was indeed there that morning.

That prompted this idea. I'm not advocating it or believing it, just wanting all configurations this side of alien abduction to be at least thought about by all y'all reading here.

So --

What if BT was there that day as claimed.

What if something happened and she died. Accident, violence, whatever.

And then what if she wasn't left there, but rather her body was removed?

But not by RT?

Or at least not in the new truck/5th wheel, which have presumably been searched and cadaver dog sniffed and presumably found clean?

But by some other people or some other vehicle that is not on LE's radar?
 
Auntie Cipation said:
Just had a thought, prompted by @dbdb11 's recent post that he doesn't think she got lost in the desert and that he thinks the clues are not even in the desert.

I was trying to narrow down what this left as a realistic possibility, especially since he's said he also thinks there are photos proving she was indeed there that morning.

That prompted this idea. I'm not advocating it or believing it, just wanting all configurations this side of alien abduction to be at least thought about by all y'all reading here.

So --

What if BT was there that day as claimed.

What if something happened and she died. Accident, violence, whatever.

And then what if she wasn't left there, but rather her body was removed?

But not by RT?

Or at least not in the new truck/5th wheel, which have presumably been searched and cadaver dog sniffed and presumably found clean?

But by some other people or some other vehicle that is not on LE's radar?
Click to expand...
who and why? can you expand a little?
 
Vail said:
It was 91 today where I live and I am several decades younger than Barb and STILL thought I would die of heat stroke after 2 minutes walking in the sun at 1-3pm. It sounds like perfect conditions for a 69 year young woman to perish. Remains are exceedingly difficult to see in a desert/rocky terrain until they bleach (9 mos or so).

But the searchers didn't find a single trace.
The dogs didn't smell her in optimal conditions.
No mention of buzzards or ravens.
No clothing, no cup.

If she is around there, I have to believe she is under rocks, buried or obscured in the creekbed.
I truly hope they can search again with some good dogs in the coming months as it cools off.
Click to expand...

A couple of points:
1: The conditions for dogs were far from optimal. Two things that were good—the dogs were brought in immediately, and they had a well defined starting point for the search. But the weather conditions were abysmal—dry scorching heat.

2: For whatever reason, buzzards and other scavenger birds are seldom helpful.

A point I’ve made before: In 20 minutes a person can easily walk a mile. That gives the searchers 3 square miles to search.

In 40 minutes, two miles. That gives the searchers 12 square miles to search.

In an hour, three miles. That gives the searchers 28 square miles.

Now visualize searching 28 square miles, 12 square miles, or even 3 square miles for a travel cup—color unknown—that may have rolled under a clump of cholla cactus.
 
dbdb11 said:
It was around this thread that I personally concluded Barbara did not get lost in the desert.

The clues aren't even in the desert. They're in televised interviews, statements of relevant law enforcement, and in decades past.

If playing through scenarios of Barb getting lost keeps this thread alive I can't be opposed to it.

<modsnip> Where is Barbara?


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Hi Dbdb11, I hope you and your family are holding up as best as can be expected.

I wanted to ask if you have heard back from LE in regard to the request for the drone search. Have they given you an answer as to whether that can be done, or at least some information about how to go about it?

Also I think you said the last time you talked to Robert he said he had trouble reaching you or couldn't get through at all, and that it was better if you contacted him.

Have you spoken to him since then? Have you tried to contact him and if so, has he returned your calls? Has it been difficult to get a hold of him?

It would be great if you could share anything about what he has said they are doing to find Barbara if you are comfortable with that. Thank you!
 
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Auntie Cipation said:
Just had a thought, prompted by @dbdb11 's recent post that he doesn't think she got lost in the desert and that he thinks the clues are not even in the desert.

I was trying to narrow down what this left as a realistic possibility, especially since he's said he also thinks there are photos proving she was indeed there that morning.

That prompted this idea. I'm not advocating it or believing it, just wanting all configurations this side of alien abduction to be at least thought about by all y'all reading here.

So --

What if BT was there that day as claimed.

What if something happened and she died. Accident, violence, whatever.

And then what if she wasn't left there, but rather her body was removed?

But not by RT?

Or at least not in the new truck/5th wheel, which have presumably been searched and cadaver dog sniffed and presumably found clean?

But by some other people or some other vehicle that is not on LE's radar?
Click to expand...

I cannot presume that the truck and RV were searched. While I know it's within the realm of legal possibility, given that it's California and especially given the large number of disgruntled person lawsuits against SBCS, I don't think they'd do that without permission or a warrant. LE who were seen to be taking advantage of a distraught, elderly, possibly heat-exhausted man to search without a warrant....are not going to get anything from that search admitted into court. MOO there, but it's a strong opinion. If they did search the RV and truck, that's not been released to the public and apparently did not reveal a body, blood or anything else to suggest a crime had been committed. RT would be arrested by now.

I think they did not search it, sadly.

I am not sure there were cadaver dogs there that first day, either. There were sniffer dogs, but cadaver dogs are more rare. The next search, I'd think, would certainly include them and perhaps they were out there on the 4-5th day and later, but by then, RT and his RV were gone.

I take DB's comments to mean that he doesn't think she got lost. He thinks there was foul play, not desert misadventure. At least, that's how I take it. Let's say the couple had a fight, and that fight occurred not where RT says he last saw Barbara but further from the RV (let's say at the hilltop - more than a mile from the RV and requiring exertion to get up there). Barbara, perhaps fearing for her safety in remaining near RT, takes off into the desert and RT does not go after her. That's not "getting lost," that's "running from a threat."

As @wary just said, if Barbara went only a mile further out into the desert, the size of the search area increases by a lot, especially for a grid search. It could easily be 28 square miles (the number of volunteers needed would be 4-5X what they had, there are only so many and they could only work during certain hours).

And to address the footprint issue: yes, there were footprints in the (graded) parking area, which lacks the protruding rocks and the hard packed desert pan that the trail may have. There are far too many footprints in the parking lot to be forensically useful, at all (same with the tire tracks). What would be useful is seeing a footprint just off trail. If there are photos showing that Barbara was out there, they don't need to spend their time trying to see two pairs of footprints (which would reveal nothing about timing - whether the two were together or separated while walking).

I think going through the "lost" scenarios serves only one purpose (if in fact, Barbara was attempting to flee some circumstance in the desert, rather than merely being disoriented and lost), and that is to consider what, exactly, a person does in the desert under that circumstance. What would her strategies ultimately be? Because that could create a new, plausible search area.

For a fantastic read on what it's like in the desert, when you don't have water, get hold of Edward Abbey's Desert Solitaire and read the chapter on water.

As it turns out, one of the things the Sweeney Desert Studies Center is doing (along with other researchers) is finding and documenting all the springs, seasonal and otherwise, out there. Abbey's book talks specifically about July and how very different July is from May or June.

So, my mind comes back to the perfect storm of the timing of this ill-fated trip to the desert. Hot, but not 115F hot, so many people would think they would be okay with 104-105F (when of course, dehydration would occur pretty quickly). One person (RT) apparently carries all the water and other supplies (if any). No whistles, no wilderness essentials. Barbara wearing something ill-suited to rock scrambling or going off trail. Hiking in mid-afternoon rather than morning or early evening. One of the parties has an upcoming trip that involves worry about an ailing relative. Barbara has to get ready for two trips (the camping trip and the international trip) simultaneously. She is not tech savvy and has to travel internationally without a cell phone. Both of them were, IMO, stressed that day.

Anyone who lives in the desert knows that desert searches in the summer are often unsuccessful, that scent can be lost, etc, etc.
 
artsy1 said:
My actual point was, how many people carry around a big gallon of water on a walk. (My mind just kind of wandered from there before my morning coffee.)
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Maybe he carried it via one of those hydration packs that are worn on your body like a backpack, and have a tube attached where you drink from (kinda like a straw)? I don’t know their capacities, but know they can have pockets for some other items, as well.
 
artsy1 said:
If you look at the threads on Barbara, how may posts pick apart RT's words to make him sound guilty of something? "She WAS", "NEVER ever", "USE the RV/(turned away - ?) the RV", "parking lot (or parking area)" etc.

At what point do we say "people don't always use words literally; why does it matter" to some of RT's words but not others? At what point do we say that people are reading too much into small discrepancies?

I think sometimes we lose focus of the big picture of finding Barbara, and too much time trying RT for a crime that LE hasn't said he committed from one word here or there. Maybe it hasn't happened for a few days, but it happens a lot, and sadly, I don't follow these threads so closely anymore because of the lack of focus that pops up.
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Thank you, I too find this happens all the time in such threads. Far too many seem unable to think about how people actually talk. How stories can change in minute ways each time they are repeated. How people don't always listen or hear properly, and miss things. How we sometimes use the wrong word, or go off on a tangent.

Added to that is the attitude so often encountered that "I wouldn't do that, therefore neither would anybody else" or "I don't believe that is possible, therefore it isn't".
 
Jazzy5980 said:
I’ve been troubled from the outset about RT purportedly carrying a gallon of water on the trail. Not something experienced hikers do.
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Weren't they planning on going for a few days or so? Maybe a gallon is a lot! I was thinking one of those very large size carriers, that would hold perhaps 10 litres or so.
 
slowpoke said:
Maybe he carried it via one of those hydration packs that are worn on your body like a backpack, and have a tube attached where you drink from (kinda like a straw)? I don’t know their capacities, but know they can have pockets for some other items, as well.
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It is possible he had one inserted in his backpack. My water bladder holds 3 liters of water and it fits in the backpack flat against your back. A gallon is usually around 3.75 liters.
 
slowpoke said:
Maybe he carried it via one of those hydration packs that are worn on your body like a backpack, and have a tube attached where you drink from (kinda like a straw)? I don’t know their capacities, but know they can have pockets for some other items, as well.
Click to expand...

Most hydration units hold either 2 or 3 liters. It sounds like RT was implying that he was carrying water for both him and BT. In that case, using a hydration unit would be a bit weird since then they'd have to both suck the water out of the same tube. I mean, spouses usually share germs, but that would kind of involve sharing saliva. I doubt they were "sharing" one hydration bladder.

If RT was carrying a gallon of water to be shared between him and BT, my guess is that he would be carrying it in either a gallon container or in several smaller bottles. A gallon container is awkward to drink from, but they could've been going the "container plus cups" route on their walk. Several smaller bottles would make more sense. While a gallon sounds like a lot, it's probably a good idea for two people carry at least that much on even a short hike in the desert.

As @10ofRods noted, if one person in a couple carries/has all the water, and possibly other supplies, in their pack, while the other is wearing non-protective clothing (except for the boots) and has no pack, then the person with no gear, though less burdened, would be very dependent on the person with the water and the gear. And if the two of them become separated, especially in a hot desert, that may lead to problems.
MOO
 
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MsMiniSleuth said:
Weren't they planning on going for a few days or so? Maybe a gallon is a lot! I was thinking one of those very large size carriers, that would hold perhaps 10 litres or so.
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A gallon of water is the amount RT said he brought on the approximately 2-mile walk on which he says that BT disappeared. They weren't backpacking or anything -- this was described as a little side trip to view a rock formation. IMO, they would've been carrying many more gallons of water in their RV.
JMO
 
Cherwell said:
Thank you, I too find this happens all the time in such threads. Far too many seem unable to think about how people actually talk. How stories can change in minute ways each time they are repeated. How people don't always listen or hear properly, and miss things. How we sometimes use the wrong word, or go off on a tangent.

Added to that is the attitude so often encountered that "I wouldn't do that, therefore neither would anybody else" or "I don't believe that is possible, therefore it isn't".
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People forget that when the S---- hits the fan, the experience is quite different when you're in front of the fan than if your talking about it later.
 
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