GUILTY TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #7

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kaen said:
@Hraefn, thanks for these insights. I have a question if you will answer it?

I go back to the night of this incident and think about the Dallas Police seeing this as an officer involved shooting. Ms. Guyger had all of the perks of being an officer which led to no blood test for hours, no interview, turning off in the recording equipment and the arrival of DPA head. If she was seen by them as on duty, can they distance the department from this? Does this put the police department in more of vulnerable position in terms of a law suit?
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The aftermath and any alleged or actual coverup won’t (or shouldn’t) be as relevant in the civil suit as the atmosphere and policies prior to the shooting. The coverup punishment would’ve come up through other officers being charged for things like obstruction or perjury.

But for instance, if DPD knew officers routinely left in uniform and the department didn’t do anything about it, a jury could find that the department allowing this behavior is the whole reason she had a firearm, and find DPD in part caused Bo’s death.

A wrongful death suit involves 4 elements:
Duty
Breach of the duty
Cause
Death

DPD definitely has a duty to the citizens it is sworn to protect, and Bo definitely died. So off the top 2/4 elements are met.

DPD may have breached their duty depending on the facts (like the example above, if they didn’t care that officers violated uniform policies).

If a jury finds a breach of duty, and that breach of duty itself at least partially caused Bo’s death, DPD should be found liable and owe damages to the Jean family.

Of course even in civil suits jurors bring bias with them, and some states have broad immunity clauses for government or law enforcement entities, so a lot of factors could affect it.
 
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Hraefn said:
The aftermath and any alleged or actual coverup won’t (or shouldn’t) be as relevant in the civil suit as the atmosphere and policies prior to the shooting. The coverup punishment would’ve come up through other officers being charged for things like obstruction or perjury.

But for instance, if DPD knew officers routinely left in uniform and the department didn’t do anything about it, a jury could find that the department allowing this behavior is the whole reason she had a firearm, and find DPD in part caused Bo’s death.

A wrongful death suit involves 4 elements:
Duty
Breach of the duty
Cause
Death

DPD definitely has a duty to the citizens it is sworn to protect, and Bo definitely died. So off the top 2/4 elements are met.

DPD may have breached their duty depending on the facts (like the example above, if they didn’t care that officers violated uniform policies).

If a jury finds a breach of duty, and that breach of duty itself at least partially caused Bo’s death, DPD should be found liable and owe damages to the Jean family.

Of course even in civil suits jurors bring bias with them, and some state’s have broad immunity clauses for government or law enforcement entities, so a lot of factors could affect it.
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Thank you so much for the detailed answer. I really appreciate it.
 
Please continue discussion here and remember ...

WS does not allow certain inflammatory discussion (race, religion, orientation, gun control, death penalty).

Absolutely do not bring race into this discussion other than what might possibly be addressed in court as part of the sentencing process. Stay away from your own commentary about race or your post will be removed.

As usual, no bickering or off topic posts.

Thanks to all for your cooperation.
 
Hraefn said:
The aftermath and any alleged or actual coverup won’t (or shouldn’t) be as relevant in the civil suit as the atmosphere and policies prior to the shooting. The coverup punishment would’ve come up through other officers being charged for things like obstruction or perjury.

But for instance, if DPD knew officers routinely left in uniform and the department didn’t do anything about it, a jury could find that the department allowing this behavior is the whole reason she had a firearm, and find DPD in part caused Bo’s death.

A wrongful death suit involves 4 elements:
Duty
Breach of the duty
Cause
Death

DPD definitely has a duty to the citizens it is sworn to protect, and Bo definitely died. So off the top 2/4 elements are met.

DPD may have breached their duty depending on the facts (like the example above, if they didn’t care that officers violated uniform policies).

If a jury finds a breach of duty, and that breach of duty itself at least partially caused Bo’s death, DPD should be found liable and owe damages to the Jean family.

Of course even in civil suits jurors bring bias with them, and some state’s have broad immunity clauses for government or law enforcement entities, so a lot of factors could affect it.
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I sure hope the city of Dallas doesn't wiggle out of this because of a broad immunity clause. Perhaps I'm engaging in wishful thinking that the city will quickly settle with Bo's family and it will be a substantial sum without a jury being involved. The public, no matter race, religion or political persuasion, is collectively sick and tired of these cases and the lame excuses for cops failing to do the job they are paid--and trained-- to do. It happened in the Damond case and I hope it happens in this one.

Minneapolis agrees to pay $20 million in death of Justine Ruszczyk Damond
 
Hraefn said:
As an aside this is one reason why people hate lawyers and why I drive my husband crazy. The correct answer to everything for lawyers is “it depends.” Lol
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I don't mind the "it depends" that lawyers do. I can absolutely understand the conditionals in concert with the extremely complicated dynamics that occur in all human interactions. I work with young adults/adolescents/early teens so I really get the complications and conditionals.
 
MyBelle said:
I sure hope the city of Dallas doesn't wiggle out of this because of a broad immunity clause. Perhaps I'm engaging in wishful thinking that the city will quickly settle with Bo's family and it will be a substantial sum without a jury being involved. The public, no matter race, religion or political persuasion, is collectively sick and tired of these cases and the lame excuses for cops failing to do the job they are paid--and trained-- to do. It happened in the Damond case and I hope it happens in this one.

Minneapolis agrees to pay $20 million in death of Justine Ruszczyk Damond
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I think if she had been on duty a settlement would happen more quickly and quietly. But since she wasn’t I think DPD will claim “she was acting outside the scope of her duties, and we even have a uniform policy to prevent this from happening! It’s not our fault she looked like she was on duty!” JMO and I hope I’m wrong. I wish the Jean family only ever had to return to Dallas by their own choice, I hate that the lawsuits keep re-traumatizing them.

I will look into any possible immunity clause soon. I hope none will apply here too JMO.
 
Hraefn said:
The aftermath and any alleged or actual coverup won’t (or shouldn’t) be as relevant in the civil suit as the atmosphere and policies prior to the shooting. The coverup punishment would’ve come up through other officers being charged for things like obstruction or perjury.

But for instance, if DPD knew officers routinely left in uniform and the department didn’t do anything about it, a jury could find that the department allowing this behavior is the whole reason she had a firearm, and find DPD in part caused Bo’s death.

A wrongful death suit involves 4 elements:
Duty
Breach of the duty
Cause
Death

DPD definitely has a duty to the citizens it is sworn to protect, and Bo definitely died. So off the top 2/4 elements are met.

DPD may have breached their duty depending on the facts (like the example above, if they didn’t care that officers violated uniform policies).

If a jury finds a breach of duty, and that breach of duty itself at least partially caused Bo’s death, DPD should be found liable and owe damages to the Jean family.

Of course even in civil suits jurors bring bias with them, and some states have broad immunity clauses for government or law enforcement entities, so a lot of factors could affect it.
Click to expand...
Regarding the apartment complex being liable for faulty door locks, I found one witness testimony about her lock being tricky when it rained (humidity maybe ?). I could be wrong but I think another resident also testified about his lock.

At 26:29

 
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Hraefn said:
I think if she had been on duty a settlement would happen more quickly and quietly. But since she wasn’t I think DPD will claim “she was acting outside the scope of her duties, and we even have a uniform policy to prevent this from happening! It’s not our fault she looked like she was on duty!” JMO and I hope I’m wrong. I wish the Jean family only ever had to return to Dallas by their own choice, I hate that the lawsuits keep re-traumatizing them.

I will look into any possible immunity clause soon. I hope none will apply here too JMO.
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Sentencing Law and Policy: After murder conviction, Texas jury on to sentencing phase in trial of Amber Guyger for killing Botham Jean
 
Hraefn said:
The aftermath and any alleged or actual coverup won’t (or shouldn’t) be as relevant in the civil suit as the atmosphere and policies prior to the shooting. The coverup punishment would’ve come up through other officers being charged for things like obstruction or perjury.

But for instance, if DPD knew officers routinely left in uniform and the department didn’t do anything about it, a jury could find that the department allowing this behavior is the whole reason she had a firearm, and find DPD in part caused Bo’s death.

A wrongful death suit involves 4 elements:
Duty
Breach of the duty
Cause
Death

DPD definitely has a duty to the citizens it is sworn to protect, and Bo definitely died. So off the top 2/4 elements are met.

DPD may have breached their duty depending on the facts (like the example above, if they didn’t care that officers violated uniform policies).

If a jury finds a breach of duty, and that breach of duty itself at least partially caused Bo’s death, DPD should be found liable and owe damages to the Jean family.

Of course even in civil suits jurors bring bias with them, and some states have broad immunity clauses for government or law enforcement entities, so a lot of factors could affect it.
Click to expand...

I think that AG's continued comments about being exhausted and overworked from a 13.5 hour day have played heavily in this case. That has liability ramifications.

I would have no problem if all police officers could only work 8 hour shifts, with no overtime pay, unless directly approved by 2 supervisors. However, the police officers union would have a lot to say about this issue.
 
Hraefn said:
As an aside this is one reason why people hate lawyers and why I drive my husband crazy. The correct answer to everything for lawyers is “it depends.” Lol
Click to expand...
I don't hate lawyers, I just don't trust them. My brother is a civil rights and criminal lawyer and my grandfather and his father were judges back when the states resembled a far different place. My brother has often told me, "all lawyers lie, the good ones just don't get caught." Our nephew, who is a police detective in a major city, agrees. lol
 
Hraefn said:
I think if she had been on duty a settlement would happen more quickly and quietly. But since she wasn’t I think DPD will claim “she was acting outside the scope of her duties, and we even have a uniform policy to prevent this from happening! It’s not our fault she looked like she was on duty!” JMO and I hope I’m wrong. I wish the Jean family only ever had to return to Dallas by their own choice, I hate that the lawsuits keep re-traumatizing them.

I will look into any possible immunity clause soon. I hope none will apply here too JMO.
Click to expand...
I hope no immunity clause applies in this case. A cop, in uniform, should uphold the law whether she is on duty or not.
 
mickey2942 said:
I think that AG's continued comments about being exhausted and overworked from a 13.5 hour day have played heavily in this case. That has liability ramifications.

I would have no problem if all police officers could only work 8 hour shifts, with no overtime pay, unless directly approved by 2 supervisors. However, the police officers union would have a lot to say about this issue.
Click to expand...
I don't feel sorry for AG because of the work load. She was paid and her hours were my workload 20 years ago after my company started downsizing and I wasn't paid by the hour.
I was exhausted as I watched my co-workers being laid off and I had to pick up their jobs. I literally became the last person to turn out the lights in a department that once had over 200 staff. That company has changed its name twice since then.

I think ALL Americans are working ridiculous hours. Maybe the police union should step in and negotiate better hours because that is their role as a police union. But it also would be helpful if they would take a look around at what other Americans are going through if they want sympathy in the process.

JMO
 
Guyger, 31, appeared to show no immediate reaction as the verdict was read, though Jean's family members could be heard crying quietly. As court recessed following the verdict, Jean's family and supporters could be heard celebrating the verdict in the hallway.

The verdict, which was rendered after just over four hours of deliberation, was unanimous.

Guyger's defense team consoled her at the defense table. She was later allowed to leave the courtroom with her attorneys, but returned to await the jury's return.

Members of Guyger's family, who The Dallas Morning News reported were in court for the first time Monday, sat in court, quietly consoling one another.
Jury rejects 'castle doctrine' defense in Amber Guyger trial, finds ex-cop guilty of murder
 
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