Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #48

[sleepinoz]

Have they already finished the investigation against Jubelin for the alleged illegal recording snafu?

Is that over and done with?

No he goes back to court in February.

The case against the retired detective will be heard over five days from February 3

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...w-detective-gary-jubelin-20190924-p52uac.html

 

[Warshawski]

42:30 of podcast One Last Roar

Lia: Senior Constable Matthew Gates with his general purpose sniffer dog PD Gov .. they arrived about 2 hours after William disappeared. And Snr Const Gates later recalled in his official police statement why they had trouble tracking the scent.

“Upon my arrival I assessed the area, and found that tracking was impossible. This is due to the amount of time that had passed between William Tyrrell going missing and the time it took for me to travel to Kendall.
During my assessment of the area I was told that William Tyrrell was last seen at the rear of the house. The house is on the last culdesac which is bound by thick bushland, it sits on the top of a hill.
The easiest line of travel for a person leaving the house was downhill in an easterly direction.

I decided it would be most effective for me to begin a search of all the yards heading downhill, away from the house. This was also the direction of travel to the Kendall township which I believe to be the most likely place a child would walk.
I started searching all the rear yards heading in a easterly direction down Benaroon Drive. I was followed by two general duties police and several members of the public, who started a line search approximately 20 metres behind me.
PD Gov and I checked in the sheds, play equipment, garden or any other area a child might hide in. The police behind me spoke to any residents they could find, and checked any houses that were unlocked. They also double checked the areas PD Gov and I had searched.

When we got to the last house on the northern side of Benaroon Drive, we crossed to the southern side and began to search in the same way back up the hill towards the end of the culdesac. At no time had I located a scent for a starting point or track, no items of clothing or property relating to William Tyrrell were located during this search."


It was also mentioned by FM earlier on that she is not surprised the dog had trouble tracking William, she said that 10/20/30/40 people had tramped through the house and through the garden.
Lia confirmed (herself) that the house and garden were not cordoned off when she showed up at the location.
A police officer from the Daniel Morcombe case earlier said the house should have been cordoned off and only a ncorridor allowed for entry and exit. In William's case, the police even parked and set themselves up in the 2nd driveway.

I agree, Sn Con Gates determined the difficulty in his findings / tracking was due to 2 HR time lapse between occurance & tracing - but I didn't hear him mention anything about being due to the numbers of people traversing the area.

Were the masses rallied an searching that early on ? Personally I don't think so....certainly neighbours were searching but how far & how wide at that stage ?

IMO, the reason they found no scent was because William was not on the ground. ... and in recognition of those who've said detection is possible 'off the ground' - again I state my belief that this was planned & obviously by an adept & skilled 'organisation' (organisations can be singularly or multiply managed ) .

IMO

 

[Warshawski]

Children will wander off if given half a chance. My front door is locked and I carry my keys in my pocket not as habit, as I worked into the Hotel Industry, but I know my child will shoot straight out the door which my child has done a couple times a while back.
Across the road a few years ago was a family ( They moved, not because I am The Phantom Of The Opera opposite their house) but the local Government decreed your children had to attend the local school in your suburb)
Any way about three times I saw the young boy(age four) sneak out the front door touch the curb with his feet waited a few minutes and dashed back inside, without his Mother knowing.

I can see William going to the road curb and back to the house.

On the third time, I called out to him if he did again I would tell his parents. He never did it again
I told the neighbours next door she kept a look out as well. She even keeps an eye out even for my child/ other children just in case.

Foster Father answered truthfully, knowing his Foster Children also as he would remember what he did as a boy, given half the chance William would wander off, but FM and FFG were watching Lindsay and William had only pop inside for couple minutes.
So William knew he was being watched thought he was safe maybe just to walk to the curb and back.
Sometimes we all make a split desision like William's Foster Family,who saw FG home and the street is quiet and safe, no cars etc.
( Ourselves as parents watching the children,look all kids playing outside together, keeping each other busy, I just make a quick call of nature or cup of Tea.
Suddenly there is yelling one of the children had a accident...You have to explain where you were and why.)
Even in area I live nearly two years, a Mum was preparing Dinner, glancing out the window as her three kids were playing hide and seek in the Front yard, she was getting something from the cupboard when she heard the teenage son yelling from side of the house running to front yard, she looked out the window to see a man carrying her youngest child under the age of five. She dashed outside, but due to the teenager coming to his sibling aid the man threw the young child down and took off in a car. For over ten years the children had played in the front yard safety, parents believed that too.
The children no longer play out front yard. That family was lucky.
But William's family are still trying to find their missing boy.
William Foster Family is worse case

Certainly Shadow I hear your sentiments re children these days not being safe to play in the front yard - it's a topic often discussed in my circle & it's a very sad indictment of our society. It's just so wrong that our kids can no longer experience the joyous experience of childhood. These days its across the world be it wars or whatever - the world is rife with those who are just out for their own greed & self-indulgence & there's no regard for humanity.

However I don't agree with your blanket statement that ' children will roam given the chance'. For sure Some will, Others won't ( said as a parent, also as a home child Carer)

My personal interpretation of all said by William's FP's was that he was a cautious boy ( understandable I feel due to his experiences ) and I don't personally believe that Willam wandered.

However I am still intrigued by the actual happening in FGM home that morning as that (FGM, W & L) were sitting & colouring on the deck; then William getting bored of colouring & playing at being a a Tiger.
Photo taken was said to be of the Roar ..

Didn't we also hear that W & L were playing hidey ?

I think there must be something said by L - she was 5 years old. They know a lot at that age. .

 

[stormbird]

This discrepancy from PS is frustrating me the most, because in the previous thread, Dr Sleuth stated, “Things like when PS was asked if he knew if the FGM had grandchildren & he replied I'm not sure & GJ just shook his head.” (ETA can’t find a post number at the moment because I’m on my phone)

Seriously? It seems that PS said that he wasn’t sure if FGM had grandchildren, as well as also giving all the detail as quoted above about the FGM’s grandchildren. How is it even possible to forget that?!

Loxoli,
To see the number/link for a post, turn your phone sideways (a handy tip from @sleepinoz and @Bohemian back in thread 42).

If PS was saying he didn't know whether FGM had grandchildren - as well as saying that he'd seen them at the Christmas party - I agree, that would be stupid. But after @drsleuth's notes showing both Mr Craddock's questions (C) and PS's answers, I think it's possible that PS meant only that he didn't know whether FGM had the grandchildren with her:

"C: Did you hear sound of children playing? (From statement 25/9/14 assumed it was coming from Ellendale or FGM)
C: You knew FGM had these grandchildren?
PS: I'm not sure
PS: Didn't see the children, I didn't see them at all actually"
- @drsleuth (thread 48, post 353)

 

[Loxoli]

Loxoli,
To see the number/link for a post, turn your phone sideways (a handy tip from @sleepinoz and @Bohemian back in thread 42).

If PS was saying he didn't know whether FGM had grandchildren - as well as saying that he'd seen them at the Christmas party - I agree, that would be stupid. But after @drsleuth's notes showing both Mr Craddock's questions (C) and PS's answers, I think it's possible that PS meant only that he didn't know whether FGM had the grandchildren with her:

"C: Did you hear sound of children playing? (From statement 25/9/14 assumed it was coming from Ellendale or FGM)
C: You knew FGM had these grandchildren?
PS: I'm not sure
PS: Didn't see the children, I didn't see them at all actually"
- @drsleuth (thread 48, post 353)

Oh I didn’t realise that. Thank you, stormbird.

Right, it’s starting to make sense to me now when put into context. That discrepancy was bugging me but I understand what he meant by the comments now.

 

[Karinna]

Loxoli,
To see the number/link for a post, turn your phone sideways (a handy tip from @sleepinoz and @Bohemian back in thread 42).

If PS was saying he didn't know whether FGM had grandchildren - as well as saying that he'd seen them at the Christmas party - I agree, that would be stupid. But after @drsleuth's notes showing both Mr Craddock's questions (C) and PS's answers, I think it's possible that PS meant only that he didn't know whether FGM had the grandchildren with her:

"C: Did you hear sound of children playing? (From statement 25/9/14 assumed it was coming from Ellendale or FGM)
C: You knew FGM had these grandchildren?
PS: I'm not sure
PS: Didn't see the children, I didn't see them at all actually"
- @drsleuth (thread 48, post 353)

Just jumping off your post, did anyone at all even see WT & his sister playing that morning?
I know one of the neighbours said something about hearing kids playing, but no visual i don't think?
So they arrived at around 9pm. the night before IIRC, but no one on the street seen the children the next morning?

 

[SouthAussie]

Just jumping off your post, did anyone at all even see WT & his sister playing that morning?
I know one of the neighbours said something about hearing kids playing, but no visual i don't think?
So they arrived at around 9pm. the night before IIRC, but no one on the street seen the children the next morning?

Considering that Lindsay was there for off duty officer Wendy Hudson to speak with, that people heard the children playing (and likely from the direction of FGM's house), and that no-one has come forward to say that their children were out playing at that time that morning - with school being on - or that their child/ren were playing with Lindsay ... it is probably safe to say that William was there. If that is what the post is getting at.

As well, FM, FD, FGM, the abductor, maybe man in the teal car, maybe postie, would have seen them. imo

 

[they'll get you]

Around this time, Judy Wilson, whose property was just metres from William's grandmother's yard, heard the two children playing before she took off to run errands in town.

The day William Tyrrell vanished


JUDY WILSON: I would say that the abduction idea has been there since the beginning really, because after the search and they found no sign of him, they would have to think that he was removed by other human intervention. That's what I thought and that's what a lot of other people thought in the town.

Fresh leads in disappearance of three-year-old William Tyrell
JAN 21 2015

 

[they'll get you]

LYING IN WAIT?
THE person who abducted toddler William Tyrell may have laid in wait until the nearby houses were empty before striking, a neighbour believes.

Judy Wilson, whose property adjoins William’s grandmother’s backyard, believes it may be more than just coincidence that the child disappeared only after she went to run errands in town.

She said someone could have been waiting for her to leave, potentially aware that the neighbour on the other side was also away.

“If someone was watching the house, they would’ve seen me leave and would’ve known the other neighbour was away,” she said

Her theory emerged as it was revealed that a second access point to the street could hold the key to cracking the case.
We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

 

[they'll get you]

Mrs Wilson said she heard the two children playing in the neighbouring yard before she left to run errands in the township about 90 minutes before William disappeared, just metre’s from her home.

It was not the first time the family had visited Kendall, but their visits had become more frequent in recent months after William’s grandfather died earlier in the year.
We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

 

[they'll get you]

A run of bad luck.

MARION Dalton regularly enjoys a midmorning coffee with her daughter while sitting on the veranda of her Benaroon Dr, Kendall, home — giving her a perfect view of the street where young William Tyrrell happily played.

Iona Bligh often jogs down that same stretch of bitumen and past the nondescript brick home owned by little William’s grandparents.

After a busy morning running her kids to school, Anne-Maree Sharpley was desperate for some quiet time and sat down with a book.

Lydene Heslop also had a hectic morning grocery shopping and was unloading bags from her car before taking them inside.

On that fateful morning of September 12 last year, chance and life conspired to ensure people who would normally have a bird’s-eye view as William and his sister played in the sunshine weren’t there.
We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

 

[stormbird]

Here is something I've been working on... It's a map of the relationships between key people identified in the case. Thought I would share it in the event others find it useful.

Please let me know if there are any corrections/additions required.

Ms Kite,
Well done on the map of relationships! It's really easy to follow, and actually even beautiful, IMO. Great work.

The only possible gaps I could find (and I'm not sure these witnesses qualify as "key people", so please feel free to leave them out if you prefer):
- appearing at the inquest on Wed 14 August 2019: TP and MM, reporting a possible sighting of a possibly dodgy white Holden Commodore;
- appearing at the inquest on Wed 28 August 2019: KC, reporting her knowledge of TJ (and in a quick search I was unable to find mention of her name anywhere except in Lia's tweets and here on WebSleuths, by the way... which is a bit strange, IMO).

 

[stormbird]

Just jumping off your post, did anyone at all even see WT & his sister playing that morning?
I know one of the neighbours said something about hearing kids playing, but no visual i don't think?
So they arrived at around 9pm. the night before IIRC, but no one on the street seen the children the next morning?

I haven't seen a report saying that anyone outside the foster family saw the children, no.

IMO it's not particularly strange if that's the case. To be able to see the kids on the driveways (facing west) or on the lawn (facing southeast) or on the patio (facing north), a witness would have needed to be at one of the properties nearby with a view not obscurred by trees, or driving or walking past at the relevant time.

 

[Karinna]

Considering that Lindsay was there for off duty officer Wendy Hudson to speak with, that people heard the children playing (and likely from the direction of FGM's house), and that no-one has come forward to say that their children were out playing at that time that morning - with school being on - or that their child/ren were playing with Lindsay ... it is probably safe to say that William was there. If that is what the post is getting at.

As well, FM, FD, FGM, the abductor, maybe man in the teal car, maybe postie, would have seen them. imo

I was just stating no one that i'm aware of actually saw them. By the time police got there WT was missing. That's all. Nothing more and nothing less.
Just like no one else except FFC saw the vehicles on the street either. And that was what came up at the Inquest, and FFC was also questioned about it at the CI, that no one according to police could corroborate that information. I have no idea why? All IMO.

 

[Karinna]

I haven't seen a report saying that anyone outside the foster family saw the children, no.

IMO it's not particularly strange if that's the case. To be able to see the kids on the driveways (facing west) or on the lawn (facing southeast) or on the patio (facing north), a witness would have needed to be at one of the properties nearby with a view not obscurred by trees, or driving or walking past at the relevant time.

My thinking was if no one saw the children that were there that morning, how could a perp. have seen them either? Because the window of opportunity was so small for an abduction IMO.
I think someone definitely saw them in order to take WT.

 

[SouthAussie]

I haven't seen a report saying that anyone outside the foster family saw the children, no.

IMO it's not particularly strange if that's the case. To be able to see the kids on the driveways (facing west) or on the lawn (facing southeast) or on the patio (facing north), a witness would have needed to be at one of the properties nearby with a view not obscurred by trees, or driving or walking past at the relevant time.

Yes, even Paul Savage said "You'd never see them unless you were walking or driving past."

The day William Tyrrell vanished

And with William disappearing so relatively early in the day, the chances of many people walking or driving past were fairly limited. imo

 

[SouthAussie]

Ms Kite,
Well done on the map of relationships! It's really easy to follow, and actually even beautiful, IMO. Great work.

The only possible gaps I could find (and I'm not sure these witnesses qualify as "key people", so please feel free to leave them out if you prefer):
- appearing at the inquest on Wed 14 August 2019: TP and MM, reporting a possible sighting of a possibly dodgy white Holden Commodore;
- appearing at the inquest on Wed 28 August 2019: KC, reporting her knowledge of TJ (and in a quick search I was unable to find mention of her name anywhere except in Lia's tweets and here on WebSleuths, by the way... which is a bit strange, IMO).

BBM

A friend of the victim’s family, Katrina Cherry, who was in court, said the sentence brought some relief: “There’s one less of him on the street.’’
Ms Cherry said she and Jones’ relatives had been questioned extensively by police investigating William Tyrrell’s disappearance.
Paedophile’s car seized in Tyrrell case

Also, on A Current Affair in 2016 .... https://www.9now.com.au/a-current-affair/2016/clip-cis83b06y001i0invri4zw93z

I think the link for the 60 Minutes interview with her, from September 2015, might have expired IIRC.

 

[SouthAussie]

I agree, Sn Con Gates determined the difficulty in his findings / tracking was due to 2 HR time lapse between occurance & tracing - but I didn't hear him mention anything about being due to the numbers of people traversing the area.

Yes, Snr Const Gates did say tracking William was impossible in his official statement, but he didn't explain exactly why the approx 2 hour time period between William's disappearance and PD Gov's arrival made tracking impossible, in this particular case.

“Upon my arrival I assessed the area, and found that tracking was impossible. This is due to the amount of time that had passed between William Tyrrell going missing and the time it took for me to travel to Kendall."

It was FM who thought it could be because 10/20/30/40 people had, by then, tramped through the property.
And it was Qld police officer Dennis Martin who said the property should have been cordoned off immediately by the police.

One Last Roar

 

[they'll get you]

Unless FGM had started a day care centre, the kids were, again, up for a visit & Mrs Wilson had heard them on other visits.

Mrs Wilson said she heard the two children playing in the neighbouring yard.

It was not the first time the family had visited Kendall, but their visits had become more frequent in recent months after William’s grandfather died earlier in the year.
We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

 

[SouthAussie]

Unless FGM had started a day care centre, the kids were, again, up for a visit & Mrs Wilson had heard them on other visits.

Mrs Wilson said she heard the two children playing in the neighbouring yard.

It was not the first time the family had visited Kendall, but their visits had become more frequent in recent months after William’s grandfather died earlier in the year.
We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

FD said in one of the podcasts I have just listened to again that they had visited about half a dozen times that year.