Mexico - 10 members of Polygamist LeBaron Family murdered, Sonora, Nov 2019 *arrests*

[Herat]

That’s a really good, comprehensive article.

I find it interesting that the Le Barons have made their way into Mexican political office. They’re usually insular and far outside any government involvement. However, the Mexican government is close to 75% Anglo. So that part makes some sense.

Their prosperity doesn’t as much.

They’re farmers. Just a few decades ago these were people in Mexico on that same land living in absolute, abject poverty.

They’re not smarter than other farmers. And they still practice polygamy which means that while there are a lot of farm hands to go around, there are also a ton of mouths to feed. One man can easily have 25-50 kids and most of the kids live deprived lives. Including historically, the kids of Colonia Le Baron. How did they get so wealthy? How are they making all their money today?

Regardless, I don’t think the cartel made a mistake and we know they knew they were targeting children. They are indeed terrorists. It will be interesting to see if the Le Baron clan leaves en masse or doubles down and continues to reside in their country. Most don’t know anything else than Mexico but it’s not much of a life when you can’t ever leave the compound for fear of being slaughtered by roving cartels.

I disagree

They ARE more educated, more industrious, and more ruthless than other local farmers.

They send their make childen to BYU in Utah, to study agriculture and business.

They make educated and calculated choices about farming. For example, planting pecans instead of soft or stone fruits. Pecans are a more valuable crop, far less trouble in storage and bringing to market, so the land yields more $$$.

However, tree nuts require a lot of water, actually more than leafy vegetables. So they needed to aquire more water and this family group made recent changes to some “walls” that decreased the water other ranches received from the local stream. And hence, the antagonism of other farmers.

Their work ethic and financial success makes them conspicuous and engenders envy. And then their apparent financial success makes them the target of cartel (orgainized crime) extortion attempts. Which has been going on for more than a decade. A stateside relative said the cartel cut their phone lines so they’ve had to go to cell phones and Whatsapp to communicate.

They are truly surrounded by entrenched terrorism

 

[gitana1]

yes there is.

Interesting that one of their members is part of that government. And yet police protection was reduced for them?

Cartels can be somewhat used like chess pieces by the elite in battles for power. Weed is a cash crop in Chihuahua although cartels have been moving to poppy production (as marijuana becomes easier to access here) which is more long the pacific coast due to climate, from what I have read.

Water rights would play a huge part in that I imagine. Especially in such a hot, dry area.

 

[Herat]

I also do not believe Mexico is a third-world country, and I have traveled the world and spent a considerable amount of time in third-world countrie, sometimes working there.

There is a huge gang problem, and it is directly connected to the once-lax drug laws and socially tolerated drug use that started decades ago in the US. IMHOO

 

[gitana1]

I disagree

They ARE more educated, more industrious, and more ruthless than other local farmers.

They send their make childen to BYU in Utah, to study agriculture and business.

They make educated and calculated choices about farming. For example, planting pecans instead of soft or stone fruits. Pecans are a more valuable crop, far less trouble in storage and bringing to market, so the land yields more $$$.

However, tree nuts require a lot of water, actually more than leafy vegetables. So they needed to aquire more water and this family group made recent changes to some “walls” that decreased the water other ranches received from the local stream. And hence, the antagonism of other farmers.

Their work ethic and financial success makes them conspicuous and engenders envy. And then their apparent financial success makes them the target of cartel (orgainized crime) extortion attempts. Which has been going on for more than a decade. A stateside relative said the cartel cut their phone lines so they’ve had to go to cell phones and Whatsapp to communicate.

They are truly surrounded by entrenched terrorism

They’re also surrounded by other pecan farmers who have just as much knowledge as they do. The pecan industry is huge in that state and very profitable. Other farmers there have just as much knowledge:
https://aces.nmsu.edu/ces/pecans/documents/9 Lopez Diaz.pdf

It’a funny how people pf European descent are always cast as more “industrious” and with a better work ethic than people of a darker hue. 100% nonsense.

Further:

Julián LeBarón, who organized a search party that found some of the vehicles after Monday’s attack, said that in recent years, organized-crime groups haven’t been threatening the community, and said the family had no idea what prompted the murders.

“We see the cartels in the news every day, but they’ve kind of left us alone in the past because we have help from the federal police,” Mr. LeBarón said. “They know what it would cost them to mess with us, and that we aren’t a threat to them.”

BBM
Family That Lost Nine Members in Attack Has a Long History in Mexico

 

[LietKynes]

They’re a small religious group that purports to live a fundamentalist lifestyle but otherwise no. Big difference.

They still likely practice underage marriage of teen girls to middle aged men. It’s a strange world:

“The children were used as unpaid labour in the domestic appliance repair shops that were the cult's main source of income - forced to scrub grease and grime from rusty ovens and refrigerators for 12 hours a day during school holidays.

"I watched siblings of mine receive horrific beatings for any type of attitude," Anna recalls. "And these are young kids. They're kids. How much work can you really get out of a 10-year-old, or an 11-year-old, really? You can get work out of them if you are beating them."

The children were not cut-off entirely from the outside world. They were allowed to go to school, though they were not allowed to talk about what happened at home, and were "taught to lie" Anna says.

The girls were the lowest of the low in the cult's pecking order.

"It was a patriarchy, for sure. And the young girls were groomed to become wives of polygamist men that already had wives. We were groomed to accept that and to know that that's where we were headed, when we became of marriageable age."

Marriageable age, in the LeBaron family, was 15, she says. "So when I escaped at age 13 I escaped by the skin of my teeth!"”
How I escaped my father's murderous polygamous cult

LBM
Saving this post as it's informative and sad.
It's surprising that many do not flee this polygamous branch; but maybe many of them do just that --- but it doesn't make the msm ?
As far as the punishments meted out, that's child abuse in my book --- and not church discipline.
Hoping that once those children are grown --they can find a way of escape !

Religion does not need to be discussed. Illegal activity surely can be discussed. Wantonly endangering children surely can be discussed.

LBM

^^^ I have no problem with that.

Children should never be in danger whether at home or traveling.
It's possible that they'd traveled for other weddings and church functions and nothing had happened before-- even in drug cartel territory.
But that doesn't mean it will never happen.

 

[gitana1]

I also do not believe Mexico is a third-world country, and I have traveled the world and spent a considerable amount of time in third-world countrie, sometimes working there.

There is a huge gang problem, and it is directly connected to the once-lax drug laws and socially tolerated drug use that started decades ago in the US. IMHOO

Today we mostly don’t use the term third world country. It’s developing nation now because the old pacts no longer apply. But Mexico falls under both definitions. What do you think it is, a first world, developed nation?

It’s not a belief. These are geo-political categories. There’s not a debate about it.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/third-world-countries/

Third World - Wikipedia

 

[LietKynes]

However, tree nuts require a lot of water, actually more than leafy vegetables. So they needed to acquire more water and this family group made recent changes to some “walls” that decreased the water other ranches received from the local stream. And hence, the antagonism of other farmers.

LBM

Link ?
Well it looks like there might be a motive.
Not excusing what happened , of course.
You can't take water from other hard-working farmers and ranchers and not expect some fallout.
That just widened the suspect pool by a wide margin.
There might be an arrest that surprises people.
A fellow farmer or rancher and not the cartels.
There needs to be justice ; the offended farmer can't kill children just because your farm has no water.
That doesn't pardon the killers.

 

[Gardenista]

LBM

Link ?
Well it looks like there might be a motive.
Not excusing what happened , of course.
You can't take water from other hard-working farmers and ranchers and not expect some fallout.
That just widened the suspect pool by a wide margin.
There might be an arrest that surprises people.
A fellow farmer or rancher and not the cartels.
There needs to be justice ; the offended farmer can't kill children just because your farm has no water.
That doesn't pardon the killers.

Can't link right now, but see post #88

 

[LietKynes]

The reality is pretty complex probably. Corruption is a huge part. I mean really? Letting a major drug lord go because people are rioting? The only way to stop these cartels is by rounding them up and locking them away. But the powers that be just let them loose back into the streets they control. Why?

Because the elite heavily benefit from the cartel activity and are essentially involved.



It has nothing to do with their religion although their culture and beliefs, such as underage marriage, and their outlaw history are part of the reason México is their home.

How they live and who they are could also play a part in why they were targeted at this particular time and in such a horrific manner.

I don’t think this is a simple case.

LBM
Snipped for focus

It's just a guess but the Mexican gov't. will probably arrest a token criminal to appease everyone and then this will be dropped and not investigated further.
The murderers could've been anyone --from a disgruntled farmer to cartels angry about land/water rights to a past dispute over money not received for services rendered (did the cartels sell them land and weren't paid for it ? Or did the LeBaron's buy vehicles from the cartels and were late with the payments -- or vice versa ?)
The above member posted a link that said the relative of one of the victims admitted to illegally buying guns for their own protection -- did they buy from the wrong people ?

It could be anything but this is sad that it might never be fully solved !

It's so sad for those children--- they were innocent but in harm's way.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

OT
There are four levels on the human development scale - Very High Human Development, High Human Development, Medium Human Development and Low Human Development. Mexico ranks on the High Human Development level of the scale.

Mexico may be a developing country but it seems far from a ‘third world’ country IMO.
Human Development Index 2016 - HDI - Nations Online Project

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/hdi-by-country/

 

[Falling Down]

NY Post has an interesting linked article from Slate about the family's involvement with the NXIVM cult in Upstate, NY:

https://nypost.com/2019/11/05/women...l-murders-had-alleged-ties-to-sex-cult-nxivm/

 

[LietKynes]

NY Post has an interesting linked article from Slate about the family's involvement with the NXIVM cult in Upstate, NY:

https://nypost.com/2019/11/05/women...l-murders-had-alleged-ties-to-sex-cult-nxivm/

Weird.

Here's another :NXIVM sex cult leader 'recruited from same Mexican Mormon community slaughtered by cartel gunmen' | Daily Mail Online

 

[gitana1]

OT
There are four levels on the human development scale - Very High Human Development, High Human Development, Medium Human Development and Low Human Development. Mexico ranks on the High Human Development level of the scale.

Mexico may be a developing country but it seems far from a ‘third world’ country IMO.
Human Development Index 2016 - HDI - Nations Online Project

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/hdi-by-country/

It’s both a third world country and a developing nation. Those are factual definitions:

“What is the definition of a third world country? In many countries, when people hear the phrase “third world country”, visions of impoverished countries struggling to meet basic human needs are the first to pop up. This might be true in today’s society, but the original definition of a third world country referred to the nations that lacked an alliance with either the U.S. or the former Soviet Union during the Cold War.

In recent years, the term has come to define countries that have high poverty rates, economic instability and lack basic human necessities like access to water, shelter or food for its citizens. These countries are often underdeveloped, and in addition to widespread poverty, they also have high mortality rates.

What Is the Definition of a Third World Country? | The Borgen Project

It’s not as bad as say Bangladesh. But there’s a reason there’s so much corruption and cartels are running rampant.

 

[cvaldez1975]

LBM
Snipped for focus

It's just a guess but the Mexican gov't. will probably arrest a token criminal to appease everyone and then this will be dropped and not investigated further.
The murderers could've been anyone --from a disgruntled farmer to cartels angry about land/water rights to a past dispute over money not received for services rendered (did the cartels sell them land and weren't paid for it ? Or did the LeBaron's buy vehicles from the cartels and were late with the payments -- or vice versa ?)
The above member posted a link that said the relative of one of the victims admitted to illegally buying guns for their own protection -- did they buy from the wrong people ?

It could be anything but this is sad that it might never be fully solved !

It's so sad for those children--- they were innocent but in harm's way.

they have already arrested what i suspect is a single "fall guy".

 

[cody22]

dbm...moo

 

[Sillybilly]

Reminder:

When a link is required, please provide the actual link rather than just referring back to a previous post #. Post numbers change if other posts are removed by WS staff.

 

[sloane7777]

they have already arrested what i suspect is a single "fall guy".

yep ....a big yeah right!

 

[moonriverfarm]

LBM

Link ?
Well it looks like there might be a motive.
Not excusing what happened , of course.
You can't take water from other hard-working farmers and ranchers and not expect some fallout.
That just widened the suspect pool by a wide margin.
There might be an arrest that surprises people.
A fellow farmer or rancher and not the cartels.
There needs to be justice ; the offended farmer can't kill children just because your farm has no water.
That doesn't pardon the killers.

Watch Goliath on Amazon.

 

[Cryptic]

It’s both a third world country and a developing nation. Those are factual definitions:

Having travelled in Europe, Mexico and Africa, I would say the best description of Mexico is "second world".

By global standards, Mexico is not a poor country. The standard of living in wealthier Mexican states may even be approaching some European nations such as Greece, Romania, the Balkans etc.

 

[gitana1]

Having travelled in Europe, Mexico and Africa, I would say the best description of Mexico is "second world".

By global standards, Mexico is not a poor country. The standard of living in wealthier Mexican states may even be approaching some European nations such as Greece, Romania, the Balkans etc.

Second world are socialist nations. This is a specific definition isn’t debated.

I think there’s some confusion as to what is meant by these categories. There are specific geo-political categories. What we feel has nothing to do with that. Levels of development are used to describe developing nations and are sometimes colloquially used to define a nation as third world, or not. But that doesn’t apply to second world nations which are specifically defined.

As to the level of development of Mexico, yes, it’s not as poor as many. And Mexico has a lot of resources. But they’re funneled to only a rich few. The poverty rate remains exceedingly high compared to other nations worldwide and they are considered a developing nation. Not developed.

Corruption is a huge part of that. Mexico could do much better if not for that.