WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[leftcoast]

You know what, I have brought this point up about a dozen times, and it deserves one more time.

this case is cold, freezing cold. It is April of 1972.

Why didn't the head of the Portland office, or H-bach's immediate superviser, take one day, and just discuss the case.

During that day, if I was the head of the POrtland office, I would have asked Ralph to make me a "list" of the top 30 suspects, ie, the suspects with the highest number of "tips" called in by the public. In addition, I would ask ralph to list 10 other suspects, which are lower on the list, that he "thinks" could be good for it.

Then, one by one, the 3 agents, H-bach, Head of Portland office, and H-bach's immediate boss, should have gone over each and every suspect, their age, their criminal background, a photo, their ALIBI, and why they are or aren't eliminated.

Then, the three should have narrowed the search down to a top five.

Obviously, this was never done. I can guarantee you, that Ted Mayfield is in the top 5 for the number of tipsters who called in his name. I know at least 12 people who called in his name, including ourselves.

So, why wasn't this done.

I realize that H-bach is 90% responsible for blowing this case, or worse. But, an organization with the resources, intelligence, etc, must have measures in place to protect against such an event. They must. IF not, the FBI needs to fix the problem.

Nobody should be fully eliminated from an "active" investigation, until the case is solved, unless of course, they are in jail at the time.

LIke I stated earlier, there should be different categories.

A= Likely, no evidence
B= Not likely, good alibi
C= No criminal record, great alibi
D=no skydiving history, no criminal record, perfect alibi.
E
F
etc.

Nobody, and I mean, nobody, should be permanently crossed off a "list". Every time a new tip comes in, the agent should follow up, and ask the person why they suspect the person for which they are calling about.

In this case, that was never done. How do we know that one of the tipsters didn't have a clue such as Teddy saying he was going to get even with the FAA? or Teddy having a lot of cash after the heist?

This case should be studied at Quantico, as an example of how "NOT" to conduct an investigation.

Himmelsbach should have followed that hijacked plane to Reno, and personally inspected the airplane when it landed, and then personally interviewed all of the flight attendants while he was in town. That was the first big mistake in this case.

We have all done stupid things in our lifetimes, but, this is beyond the scope, especially given the countless tips, agents, etc, who came in contact with teddy boy.

I really would love to know if Julies Mattson, the head of the Portland FBI office, was aware of H-bach's relationship with Teddy before the heist, and the fact that H-bach NEVER interviewed the witnesses.

IF H-bach was a D.A., he would be disbarred for his actions on this case, a surgeon, he would lose his license to practice medicine, and so on. I sure hope his other cases were handled better than this one.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

It does not make any sense whatsoever that a 20 year veteran in his 40's at the time of the heist would be in any position to be given this case unless he had at least a satisfactory track record. IF H-B conducted most of his investigations like this one, his record would have been so unsatisfactory that he'd be in the FBI soup kitchen peeling potatoes long ago.

The more I think about his "elimination" method, the more convinced I am that this was not just "tie your shoelaces together and trip on you face" LE work.

There appears to be a method, and the mass elimination technique is looking more and more like an old familiar card trick. I'm beginning to see the reason he used this method. Then when you add that to proliferating the "Big Splat" theory, not interviewing the FA's, and still trying to steer the ship after retirement, it just couldn't be by accident.

No I couldn't prove this to the satisfaction of a jury. There is just not enough, and understandably there would always be those who would see this as "poor old H-B...he did his best". But when you look at this logically I don't see that scenario. This is why it would be critical to see how he handled the other cases in his career. I'd be willing to bet that the difference between how he handled all the others and the Cooper case is the biggest inconsistency of all.

OD

 

[Niner]

snip...
LIke I stated earlier, the FBI would get a name, and simply add it to a stack of photos, and show the photos to the FA's. I don't think the lineups were done corrrectly, whereas you put the guy you think is cooper, along with 5 pictures of people who are cops, prisoners, etc. My understanding, is that the FBI would bring photo's from tipster's calls, and have the FA's go through "stacks" of pictures, and try to pick out Cooper.

interesting - ? - now since there were 12 calls (I believe you said) - about Teddy - yet they didn't add HIS picture to the group - ? - strange, eh?

It appears the FBI did the opposite, out of desperation, and simply tried to get the FA's to solve the case by picking Cooper's photo out of a "stack " of suspects. Since Teddy was never a "suspect", why in the world would his picture be in that stack?

but... with all those calls regarding Teddy... strange indeed!!??

IF he said Ted had the best alibi of anyone, why in the world would he show his picture to the FA's? PLus, FBI agents are trained with "yes", and "No", answers. IMO, H-bach knew the answer was "no", and was trying to save face in front of his friend.
left

I think so too... H-bach screwed up.... :doh:

 

[Niner]

I can't disclose everything, but, I can tell you that the FBI is fully aware of our investigation, and the KOIN story was not the first time they have heard about our case.

Ok good!

The current FBI is very secretive, and rightly so, and accordingly you never know if your information is taken seriously, or simply filed away. Hopefully, it is taken seriously, since, they had the case for 35 years, with zero progress.

you would think, eh?? I mean - WOW! I can see the headlines: They caught DB Cooper!! After all these years!! (well... actually you and rightcoast did!

 

[Niner]

Yes. But I still think that IF they're looking into this, it could be that they're trying to catch 2 birds with one stone. If I'm right....this could take some time.

OD

?? do you mean Teddy AND H-bach??

 

[leftcoast]

It does not make any sense whatsoever that a 20 year veteran in his 40's at the time of the heist would be in any position to be given this case unless he had at least a satisfactory track record. IF H-B conducted most of his investigations like this one, his record would have been so unsatisfactory that he'd be in the FBI soup kitchen peeling potatoes long ago.

That is an excellent point. H-bach must have had a decent record at the FBI, or he wouldn't have been assigned by "himself" to this case. On the other hand, one does have to wonder exactly how successful his record was in solving bank robberies, kidnappings, etc. If you think about it, most crimes are rather easy to solve. A print is left, someone rats out the perp., etc. Maybe the lab, other agent's etc, bailed him out on other cases? Or could it be that this case he was too "close", and blew it. Either way, it is just about impossible to believe that a 20 year veteran of the FBI could fall for this amatuer trick of calling in and "proclaiming innocence". 99.9% of the time it doesn't work.

The more I think about his "elimination" method, the more convinced I am that this was not just "tie your shoelaces together and trip on you face" LE work.

There appears to be a method, and the mass elimination technique is looking more and more like an old familiar card trick. I'm beginning to see the reason he used this method. Then when you add that to proliferating the "Big Splat" theory, not interviewing the FA's, and still trying to steer the ship after retirement, it just couldn't be by accident.

That is a good point OD. IF you eliminate everyone, including those who are too young, too old, too fat, too short, etc, noboby can accuse you of dropping the ball, or purposely looking the other way. AT the same time, an argument could be made that in H-bach's other cases, forensic's, photo's, etc solved the case, not H-bach. Plus, isn't it possible that his other cases lacked suspects, whereas, this case, he was overwhelmed by the number of suspects, and quite frankly didn't know what to do. Is that conceiveable? could it be possible H-bach was in over his head, needed help, was too proud, so, in frustration, convinced himself and other's that Cooper must have died?

No I couldn't prove this to the satisfaction of a jury. There is just not enough, and understandably there would always be those who would see this as "poor old H-B...he did his best". But when you look at this logically I don't see that scenario. This is why it would be critical to see how he handled the other cases in his career. I'd be willing to bet that the difference between how he handled all the others and the Cooper case is the biggest inconsistency of all.

I agree. The biggest, most important evidence, is how H-bach handled other cases.

Obviously, there weren't any other cases like this one, but, in the hard cases, did he solve them? or was it the lab? by accident? etc.

I know in one of H-bach's quotes he states that this wasn't his "only" unsolved case when he retired. I wonder how many "others" there were, and if the Portland office was hiding H-bach in the "hijacking" department, since the odds of a hijacking in Portland were almost nill, considering the majority of jacks in the 60's were in the south to Cuba. Interesting.

I wish one of the guys who worked with H-bach would let us know, just how good or bad H-bach was as a detective. Some people can have average intelligence, and be "great" detectives, while other's lack "common sense", and are horrible. I think it is like other things in life, you either have it, or you don't.

It still comes down to the same question:

What was the motive?

left

 

[leftcoast]

interesting - ? - now since there were 12 calls (I believe you said) - about Teddy - yet they didn't add HIS picture to the group - ? - strange, eh?

At least 12 in the first few days. It wouldn't surprise me if the total number of calls pointing at Teddy today is much, much higher. I think 12 was just in the first few days. In his defense, some were simply because he was the local skydiving instructor.

It does make you wonder why Teddy's picture wasn't added just for the heck of it. Then again, it would have taken the effort of someone going to the booking department, and getting the booking photo of teddy, or having it faxed. Not that, takes a lot of work.lol.

but... with all those calls regarding Teddy... strange indeed!!??

How many calls does it take before your picture is shown to the FA's? 15, 20, 25. I wonder if H-bach is thinking, ya, they are only calling since Ted is the local instructor. These greedy people, they all want part of that reward. Heck, that armed robbery was just an anomaly. Heck, Ted is wealthy, he must be, he has use of a plane. I'll bet he was "drunk" when he committed armed robbery. Could happen to anyone of us. Right.

The more I write and think about this, the more I wonder what the heck H-bach was thinking. As an FBI agent, everyone "should" be considered guilty, until their alibi, witnesses, etc, exonnerate them, not the other way around. It's as if H-bach was trying to eliminate people as fast as possible, just to get to Cooper. Little did he know, that in doing this, you most likely already passed on Cooper, and it doesn't matter how many more suspects you look at, you will never catch the perp., once he is eliminated. Hello.

I think so too... H-bach screwed up.... :doh:

Yes, I think that is the most likely scenario. Unless OD or someone can come up with a convincing motive. I know it looks impossible, that it is simply a screw up, but, most screw ups do look stupid in retrospect.

Of course, if we find that H-bach had a perfect record with the FBI, had solved all of his cases, and then bought a new plane right after the hijacking, then, maybe, I will change my opinion. Trust me, I haven't ruled out anything in this case. WE have seen in other cases, like Hansen, that "everyone" is capable of anything. Sometimes motives are not easily determined, and are only known to the players.

Let's assume H-bach did figure it out in say 1972. The rest of his career, whenever he needed a few days off, all you have to do is say I'm going to follow up on some leads on the Cooper case. It is a good way of getting out of work. Farfetched, yes, but it is hard to believe someone could be so gullible, although, I have done some stupid things in my life.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

?? do you mean Teddy AND H-bach??

Well....let's just say that I think one of the FBI's former "finest" could use a little 'vestigation of his own. I think old "lobster face" could probably play a mean game of cards.

OD

 

[Old Dominion]

T If you think about it, most crimes are rather easy to solve. A print is left, someone rats out the perp., etc.

Yes, but isn't this pretty much what happened in this one? I think at least 12 on the very night and countless thereafter "ratted out" the perp. And we still don't know if a print from the stairwell or the intercom phone matches good 'ol Teddy boy (if one was left and hasn't been lost today) but we sure could have back then.

That is a good point OD. IF you eliminate everyone, including those who are too young, too old, too fat, too short, etc, noboby can accuse you of dropping the ball, or purposely looking the other way. AT the same time, an argument could be made that in H-bach's other cases, forensic's, photo's, etc solved the case, not H-bach. Plus, isn't it possible that his other cases lacked suspects, whereas, this case, he was overwhelmed by the number of suspects, and quite frankly didn't know what to do. Is that conceiveable? could it be possible H-bach was in over his head, needed help, was too proud, so, in frustration, convinced himself and other's that Cooper must have died?

Let me put it this way. If you were going to throw out some piece of junk your wife wanted to keep, you sure as heck wouldn't do it by itself. You'd loose it in a box of other junk and take it right to the curb. For forensics to have solved the other cases he'd have had to have a "suspect", and not one in a box by the curb. I don't buy the "number" of suspects because you work and manage that number by the evidence. And in simple robbery cases there could only be too many suspects because anyone can rob a liquor store. Not everyone can do what Cooper did. Buuuttt...if someone were to make that point, he'd convince them that Copper was "not a skilled skydiver" anyway. Or...at least so says his plane stealing, armed robbery convicted, kicked out of airports, World Champion skydiving drinking buddy :laugh:

Obviously, there weren't any other cases like this one, but, in the hard cases, did he solve them? or was it the lab? by accident? etc.

It would be awful hard not to have solved this one by accident, or at least by being thorough.

I know in one of H-bach's quotes he states that this wasn't his "only" unsolved case when he retired. I wonder how many "others" there were, and if the Portland office was hiding H-bach in the "hijacking" department, since the odds of a hijacking in Portland were almost nill, considering the majority of jacks in the 60's were in the south to Cuba. Interesting.

How do you hide someone on a case with national interest for 10 years? Not just "public" national interest but DOJ interest from the highest levels in Washington?

It still comes down to the same question:

I don't know. But I'd sure like to know just how LONG he's known Ted.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Yes, but isn't this pretty much what happened in this one? I think at least 12 on the very night and countless thereafter "ratted out" the perp. And we still don't know if a print from the stairwell or the intercom phone matches good 'ol Teddy boy (if one was left and hasn't been lost today) but we sure could have back then.

Don't forget, the fingerprints in the 70's were done manually, so, we didn't have AFIS to match prints with the system. I don't understand why nobody in the FBI thought to run the prints through AFIS, once it was up and running in the early 90's.

As for calls, we don't know for certain, but, I would assume that 99% of the calls suggesting Teddy boy for Cooper would be from people who knew he was a world champion skydiver. I doubt any of the calls that night, had specific knowledge of the plan.

I seriously doubt to this day, that he has told anyone of his possible involvement in this crime. Since H-bach never bothered to call anyone back, we don't know. But, the guy I tried to break for years, would not give up anything. However, if I was the Bureau, I sure would like to talk to his ex-wives. Some men will talk, for certain reasons. :blowkiss:

I don't buy the "number" of suspects because you work and manage that number by the evidence. And in simple robbery cases there could only be too many suspects because anyone can rob a liquor store. Not everyone can do what Cooper did. :laugh:

True to a point. In a simple robbery, bank robbery, I seriously doubt that the fBI is being enudated with tips from the public to the extent of this case. I would think that hardly "any" tips would be called in, unless, the case was shown on tv, or in the newspaper.

In this case, I'll bet the FBI had a list of suspects at least 50 long before the end of the weekend. This case hit the CBS evening news, and all major newspapers on that Friday. I'll bet the FBI was getting tips from around the country. I'll bet none of h-bach's other cases had the media coverge of this one. Plus, H-bach had to give a daily report to Washington on the progress of the case.

Sure, H-bach made some horrendous mistakes in this case, but, I still think he was overwhelmed with the number of tips. Given this, and him not lacking in self-confidence, he probably thought he could simply "skip" necessary steps before eliminating suspects, which may have bit him in the butt. And then, like an angel, Teddy calls, and offer his assistance.

It would be awful hard not to have solved this one by accident, or at least by being thorough.

Absolutely, for 99% of FBI agents, and for everyone who reads this thread. In our case, we have an "objective" view, and we also have some "extensive" research done by two freelance investigators in Portland. Sure, H-bach could have found the same evidence. But, he would have had to actually work, go to courthouses, libraries, talk to P.O's, etc. That is much harder than driving to Southern Oregon, and checking out a tip on a retired man who is selling fishing equipment. Plus, those guys who sell fishing equipment, they are known to have a shaddy past.

Don't forget, much of the information we have learned took numerous manhours to obtain. IF H-bach investigated each and every suspect with the same vigor, he would have only been able to investigate about 1 or 2 suspects per week, maximum. Maybe he had 100, or 200 suspects, so, maybe he cut corners, and like I said, it ended up costing him big time.

Plus, don't you think, that somewhere in H-bach's mind, that he was thinking Cooper was laying in the woods, hurt from the jump, and looking for shelter? Sure, it sounds stupid to think such a thing now, but, if the G-men sent 400 troops to search the dropzone for 4 weeks in March of 1972, something tells me that someone high up in the FBI believed Cooper had died during the jump. Obviously, it was a stupid thought, since Cooper would have been found within one week after the jump had he died, given the flight data recorder, radar, and the search.

(note: Do you realize that the search alone of the projected dropzone, performed by US Army soldiers from Ft. Lewis, 400 of them, for about one month, cost taxpayers anywhere from $500,000 - $ 800,000 in manpower. Plus, put all the FBI manpower, etc, I'll bet the fbi has spent at least $2,000,000 investigating this case, in today's dollars. That is twice the amount, in today's dollars, that Cooper obtained from Northwest, and about 200 times what it cost us personally to solve the case)

How do you hide someone on a case with national interest for 10 years? Not just "public" national interest but DOJ interest from the highest levels in Washington?

LIke I mentioned a few paragraphs earlier, I don't think Portland ever expected to get a "hijacking" in their town. Why in the world would Portland ever be a target. Back in the 70's, all the jacks were from southern routes, and the planes were taken to Florida. What I'm suggesting, is that maybe H-bach was hidden from "active" cases, and told to 'read" up on hijackings, just in case. Then the big one hit, and he was the one pre-assigned, everyone thought the case would be a piece of cake to solve, and there wouldn't be any problems. Once the case was assigned to him, they were stuck.

Who knows, maybe H-bach wasn't rotated off this case because the Head Agent didn't want Washington to notice that Portland had no leads in the case, and needed help. Wouldn't rotating H-bach off this case show Washington that Portland was not close to solving the case? Just like in the real world, how many lower level offices will admit to their bosses in another city that they are in need of help, and are clueless to solving the case. So, who knows, maybe the higher up's in Portland came up with the idea of Cooper splatting in the forest, to take the pressure of not solving the case off their backs from Washington. Just a thought.

I don't know. But I'd sure like to know just how LONG he's known Ted.

I'd love to know that answer. I'd also like to know why H-bach played a part in getting Teddy kicked out of Aurora, some two years before the jack. Was this part of the plan? Two years in advance? Why would someone do this to a friend? I don't see how this shows that Ted and H-bach were friends. Needless to say, this is the "only" hijacking in history, where the lead suspect, and the FBI agent in charge of the investigation knew of each other before the hijacking. It does seem to be more than a coincidence, just like the other 20 things that this case and Teddy have in common. Did
Teddy use this to his advantage, or..


LIke I've said a million times, I have not made any conclusions regarding Teddy and H-bach's relationship/cooper case. However, there are explanations for why H-bach didn't solve the case, and I sure hope these explanations are true. I would rather have a thief get away with a crime, that have a "dirty" agent. LIke I said, right now, I am giving h-bach the benefit of the doubt, because I have zero evidence suggesting otherwise, but, I have not closed the case, nor my mind.

 

[aussie_mum]

This thread is so interesting. I really shouldn't leave it so long between visits, because I always have so many pages to get caught up on.

 

[Old Dominion]

Don't forget, the fingerprints in the 70's were done manually, so, we didn't have AFIS to match prints with the system. I don't understand why nobody in the FBI thought to run the prints through AFIS, once it was up and running in the early 90's.

Matching Teddy's prints in 71 with what they had from 305 wouln't require AFIS. The FBI may have run 305's through AFIS, but we wouldn't know because it's an ongoing investigation, and we can't be sure that Cooper's prints were ever lifted.

As for calls, we don't know for certain, but, I would assume that 99% of the calls suggesting Teddy boy for Cooper would be from people who knew he was a world champion skydiver. I doubt any of the calls that night, had specific knowledge of the plan.

Maybe, but but many of those could also have been from people who REALLY know him and what he's capable of. They probably know as savvy as he is that he wouldn't even attempt something like this unless he had an "air tight alibi". Errrr...right H-B? :blushing:

True to a point. In a simple robbery, bank robbery, I seriously doubt that the fBI is being enudated with tips from the public to the extent of this case. I would think that hardly "any" tips would be called in, unless, the case was shown on tv, or in the newspaper.

Yes but it works both ways. Any bank robbery that the FBI would be involved in would have to cross states, otherwise it would be handled by local LE. This would also make the news in many localities. Since there are any number of criminals who could rob a bank, there could be quite a few call ins.

Don't forget, much of the information we have learned took numerous manhours to obtain. IF H-bach investigated each and every suspect with the same vigor, he would have only been able to investigate about 1 or 2 suspects per week, maximum. Maybe he had 100, or 200 suspects, so, maybe he cut corners, and like I said, it ended up costing him big time.

That's why there's a thing we call methodology. Most of us do this naturally, but I believe that the FBI even teaches this . You do not bird-dog every lead necessarily. You work what you've got after categorizing it for priority and then when it doesn't produce you reassess. Oh I forgot, if he did that he wouldn't have been able to throw Teddy in a pile of cards labeled "eliminated and never to return to the deck".

Plus, don't you think, that somewhere in H-bach's mind, that he was thinking Cooper was laying in the woods, hurt from the jump, and looking for shelter?

I think that maybe in H-B's mind he sure hoped he could convince the public and FBI to see it this way.

Who knows, maybe H-bach wasn't rotated off this case because the Head Agent didn't want Washington to notice that Portland had no leads in the case, and needed help. Wouldn't rotating H-bach off this case show Washington that Portland was not close to solving the case?

Well, I KNOW that being on it for years and producing nothing must have sent a pretty strong message to Washington. Remember the status reports he filed daily/weekley? Not to mention the fact that Julius would have to answer to someone in Wash. about progress.

What better way for Julius to show Washington he's serious about results than to pull the seemingly hapless H-B off the case?

I'd also like to know why H-bach played a part in getting Teddy kicked out of Aurora, some two years before the jack. Was this part of the plan? Two years in advance? Why would someone do this to a friend? I don't see how this shows that Ted and H-bach were friends.

I know of parents who have kicked their over 18 children out of the house for doing stupid things. It's called "tough love", and it happens. I sure enjoyed the fact that one of them made sure that KOIN was aware of this, especially since their relationship would be brought to light.



OD

 

[leftcoast]

Matching Teddy's prints in 71 with what they had from 305 wouln't require AFIS. The FBI may have run 305's through AFIS, but we wouldn't know because it's an ongoing investigation, and we can't be sure that Cooper's prints were ever lifted.

My point was that in 1971, the FBI would need a suspect first, then, the FBI would have to obtain the suspect's fingerprints through their booking file in local or federal jails, military records, etc, and a fingerprint specialist would physically compare the "points" to see if they had a match. It was a tedious process.

After AFIS, the FBI could have simply run the 67 unidentified prints through AFIS, and looked for a hit on any of the latent prints. Once the FBI gets a hit, the fingerprint cards are then manually checked for "points" against the prints lifted from the crime scene.

Hence, in 1971, you need a suspect first, then you check the prints, whereas, today, the prints run through the FBI and state databases may have resulted in a "hit".

So, hypothetically, if Cooper "left" a print, the FBI would have needed to manually check the prints with the suspects. I don't know if the FBI has ever checked the 67 prints with the top 20 suspects. One would think this has been done, but, since, Teddy was "never" a suspect, his prints would have not been checked back in the 70's.

Again, we "don't" know if Cooper left a print. It is highly unlikely, especially since the tech's. only spent 9 hours processing that plane before releasing it to Northwest Airlines. Plus, Cooper was known to be careful in leaving evidence, by taking the empty matchbook, and supposedly wiping down his glass in which he drank.

Maybe, but but many of those could also have been from people who REALLY know him and what he's capable of. They probably know as savvy as he is that he wouldn't even attempt something like this unless he had an "air tight alibi". Errrr...right H-B? :blushing:

Exactly right. H-bach not calling back tipsters is inexcuseable. Especially, when the case was stalled. Instead of eating "peanuts", H-bach should have been calling back "all" tipsters and asking why they phoned in, and thanking them for calling in the tip.

Just think. One of the tips could have been from a neighbor at the boathouse, or the guy who was repossessing the plane, or the guy who had a 45 stuck in his face, or the guy who fired Teddy, or the guy who Teddy threatened to "kill" in Donald, or anybody who knew him well. Heck, H-bach even admits that Ted was a man that he "knew by name and reputation". One could assume the word reputation has some type of implied meaning.

H-bach not calling back tipsters is beyond the realm of incompetent. IF you have a suspect, and are ready for an arrest, than ok. Otherwise, it was as if the "tipsters" were wasting time. And LE wonders why people don't call in tips.

Yes but it works both ways. Any bank robbery that the FBI would be involved in would have to cross states, otherwise it would be handled by local LE. This would also make the news in many localities. Since there are any number of criminals who could rob a bank, there could be quite a few call ins.

Actually, I believe the FBI has jurisdiction in bank robberies, even if they don't cross state lines, because the "money" is federally insured. If someone robs a liquor store, it is a "local" LE case. IF someone robs a bank, it is usually handled by the FBI in conjunction with the local police. There was some talk years ago of dropping "bank robberies" from the responsibility of the FBI, but, I don't think it went through.

Well, I KNOW that being on it for years and producing nothing must have sent a pretty strong message to Washington. Remember the status reports he filed daily/weekley? Not to mention the fact that Julius would have to answer to someone in Wash. about progress.

Right. That is my point. Instead of telling Washington, hey, we have no "good" leads, maybe, someone high up in the Portland office, or H-bach during a "brainstorming" session, came up with the idea that Cooper died. Think about it. Cooper dying during the jump is a perfect story. It tells the public that you can't get away with the crime, and it gets Wash. off of Portland's back.

However, I don't believe for one second that Washington DC believed that Cooper died during the jump. Actions speak louder than words. I just can't imagine leaving an agent active on a case for 8 years, having the brainstorming session in 1975, getting an indictment in 1976, and digging up the beach in 1980. All of this for a dead man? PLease. I think the "big Splatt" theory was public relations. Cooper is dead until we say different, and if the FBI catches him, then he is alive.

What better way for Julius to show Washington he's serious about results than to pull the seemingly hapless H-B off the case?

Absolutely agree. Or it you want to save face, why not add a partner, or a task force. Something to make Washington, and the public know this case is being worked, and will be solved.

I just don't understand where Julius was while this whole thing was going on. I realize that "most" heads of offices are strictly admin., but, with all that publicity, all the searches, why wouldn't the FBI assume the most likely, that Cooper was overlooked.

And why didn't Julius once in 8 years ask H-bach, "well, what did the FA's have to say about it"?

AS you stated earlier, I wonder if Juilius was aware of H-bach and Teddy's relationship before DB, and after? If not, he missed the boat (the one parked in the dock across from the airport in 1971)


Note:

I just don't understand this case: On the first anniversary of the crime, after the dropzone had been thoroughly searched by 400 army troops for six weeks, and no Cooper, why didn't the Portland FBI have a "plan B"?

Why wasn't a brainstorming session held, with Tom Manning, Harold Campbell, Tina Mucklow, Florence Schaffner, H-bach, Matteson, and why didn't the FBI spend a couple of days just going over the case, the description, and the top suspects?

I just don't get it. One of two things happened in this case.

The FBI, and more specifically H-bach, had an arrogant attitude, that there was "no way" he overlooked Cooper during his investigation, or

The search was "purposely" sent on a "wild goose chase" by one of the parties involved, either intentionally, or not.

This was "not" the perfect crime. Close, but, I think the Brink's case was much harder to solve, and the FBI couldn't solve that one either. One of the participants ended up ratting out his buddies after he was sent to prison on a different rap.

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[Niner]

It's as if H-bach was trying to eliminate people as fast as possible, just to get to Cooper. Little did he know, that in doing this, you most likely already passed on Cooper, and it doesn't matter how many more suspects you look at, you will never catch the perp., once he is eliminated. Hello.

Quote: Originally Posted by niner
I think so too... H-bach screwed up.... :doh:

Quote - originally Posted by LC:
Yes, I think that is the most likely scenario. Unless OD or someone can come up with a convincing motive. I know it looks impossible, that it is simply a screw up, but, most screw ups do look stupid in retrospect.

and this was his "stupid" move!

Of course, if we find that H-bach had a perfect record with the FBI, had solved all of his cases, and then bought a new plane right after the hijacking, then, maybe, I will change my opinion. Trust me, I haven't ruled out anything in this case. WE have seen in other cases, like Hansen, that "everyone" is capable of anything. Sometimes motives are not easily determined, and are only known to the players.

sorry - Hansen?? who's that?
TIA! (thanks in advance!)

 

[Niner]

Well....let's just say that I think one of the FBI's former "finest" could use a little 'vestigation of his own. I think old "lobster face" could probably play a mean game of cards.

OD

I agree with you OLD! someone should check out his former cases... as LC said - H-bach did say":
I know in one of H-bach's quotes he states that this wasn't his "only" unsolved case when he retired.

would be interesting to find out...

 

[Niner]

snip...
Yes, but isn't this pretty much what happened in this one? I think at least 12 on the very night and countless thereafter "ratted out" the perp. And we still don't know if a print from the stairwell or the intercom phone matches good 'ol Teddy boy (if one was left and hasn't been lost today) but we sure could have back then.

True - forensics has come a LONG way!! Wonder if they "saved" the intercome/stairwell? LC - you meantioned FBI lifted prints - I'm soooo tempted in calling the Portland FBI and asking!! LOL! Then to match his (ted's) up with the unknown ones - maybe I'll om Scandi - she talked to them already!! Maybe they'll give her a hint or something!??!

Obviously, there weren't any other cases liek this one, but, in the hard cases, did he solve them? or was it the lab? by accident? etc.

quote from OD:
It would be awful hard not to have solved this one by accident, or at least by being thorough.

good point OD!!

I know in one of the H-bachs' quotes he states that this wasnt' his "only" unsolved case when he retired. I wonder how many "others" there were, and if the Portland office was hiding H-bach in the "hijacking" dept. since the odds of a hijacking in Portland were almost nill, considering the majority of jacks in the 60's were in the south to Cuba. Intereesting.

Originally quote OD:
How do you hide someone on a case with national interest for 10 years? Not just "public" national interest but DOJ interest from the highest levels in Washington?

and good question??!!

 

[Niner]

snip...
In this case, I'll bet the FBI had a list of suspects at least 50 long before the end of the weekend. This case hit the CBS evening news, and all major newspapers on that Friday. I'll bet the FBI was getting tips from around the country. I'll bet none of h-bach's other cases had the media coverge of this one. Plus, H-bach had to give a daily report to Washington on the progress of the case.

Sure, H-bach made some horrendous mistakes in this case, but, I still think he was overwhelmed with the number of tips. Given this, and him not lacking in self-confidence, he probably thought he could simply "skip" necessary steps before eliminating suspects, which may have bit him in the butt. And then, like an angel, Teddy calls, and offer his assistance.

yes overwhelmed for sure! just 'skipped' over possible suspects ? even thought people DID call in his name?? doesn't sound like a very good investigation to me - I really don't think H-bach & Teddy were in this together... but that's just my opinion...

by the way - that sketch from '88 (I believe) of DB and the '74 piicture of Teddy - looks good to me!!

sorry for all the grouped posts here, but I usually print out what I haven't read and make notes to comment on later when I get to a computer...

 

[Niner]

snip...
Note:

I just don't understand this case: On the first anniversary of the crime, after the dropzone had been thoroughly searched by 400 army troops for six weeks, and no Cooper, why didn't the Portland FBI have a "plan B"?

Why wasn't a brainstorming session held, with Tom Manning, Harold Campbell, Tina Mucklow, Florence Schaffner, H-bach, Matteson, and why didn't the FBI spend a couple of days just going over the case, the description, and the top suspects?

I just don't get it. One of two things happened in this case.

The FBI, and more specifically H-bach, had an arrogant attitude, that there was "no way" he overlooked Cooper during his investigation, or

The search was "purposely" sent on a "wild goose chase" by one of the parties involved, either intentionally, or not.

This was "not" the perfect crime. Close, but, I think the Brink's case was much harder to solve, and the FBI couldn't solve that one either. One of the participants ended up ratting out his buddies after he was sent to prison on a different rap.

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I too don't get it... good points LC!!

and has anyone heard from Scandi?? Noticed she's been "missing" for a while here...

 

[leftcoast]

sorry - Hansen?? who's that?
TIA! (thanks in advance!)

Hey Niner:

Sorry. But, "Hansen", is Robert Hansen, the former disgraced FBI agent who sold secrets to the former Soviet Union in the 80's, and was eventually caught by the FBI in the early 90's.

Something odd, the FBI knew they had a "mole", and the FBI put Hansen in charge of finding the mole. Interesting, but, it is sad.

A movie about Hansen was made recently, starring Ryan Phillippe, called "Breach". Not a bad movie, it just came out of DVD, a few weeks ago. There is also a good book about it.

Hansen led a double life. He went to Catholic church everyday, had a wife, and numerous kids. Yet, the other Hansen, was selling secrets to the Soviet Union, and was responsible for "numerous" double agents being killed as a result to him "tipping off" the Soviets.

He is serving a life sentence in a federal prison. I believe the one in Colorado.

Funny thing, the only way he was caught, after selling secrets for at least 10 years, was because of the fall of the former Soviet Union, and one of the former KGB agents, sold the fBI the "mole" for like 7 million dollars. Without the KGB agent, who knows if Hansen would have ever been caught, and how much more damage he would have done to our country.

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[leftcoast]

True - forensics has come a LONG way!! Wonder if they "saved" the intercome/stairwell? LC - you meantioned FBI lifted prints - I'm soooo tempted in calling the Portland FBI and asking!! LOL! Then to match his (ted's) up with the unknown ones - maybe I'll om Scandi - she talked to them already!! Maybe they'll give her a hint or something!??!

Niner:

I don't think the fBI saved the stairwell, the seats, or the intercom.

I do know the stairwell had to be replaced/or fixed, since it was damaged after it landed in Reno. I don't know if Boeing simply replaced the stairwell, or repaired the damage.

I doubt any prints were on the stairwell, since I'm sure Cooper brought gloves with in order to jump. However, it still would be been prudent for the fBI to save that stairwell (since Cooper could have also used the railing when he boarded via the aftstairs in Portland) , phone, and the row of seats Cooper was sitting in. However, I don't think it was done.

AS for the prints, don't know if the FBI has tried to match them against Teddy's.

AS for calling the Portland FBI, the more people that call the Portland FBI, the better chance we have that they at least know about Teddy, and our suspicions. You never know if the fBI has taken a "tip" seriously, or is simply filing tips away. The old saying, the "squeaky wheel gets the grease", just may apply here. Plus, the more people who are convinced of the evidence, and the side by side sketch/picture, the better chance of results. imo

As for Scandi, I just don't know what happened.

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