WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[AlwaysShocked]

What about the possibility that H-bach was just outright "in on it" all along? And that you are VERY right about the passing of the note while still in Portland to ensure that H-bach would get the case.

It would explain a lot of apparently unexplainable things.

 

[Old Dominion]

What about the possibility that H-bach was just outright "in on it" all along? And that you are VERY right about the passing of the note while still in Portland to ensure that H-bach would get the case.

It would explain a lot of apparently unexplainable things.

AS,

I agree. What is also "unexplainable" to me is how Teddy would have known about the FBI's "ground rule". Then he would have had to have COUNTED on H-B making every mistake in the book, even after everyone was pointing at TM. Then all the theories...the Washougal, "Big Splat", gets a case opened on that con artist Weber at the request of his wife.

Another thing, just how would a 20 year vet of the Bureau be in a position to be given a case like this if he's performed this poorly all his career? His evals would have had him in the FBI kitchen peeling potatoes. H-B is even quoted as saying that he had a "successful" career and put many perps behind bars. If true, it's hard to imagine that they all just came to him and stuck out their wrists so He could just slap the bracelets on.

OD

OD

 

[leftcoast]

What about the possibility that H-bach was just outright "in on it" all along? And that you are VERY right about the passing of the note while still in Portland to ensure that H-bach would get the case.

It would explain a lot of apparently unexplainable things.

Thanks for agreeing about the note being purposely passed while the plane was on the ground in Portland. I don't think that point was ever thought of by the FBI.

I think you raise a "very" plausible scenario. I always try to think the best of everyone, but, we all know that is a possibility.

I do understand how it does look very suspicious. With H-bach not investigating the most likely suspect, steering the investigation even while he is retired, etc.

I wish I had some proof. For example, if h-bach and Teddy had been friends since the hijacking, or if H-bach had a significant change in his lifestyle. I do know that according to H-bach, he hasn't physically seen Teddy since 1972.

But, I agree this is possible. I think the current FBI needs to interview both Teddy and H-bach, and see what is up. At the least, H-bach needs to explain a lot. For example, why he didn't call back tipsters, why he didn't call the fbi in 2001, why he allowed a convicted felon to assist, etc.

After what we see on tv every night, I think it should be pursued. Like I said earlier, I haven't run across any solid evidence which clearly points that way. Trust me, I want to find evidence which points that way, because it would explain a lot of things, but I just haven't seen anything solid. Of course, only a thorough examination of financial records, polygraphs, interviews, etc, would be needed to do a thorough investigation.

My point is simple. What kind of success rate did H-bach have on his cases while in the FBI? If H-bach had a low success rate, would that point more toward incompetence? What if H-bach had a reputation of not being a good detective among other agents, would that change your opinion? I just don't know the answers, nor do I know why the agent in charge of Portland would put an inferior agent in charge of such an important case. I wish Julius Matteson, the agent in charge was still alive, for he would have a lot of answers.

another thing. I think at a minimum, the FBI needs to get every agent who has been assigned to this case since 1980, in one room and hear what they have to say. There have been at least 5 different agents assigned to this case. I would love to hear what they have to say. I can just about guarantee that Teddy's name came up during each of their time as the agent in charge of this case. Did H-bach talk them out of investigating him? What is their take? etc. I really do think that the FBI;s internal affairs, needs to take a look at this case. Like I said, I think it is up and up, but, maybe new procedures need to be in place to avoid such a disaster happening again.

So, my conclusion is that I think it is possible, but not probable. The minute I see one piece of solid evidence, talk of money being paid, etc. I would certainly change my opinion. I just think there are valid arguments on both sides of whether he is guilty or not. And since he is an FBI agent, and not a convicted felon, I must give him the benefit of the doubt. So, in my book, he either never belonged in the position of a FBI agent, or he is responsible for something much, much worse, and possibly criminal. There have always been dirty cops, and there always will be, but, I'm just not sure this is one of those cases. However, it definitely should be pursued.

LIke I said earlier, I think Internal Affairs needs to be involved in this investigation. You know, the army, and most government agencies don't like it when certain high ranking officers are in the same location for a long period of time. Why? IT leads to corruption. Question is, was there corruption, or just plain lazy, stupid decisions made by one agent.


left

 

[leftcoast]

AS,

I agree. What is also "unexplainable" to me is how Teddy would have known about the FBI's "ground rule". Then he would have had to have COUNTED on H-B making every mistake in the book, even after everyone was pointing at TM. Then all the theories...the Washougal, "Big Splat", gets a case opened on that con artist Weber at the request of his wife.

Another thing, just how would a 20 year vet of the Bureau be in a position to be given a case like this if he's performed this poorly all his career? His evals would have had him in the FBI kitchen peeling potatoes. H-B is even quoted as saying that he had a "successful" career and put many perps behind bars. If true, it's hard to imagine that they all just came to him and stuck out their wrists so He could just slap the bracelets on.

OD

OD

OD

I don't think you have to be in LE to know the ground rule. Isn't it possible since Teddy was in the klink, that he knew of that rule. Plus, maybe, H-bach mentioned to him that he was in charge of any crimes occurring in Portland airspace. OR, maybe he just figured it out since he was a pilot and knew the rules of aviation

As for H=bach's career, as I mentioned above, it would be interesting to see his success rate. I think h-bach was put in charge of hijackings because he was one of two pilots in the Portland office. Many government offices use senority over merit, which I never agree with.

One thing I can tell you, is that many government organizations "hide" inferior employees until they retire and get their pensions. It is almost impossible in some government jobs to fire inferior employees, as for the FBI, I'm not sure how that works.

To me, while I have considered H-bach being in on it, here is the bigger question.

Why didn't any of the other fBI employees go over H-bach's head, and demand that Ted be investigated?

Why didn't H-bach's boss look over the list of suspects?

Why wasn't h-bach rotated off?

Where was the FAA agent who got Ted kicked out of Aurora airport?

I wonder if EC thought of Ted, and offered him as a potential suspect.

Why didn't the new agents after 1980 investigate TEd when tips came in?

Why wasn't Ted re-investigated after he was nailed for stealing a plane in 1976? I can't believe the FAA or FBI agent who nailed Ted in 1976, couldn't put two and two together.

Did the FBI and FAA look at all small planes stolen in the past few years, and see if maybe a "chop shop" was being run in Sheridan? If not, talk about incompetence.

Why wasn't Ted looked at in 1994, when he had a run-in with the FAA, and they were at war, again. Where were the FAA agents? Everybody in the northwest knows about Cooper, and none of them suspected TEd after all the crimes he committed from 1976 until 1994?

So, while I understand why everybody is justly concerned about wrong-doing, one does have to wonder where the rest of the Federal agency enforcement teams were during this period of time.

Why didn't the IRS investigate Ted and his skydiving school? Are you telling me that Ted's IRS records indicate a man can live the life he lived with the little revenue a skydiving school brings in? Please? When the FAA was after Ted in the 70's, 80's, and 90's, why weren't his tax records examined with a microscope? How does a guy with zero money, armed robbery conviction, get his own airport, airplanes, building, and this in a crappy 8 month of the year business, and the IRS never gets a sniff of wrong doing?

So, I do think there are many, many, people along the way who dropped the ball in this case. While I haven't ruled out H-bach, I do wonder where everyone else was while this reckless man was being convicted of crimes, having people die on his property, and nobody noticed a darn thing?


left

 

[Old Dominion]

OD

I don't think you have to be in LE to know the ground rule. Isn't it possible since Teddy was in the klink, that he knew of that rule. Plus, maybe, H-bach mentioned to him that he was in charge of any crimes occurring in Portland airspace. Just a guess. Also, I knew the rule, and I'm not a cop, nor have I been arrested.

Maybe, but that's assuming that it's a hard and fast rule. Is it? The crime also occurred in Seattle airspace, in fact the majority of it, since most of the time was spent there, including the money and chutes. It originated in Portland airspace, but he would still have had to have known for sure.

As for H=bach's career, as I mentioned above, it would be interesting to see his success rate. I think h-bach was put in charge of hijackings because he was one of two pilots in the Portland office. Many government offices use senority over merit, which I never agree with.

I think you'll agree that being a pilot might help, but I'd rather see a good or well respected, methodical agent take any case considered "special" rather than a specialist who doesn't cut it. Let this case be a good example. Just as an example, the Richard Jewel case could have been assigned to an FBI agent considered to be a "bomb" specialist and we know what happened. Had a case like that been assigned to a good investigator who could call upon other "experts" when needed, Jewel may never have been the fiasco it was. Keep in mind that I don't know that is what happened but I used that as a hypothetical to demonstrate my point.

One thing I can tell you, is that many government organizations "hide" inferior employees until they retire and get their pensions. It is almost impossible in some government jobs to fire inferior employees, as for the FBI, I'm not sure how that works.

I'm guessing they would probably move them to other positions better suited, like back ground investigations, or allow them to train as Poly operators etc.

To me, while I have considered H-bach being in on it, here is the bigger question.

Why didn't any of the other fBI employees go over H-bach's head, and demand that Ted be investigated?

Why didn't H-bach's boss look over the list of suspects?

Why wasn't h-bach rotated off?

Why didn't the new agents after 1980 investigate TEd when tips came in?

We've been asking these questions for quite some time. I remember quite a discussion on this some time ago on another board, land, time. It is hard to imagine that he could have been left on the case so long. I believe that it's possible that it's a combination of things, one being that H-B steers a good case. I also believe he sings a good song, and dances a good dance. Somehow, without writing a dissertation I think that could explain part of it. A willingness of the powers that were at the time to buy it, and re-buy it, is possibly another.

Why didn't the IRS investigate Ted and his skydiving school? Are you telling me that Ted's IRS records indicate a man can live the life he lived with the little revenue a skydiving school brings in? Please? When the FAA was after Ted in the 70's, 80's, and 90's, why weren't his tax records examined with a microscope? How does a guy with zero money, armed robbery conviction, get his own airport, airplanes, building, and this in a crappy 8 month of the year business, and the IRS never gets a sniff of wrong doing?

The answer is that as long as the IRS gets it's cut, it doesn't care. As a CPA you no doubt have read tax forms and understand that the IRS is interested in collecting revenue from all sources. They even state that even if it's from illegal sources you must declare it. Not that they condone it, but the IRS always gets its cut, they're not really interested in justice, just collecting revenues. In the case of the property he owned, once it was purchased, as long as he paid his taxes, and his fair share, which I'm sure he was smart enough to do, he stayed out of hot water. As the old saying goes, it would be better to have the FBI on your back than the IRS .


OldDom

 

[leftcoast]

Not that I have concluded H-bach is innocent, here are a few quotes from his book which may suggest how incompetent this investigation was done, and how incorrectly some were investigated.

pg 58:

"most of the early calls were from person ssuggesting suspects. And, most of those calls could be quickly eliminated, in turn, by details known to authorities."

"one of the factors that quickly eliminated many of the skydivers suggested as suspects was age. Most of those suggested were young men. Cooper had been described as approaching middle age, certainly well within the range of WWII or later vet".

then on page. 128 it states "suppose he was not a parachutist, and was in average to good physical condition for a man in his late 30's to 40's."

So, it appears that Sherlock Holmes was eliminating tips solely based on age.

This is unbelieveable. No wonder why there were 1,000 suspects. None of them was checked out properly, so, it allowed h-bach to scratch them off the list, and have a "power" lunch.

I can't believe that private citizens take the time and effort to call in a tip, give the FBI a name, etc, and H-bach doesn't even run the guy, interview him, or ask for an alibi, or if the suspect knows anything, and simply crosses off his name because he is too young!!!! What week at Quantico do they teach this method?

Then, later in his book, it is suggested that Cooper could have been in his upper 30's to 40's, and it remains in print. What is up with that?

After reveiwing this case, I know this case was not just incompetent related to Teddy boy, it was incompetent for everyone. Of course, intentional incompetence is always a possibility, but, why would one admit of his severe lack of following SOP's?

The question I want answered from H-bach, is where was the cut-off for investigating due to age? Was it 45, 40, 35, 30 etc? Because if it was 40, why was McCoy even considered? This case is an embarassment. Even if Teddy is not responsible, I'm not convinced that the real Cooper was passed over due to incompetence. And this guy instructed Portland Police officers as part of his assignement. What was taught? How to improperly investigate a case, allow a guilty man to stay free, and write a book about how you didn't catch the guy?

After learning just about every detail of this case, I do wonder if other famous "cold cases", such as "Zodiac", were the result of incompetence, or were the cases really that difficult to solve? Make me wonder.

left

 

[leftcoast]

Maybe, but that's assuming that it's a hard and fast rule. Is it? The crime also occurred in Seattle airspace, in fact the majority of it, since most of the time was spent there, including the money and chutes. It originated in Portland airspace, but he would still have had to have known for sure.

No, I dont' think it is a hard and fast rule. Actually, either Portland, Seattle, or Reno could have been in charge of the case. But, since, Cooper boarded in Portland, handed the note in Portland, it was Portland that got the case, even though Portland is a much smaller office than Seattle. I think Cooper boarding in Portland also played a huge part, but the defining factor was the note being handed on Portland soil. Plus, with Cooper jumping just north of Portland, it would also tend to point at Portland. But, yes, I think it is a case by case decision.

I think you'll agree that being a pilot might help, but I'd rather see a good or well respected, methodical agent take any case considered "special" rather than a specialist who doesn't cut it. Let this case be a good example. Just as an example, the Richard Jewel case could have been assigned to an FBI agent considered to be a "bomb" specialist and we know what happened. Had a case like that been assigned to a good investigator who could call upon other "experts" when needed, Jewel may never have been the fiasco it was. Keep in mind that I don't know that is what happened but I used that as a hypothetical to demonstrate my point.

True, some people are well spoken, but don't have a clue in life. H-bach comes across in interviews as being well-educated and does come across as intelligent. However, one's vocabulary, or how good of a public speaker they may be, does not make one a good FBI agent. Solving cases, the most efficient and effective way, does make a good investigator, and from what I have seen in this one case, it doesn't look good.




I'm guessing they would probably move them to other positions better suited, like back ground investigations, or allow them to train as Poly operators etc.

I think background investigations are usually done by new agents, for the first one or two years of their career. But, yes, bad investigators could be re-assigned to positions such as "media consultants", poly-, writing SOP's, be re-assigned to do background checks, or anything that keeps them away from investigations.



We've been asking these questions for quite some time. I remember quite a discussion on this some time ago on another board, land, time. It is hard to imagine that he could have been left on the case so long. I believe that it's possible that it's a combination of things, one being that H-B steers a good case. I also believe he sings a good song, and dances a good dance. Somehow, without writing a dissertation I think that could explain part of it. A willingness of the powers that were at the time to buy it, and re-buy it, is possibly another.

He does sing a good song, dance a good dance, but results are what matters. One just has to wonder what type of supervision H-bach was under during this time. Another thing, with such a huge case, why wasn't H-bach paired with another FBI agent. It just seems that two heads are better than one. There is a reason why Homicide has two investigators, and it is so that one of the investigators doesn't get tunnel vision, and it also cuts down on corruption.


The answer is that as long as the IRS gets it's cut, it doesn't care. As a CPA you no doubt have read tax forms and understand that the IRS is interested in collecting revenue from all sources. They even state that even if it's from illegal sources you must declare it. Not that they condone it, but the IRS always gets its cut, they're not really interested in justice, just collecting revenues. In the case of the property he owned, once it was purchased, as long as he paid his taxes, and his fair share, which I'm sure he was smart enough to do, he stayed out of hot water. As the old saying goes, it would be better to have the FBI on your back than the IRS .


OldDom

True, the IRS is simply interested in getting their cut. What I was talking about is the following. IF you really piss someone off in the federal government, and they can't get a conviction for a more serious crime, they will usually tear apart your financial life. For example, Al Capone. So, if the FAA had this war going on with Teddy, why didn't the FAA ask the IRs to do a special audit of his returns and make sure his income is on the up and up. How hard is it to determine that a truck driver is able to quit his job, live like a playboy, in a horrible industry such as skydiving. Sure, maybe Teddy padded the number of jumps to show some type of income to keep the IRS off his back, but, did his income show how a man was able to live the lifestlye he was living back in the 70's? I say no. A perfect example is the stolen plane. It is obvious that the skydiving business, lack of full time job, airplanes, building he constructed in 1973, started to deplete his possible windfall from 1971. Hence, it was time to venture out.

I just think this is a perfect example of how many different federal agencies FAA, FBI, and IRS, who all had an opportunity to tear his life apart and passed. IF you don't audit a convicted armed robber, who all of a sudden is living an upper middle class lifestyle, then who does get audited. Plus, he had a private business, with cash, which is usually a "larger probability" of getting audited or at least reveiwed.


left

 

[Old Dominion]

Actually, either Portland, Seattle, or Reno could have been in charge of the case. But, since, Cooper boarded in Portland, handed the note in Portland, it was Portland that got the case, even though Portland is a much smaller office than Seattle.

That and the fact that Seattle by the 2-3 hour mark was already more familiar with it, as they had done the bird dogging for the money, chutes, etc. The plane was on the ground for some time in Seattle as well. Again Cooper would have had to be sure that just that note hand off ( at the risk of staying grounded as you mentioned) would hand the case to Portland.

Solving cases, the most efficient and effective way, does make a good investigator, and from what I have seen in this one case, it doesn't look good.

The other argument is that simple common sense could make almost anyone a fairly good investigator. Again, it would really be interesting to see how he performed on other cases. Arguably there could be much less glorious cases, like the knock off of a tiny mart where there are no witnesses, the clerk is dead, and no cameras, and no one is talking etc that are far more difficult to solve. If H-B was able to solve cases like these, then again, we've got a problem...actually we've already got a problem.

True, the IRS is simply interested in getting their cut. What I was talking about is the following. IF you really piss someone off in the federal government, and they can't get a conviction for a more serious crime, they will usually tear apart your financial life.
left

I fully agree. But for that to happen you've got to be a suspect. Skydiver, armed robbery, Kicked out of airports, reckless flying and his alibi wasn't even investigated? This guy is begging to be investigated for anyone who even knows a little about him. And for the man who knows a lot about him and was in a position to ask any Govt agency for anything he needed and didn't because...he wasn't even a suspect? WTF? Good investigator, bad investigator, bad week, bad hair day....there just isn't any excuse.

I just think this is a perfect example of how many different federal agencies FAA, FBI, and IRS, who all had an opportunity to tear his life apart and passed. IF you don't audit a convicted armed robber, who all of a sudden is living an upper middle class lifestyle, then who does get audited. Plus, he had a private business, with cash, which is usually a "larger probability" of getting audited or at least reveiwed.

Again, there is one particular Govt employee who's job it was to know this, or get the information and he didn't even consider him a suspect. I just don't think incompetence even comes into the equation.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

No, I do agree from the outside, it is very difficult to believe that any FBI agent could be this incompetent.

That is a good point about Seattle getting the money, chutes, plus negotiating for for 2 hours with Cooper on the ground, does make you wonder why Seattle didn't take the lead.

Of course, while this was going on, the Portland office was tearing apart the airport, looking for witnesses, writing down license plate numbers, etc.

I often wondered why Cooper didn't fly to Spokane early on the 24th, catch flight 305 in Spokane, and hijack it either in the air on the way to Portland, or on the ground in Portland. However, after considering this, a few things came apparent. First, you have to worry about eyewitnesses on the flight to Spokane, and then, you have a larger window of an alibi in which you have to explain away. And of course, the most important part, if the plane was jacked on the way to Portland, it probably would have been either a Spokane or Seattle case, not a Portland case. It was critical that this was a Portland case for obvious reasons. Obviously, he chose the right plan, or we wouldn't be discussing this 35 years later. Plus, just because Cooper boarded in Portland, didn't necessarily mean that he was from Portland. Remember, mccoy flew to Denver, and then started his crime spree after taking off from Denver (not on the ground).

IF you look at this case, with all the circumstantial evidence we have uncovered, it is a no-brainer. Who else could it be?

On the other hand, H-bach is still out there looking for a man who is 47 in 1971, smokes Raleighs, drinks 7/7's, has dark eyes, and was not an experienced skydiver.

Whether it is plain stupidity, or worse, question is, what is the FBI going to do about this case? Will H-bach be doing any more interviews, and if so, will someone like 60 minutes or 20/20 actually ask Teddy and h-bach the questions we all want to know the answers to?

Either way, at least a certain indivual is sleeping a little less sound each night, wondering if the next four door sedan traveling down his rural road is the one coming to pick him up for questioning. It's funny, how not only does Tina and Flo. have to look over the shoulder, but, now, at least Cooper has to be aware, and for that, I guess all the work was worth it.

left

 

[leftcoast]

Again, there is one particular Govt employee who's job it was to know this, or get the information and he didn't even consider him a suspect. I just don't think incompetence even comes into the equation.

OD

Assuming you and AS are correct, what is the motive? When did H-bach know? and why didn't he solve the case?

left

 

[lorann]

Is it possible that sometime in his career, Teddy did some "work" for the government? And although the lives of people were forever changed, the plane was not blown up, people were not shot, etc. Even though the investigation was shoddy at the time, since then, the lack of a thorough investigation would have been apparent. Now that you have really delved into this, solved this, why is no further action being taken? Doesn't make sense...

 

[leftcoast]

Is it possible that sometime in his career, Teddy did some "work" for the government?

Yes, it is very likely he did "work" while with the special forces. Rumor has it that many such men were recruited for "other" activities during that time of our countries involvement in Nam. What, how, when, I don't know. Given he was only in the Army for two years, I do wonder to what extent. However, I do believe his army service definitely played a major part in his "slap" on the wrist for the armed robbery which occurred on 1/31/71, and resulted in five years probation, and no jail time.

An argument against such a deal, would be the case of Richard McCoy. HE served two terms with the Special Forces in Nam, and the second time was a war hero, and saved many lives during an attack in which McCoy killed numerous enemies.

However, after he was convicted in 1972, the government threw the book at McCoy and gave him a "life sentence". So, it does make you wonder why McCoy would get a life sentence, and the FEds turning their back on Cooper for the same offense. Of course, anything is possible.

Although the lives of people were forever changed, the plane was not blown up, people were not shot, etc. Even though the investigation was shoddy at the time, since then, the lack of a thorough investigation would have been apparent. Now that you have really delved into this, solved this, why is no further action being taken? Doesn't make sense...

Great question. ONe does have to wonder what is going on. Heck, we gave the Feds, the guy's name, address, where he lived, why he did it, how he fooled the investigators, how he spent the money, and the background which is exactly what the FBI was looking for in Cooper. Heck, the only thing we didn't give them was a confession, but, we sure did try. WE basically gift wrapped a case, all they need is a print, or a positive id, and let's either move it forward or close the case. IF the FBI won't investigate Teddy, then they are wasting taxpayer's money by keeping the case open. Because if it isn't him, then, this case will never be solved. imo

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Assuming you and AS are correct, what is the motive? When did H-bach know? and why didn't he solve the case?

left

LC,

I'm still wondering what the motive could have been. There are several possibilities. Recently I've backed off the theory that H-B was in on this from the beginning, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

There's something I've been thinking about that is tied to this. That's the ground rule, and how it may not necessarily be written in stone. I would imagine that it's up to some regional director to make the call even though they often follow this rule. IF this is true this changes thing a little.

Did H-B ever let on during the course of this investigation that he knew TM personally? Were his superiors aware of this? If those FA's were inundated with photo's and none of them were Teddy's....??? Those photo's were like a lineup, and often innocent people are put in the lineup to make sure that the perp. is identified "fairly".

Just because H-B rules out Teddy doesn't mean his photo couldn't have been part of a much smaller set that was ever shown to the FA's. In fact with the hundreds (thousands?) that were shown to them, how could his have not been included? Again, this could not have been by accident.

OD

 

[Niner]

Is it possible that sometime in his career, Teddy did some "work" for the government? And although the lives of people were forever changed, the plane was not blown up, people were not shot, etc. Even though the investigation was shoddy at the time, since then, the lack of a thorough investigation would have been apparent. Now that you have really delved into this, solved this, why is no further action being taken? Doesn't make sense...

agree!! We know the FBI in Portland KNOWS about this - as Scandi called them up!! Maybe you should do that too, Leftcoast??

Heck, the only thing we didn't give them was a confession, but, we sure did try. WE basically gift wrapped a case, all they need is a print, or a positive id, and let's either move it forward or close the case. IF the FBI won't investigate Teddy, then they are wasting taxpayer's money by keeping the case open. Because if it isn't him, then, this case will never be solved. imo

do you mean you actually "physcially" gave the Portland FBI papers of your investigation? or just that they know - as I said per the TV show or Scandi?? I think you should give them a call and 'see' what they are going to do about this case!! But that's just my opinion!! LOL! Good Luck if you do LeftCoast!!

 

[leftcoast]

LC,

I'm still wondering what the motive could have been. There are several possibilities. Recently I've backed off the theory that H-B was in on this from the beginning, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

There's something I've been thinking about that is tied to this. That's the ground rule, and how it may not necessarily be written in stone. I would imagine that it's up to some regional director to make the call even though they often follow this rule. IF this is true this changes thing a little.

Did H-B ever let on during the course of this investigation that he knew TM personally? Were his superiors aware of this? If those FA's were inundated with photo's and none of them were Teddy's....??? Those photo's were like a lineup, and often innocent people are put in the lineup to make sure that the perp. is identified "fairly".

Just because H-B rules out Teddy doesn't mean his photo couldn't have been part of a much smaller set that was ever shown to the FA's. In fact with the hundreds (thousands?) that were shown to them, how could his have not been included? Again, this could not have been by accident.

OD

Related to the ground rule, I'm sure Cooper wasn't sure either, but, just used his best judgment. Heck, if a bank robbery occurs on Portland soil, and the robber flees the bridge to Washington, it is still a Portland case. One would think that Cooper had the same idea. In most people's minds, including me, one would think where the crime originated is the office that is in charge of the investigation. I have no doubt in my mind that Cooper "purposely" handed that note, so, that a particular agent would be in charge of this investigation. Whether his guess was accurate or not, a reasonable person would think Portland would handle the case, or at least play a "major" role. Especially, since Cooper boarded in Portland.

I just can't imagine why a hijacker would give a note while on the ground. Everything was planned to a "t", and certainly it was not a mistake. Waiting five minutes until that plane left the runway would have been preferrable, unless, you wanted to make certain Portland would run the show. IMO

As for TEddy's picture being shown to the FA's. I can tell you that I am 99.9 % confident his picture has "never" been shown to the FA's by the FBI. The FBI did show pictures to the FA's, but they were "suspects", people who were called in that the FBI could not eliminate via Sherlock Holmes. LIke I stated earlier, the FBI would get a name, and simply add it to a stack of photos, and show the photos to the FA's. I don't think the lineups were done corrrectly, whereas you put the guy you think is cooper, along with 5 pictures of people who are cops, prisoners, etc. My understanding, is that the FBI would bring photo's from tipster's calls, and have the FA's go through "stacks" of pictures, and try to pick out Cooper.

LIke I mentioned earlier, this was a stupid thing to do by the FBI. Photos, via a lineup, should only be done, when you think you have a good case against a suspect, and the final piece is a lineup. It appears the FBI did the opposite, out of desperation, and simply tried to get the FA's to solve the case by picking Cooper's photo out of a "stack " of suspects. Since Teddy was never a "suspect", why in the world would his picture be in that stack? Trust me, I was at the lunch when H-bach said "must have", he was not telling the whole truth. Ask Matt, for his opinion. In my mind, H-bach was trying to cover his *advertiser censored**, and his "must have", meant, "no, but, I guess we should have". H-bach knows every detail of this crime, as if it happened yesterday, and he was in charge of the case. He certainly would have known for 100% certainty if Ted's photo was shown to the FA's. IF he said Ted had the best alibi of anyone, why in the world would he show his picture to the FA's? PLus, FBI agents are trained with "yes", and "No", answers. IMO, H-bach knew the answer was "no", and was trying to save face in front of his friend.

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[leftcoast]

agree!! We know the FBI in Portland KNOWS about this - as Scandi called them up!! Maybe you should do that too, Leftcoast??



do you mean you actually "physcially" gave the Portland FBI papers of your investigation? or just that they know - as I said per the TV show or Scandi?? I think you should give them a call and 'see' what they are going to do about this case!! But that's just my opinion!! LOL! Good Luck if you do LeftCoast!!

I can't disclose everything, but, I can tell you that the FBI is fully aware of our investigation, and the KOIN story was not the first time they have heard about our case.

The current FBI is very secretive, and rightly so, and accordingly you never know if your information is taken seriously, or simply filed away. Hopefully, it is taken seriously, since, they had the case for 35 years, with zero progress.

Sometimes, organizations are given a lead, and there is not enough physical evidence in order to get an indictment. What is going on in this case, I simply don't know. What I do know is that if the FBI doesn't take a good look at Teddy, they should close this case and stop wasting time and money keeping the case open.

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[leftcoast]

Anybody who wants a good side by side photo of Teddy boy, and the sketch drawn via Florence Schaffner's instructions, go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper#Ted_Mayfield

It is an excellent side by side.

Look at the bozo hair crest, the widow's peak, the cheeks, the nose, the thick neck. Amazing.

It is amazing how accurate Florence could be 17 years later.

Also, notice that in this photo, taken in April of 1974, that Teddy is only 38 years old at the time. To me, he looks at least 5 years older, given the gray hair, and the balding. It just may explain why some of the witnesses thought Cooper was 45 or so. Either way, it is important to remember that Florence told us she thought Cooper was 40.

One does have to wonder, if this photo was on the front page of the Oregon Journal, the FBI most wanted poster, on TV, in post offices, would that have changed a certain agent's approach, or would he still have been blinded by the "magic" trick? or worse?

Thanks to our friend for the Wiki work.

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[Old Dominion]

I can't disclose everything, but, I can tell you that the FBI is fully aware of our investigation, and the KOIN story was not the first time they have heard about our case.

The current FBI is very secretive, and rightly so, and accordingly you never know if your information is taken seriously, or simply filed away. Hopefully, it is taken seriously, since, they had the case for 35 years, with zero progress.

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Yes. But I still think that IF they're looking into this, it could be that they're trying to catch 2 birds with one stone. If I'm right....this could take some time.

OD

 

[Old Dominion]

One does have to wonder, if this photo was on the front page of the Oregon Journal, the FBI most wanted poster, on TV, in post offices, would that have changed a certain agent's approach, or would he still have been blinded by the "magic" trick? or worse?

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I've always wondered why neither sketch looked like Cooper. How could those girls have nodded off on those sketches at completion when they don't look like the perp? What happened with that? Why would it be necessary to have one of the same 2 FA's redo the sketch 17 years later for this reason?

I wonder how many people 17 years later called in TM's name to the FBI or wrote it in to UM after the episode?

This really adds to the mystery of JUST what is going on in this case with only 1 agent at the helm.


OD

 

[leftcoast]

I've always wondered why neither sketch looked like Cooper. How could those girls have nodded off on those sketches at completion when they don't look like the perp? What happened with that? Why would it be necessary to have one of the same 2 FA's redo the sketch 17 years later for this reason?

I wonder how many people 17 years later called in TM's name to the FBI or wrote it in to UM after the episode?

This really adds to the mystery of JUST what is going on in this case with only 1 agent at the helm.


OD

You do wonder why the sketches are so different. Sketches are a poor method of identification, and should not have been used here until a week or two after the crime, IMO.

As for how many people called in TM after the UM showed aired. I'll bet a ton. And just like the FBI back in 71, 72...88, each and every call was probably filed away since Sherlock HOlmes had already eliminated Teddy.

It's odd, but, H-bach was part of that UM show. Wouldn't that have been a good opportunity for H-bach to finally meet Florence, and ask her personally about the case, and what she thought. Maybe, by accident, H-bach could have solved the case in 1988, that is, if he wanted to.

I'm fed up with this whole investigation. Why is one FBI agent allowed to dismiss a name that constantly comes up in the investigation, and nobody asks him why this Ted guy was eliminated?

These guys should be lucky they are retired, or in my opinion, they would be "glorified secretaries" until the day they turn 55 and can collect their pensions. That includes H-bach, and his supervisors, who did a horrendous job on this case.

Even if we are wrong, which I put at about 5%, this investigation was horrible. Why in the world is it 35 years later, and we still dont' know where the most experienced Portland skydiver, who is callous, criminally inclined, middle-aged, was while Cooper was on that plane? Absolutely no excuse for this!!!!!

Are you telling me that H-bach didn't recognize the guy from the new sketch Florence did on the UM show? Didn't he seem just a bit familiar? Please. He is either blind, or he just wanted to make the case more difficult than it actually was. There is no excuse for what happened in this case. That includes H-bachs supervisor, the other Portland agents, the agents who were assigned to this case after h-bach retired, and so on. At least 10 FBI agents did a collective crappy job on this case. Luckily, most of them are retired.

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