Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi everyone, new poster here.

I just wanted to say, in regards to sketch 1 vs sketch 2 and whether or not either looks like the man in the video -

I think that, although the video will probably end up being a net benefit to the investigation in the long term, in the short term I believe it led many people astray, and continues to.

The video is of such poor quality that it's like a rorschach test: everyone sees something slightly different; opinions get passed on and influence the eyes of others, etc.

I believe at first glance it looks like a middle aged man with a moustache, because the baggy multiple layers of clothing make him appear portly, and the shape underneath the nose appears so dark that you can't see a mouth until you zoom in close and play the video slowly over and over again. There might still be a moustache there, but it could just as easily be a clean shaven mouth with so much shadow and pixellation that it doesn't resemble one, at least in a still frame.

I wonder whether the common first impression of a middle aged, moustached man informs the way we hear the audio of his voice too, and it's subsequently difficult to shake that first impression.

I think it's important to note (and correct me if I'm wrong) that sketch #1 was a composite of various witness descriptions; sketch #2 is a sketch from a single particular person.

I feel that many people looked at that initial phone picture and started calling in to say they'd seen a portly bearded man here, an overweight man with a moustache in a hunting cap there, etc. I think that these sorts of descriptions were probably prioritised because they seem to match what you see in the phone picture before studying it (particularly two years before having the video to study), and so many tips with a similar description came in.

I feel that the second sketch probably got overlooked because it doesn't seem to resemble the phone picture and video. But under all those layers, with that amount of pixellation, it's impossible to say that it does or doesn't resemble the person.

<modsnip - not an approved source>

For what it's worth, too, I believe the age description of "18 - 40, but may look younger than his age" suggests that LE believe they're looking for someone in the younger side of that age range. Up to 40 years old is in there to not rule out anyone who happens to look young, but witnesses saw someone who looked young, and LE have reason to believe it.

My gut feeling is that they spent two years looking for a middle aged portly phantom because that was the first impression from the video; early this year they had an "ah-hah" moment and realised that someone was considered but dismissed early on, potentially with a motive (however warped and psychotic that might be), and it had been staring them in the face all along. Maybe if they'd been quicker to suspect the person in sketch 2, they could have pressured their friends and family, and the killer would have been easier to break in the interview room. Now it's over 2 years on and the killer will assume the police have a scant amount of evidence, so witnesses coming forward before the arrest is much more important than it would have been back then.

As I said, just my opinion.

Sorry for the long post!

I think it is precisely because so many people have different opinions of the description of the man that Liberty German captured on video that they also have so many different opinions of the sketches released afterwards.

I think the 2nd sketch is based off the idea that the killer needed to have transportation to leave the immediate area after getting off the trails. So this witness answers the much needed question of how the man on the bridge may have possibly been able to leave the area. So they release it because there is nothing else they can do other than admit to everyone they do not know what the man who killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German looks like.

The main question is whether or not any of the eyewitnesses, whether it be the 1st sketch or the 2nd sketch, actually saw the man that killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German? And if they did see the man on the bridge, are their recollections from memory good enough to help police provide an accurate description of the killer?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That’s what I would think, too. But then I started wondering if it’s possible they are hoping the second person will come forward. Total speculation, obviously. But in this scenario, the second person (I’ll refer to him as “the lookout”) suggested in the phone footage that he was remorseful about what took place. I’m thinking the lookout would likely be someone willing to take part in a sexual assault, but not murder. Perhaps the lookout was even someone who had cognitive impairment and as a result could be easily manipulated by the killer into being the lookout, or who the killer had done a favor for in the past, perhaps related to another illegal activity, and now the lookout “owed him one.” Maybe he was on drugs and not entirely in his right mind when he agreed to take part. There are a million different reasons why he could have been convinced to take part.

But the key is that he showed guilt, and ISP decides to play on that in the hope that he will come forward. The guilt isn’t going to disappear after two years. If anything, as time goes on, the guilt will probably only worsen as the secret eats away at him.

In the April presser, Carter talks quite a bit about good vs evil, even if he’s not explicitly using those words. The good of the Delphi community vs the evil of the person who committed the murders. The reference to The Shack. Carter said he believes the killer “has a little bit of conscience left.” What if he wasn’t directing this towards the killer, himself, but the lookout?

Total speculation and MOO.
BBM
I got the impression that DC was referencing something BG may have done at the crime scene that made it look like he was remorseful in some way.
That’s just the feeling I get every time I have watched that PC. But that could just be me, IDK MOO
 
Is it possible the killer knew Liberty had gotten video of him and he choose to leave the phone at the crime scene because he believed the video would mislead investigators? We have speculated about reasons for the phone being left at the scene.
 
BBM
I got the impression that DC was referencing something BG may have done at the crime scene that made it look like he was remorseful in some way.
That’s just the feeling I get every time I have watched that PC. But that could just be me, IDK MOO
Quite possible. The April presser was just so weird. I tell myself that the whole thing was calculated and scripted out, and that everything that Carter said he said for a reason. The alternative explanation doesn’t look so promising.
 
Omg, I JUST came across that name “Lois Gibson” a couple hours ago in a 29 year old cold case, in an OLD article, and JUST made this post in another thread- that is wacky @fred&edna !

From Cheryl's and Andy’s thread, re: her rendering of an age progressed sketch of suspect in 2008:


—-

Who is this “Lois” we speak of..googling...

I first learned of Lois Gibson on the case of the unidentified little boy who washed ashore on Galveston beach. He was eventually identified.

Some links about her starting on page 5 of this thread:

Identified! - Tx - Galveston, Hispmale 'little Jacob' Up17178, 3-5, Jayden Alexander Lopez, Oct'17 *arrest*

* I hope more artists learn from her!

PS... I'm so glad to see this thread for Abby and Libby is still active!
 
Quite possible. The April presser was just so weird. I tell myself that the whole thing was calculated and scripted out, and that everything that Carter said he said for a reason. The alternative explanation doesn’t look so promising.
ITA
 
I would think that if there was another voice on the recording, that LE would release that voice so people could possibly identify him?

Also, if LE thought there was more than one suspect, wouldn’t they say so? That they’re looking for a “pair” and not just an individual?

Thoughts?

Agree.
Though it is possible that the recording captured BG addressing an accomplice.
If so they may not have any more evidence than that maybe a remark that suggested another person.
But if they had evidence of any other involved suspect, I think they would state to the public that they were looking for two people.
Two men or a man and a woman, in the area, traveling to the area or leaving the area on 2/13/17 together or singly.
 
Now you sent me back to the photos of the BG. I've never been a hat believer, but rather, brown hair. HOWEVER, I downloaded a picture of BG, and enlarged it. I MIGHT be persuaded he's wearing a type of mountain man hat, maybe a coonskin hat with face. Here's a picture of a badger hat....

81S3gvPdY%2BL._SX425_.jpg

Gosh, interesting. I would have snuck a video of someone wearing such a strange thing, combined with skinny legs and walking weird - like a People of Walmart sort of thing. Hmmm. Wonder if those strange hats are sold in the area?
 
Maybe, I don't know (as a German speaking person), when exactly to use the term "twist". :) In German "Twist" would mean some tangle of 2 or more things/facts. It wouldn't mean something, which surprisingly was found (video/audio).
A real "twist" would be: one "fake perp" (??) in the video/audio, but the real perp under the bridge and not visible on video; different DNA by evidence, but matching partly. That would have been a brainteaser task (IF the term exists at all). MOO
I would take from Sheriff Leazenby's words that a "twist" he'd never seen in all his years in LE would mean a twist as in an unusual occurrence, an anomaly of sorts. That could be anything from how the murders were committed or staged to an aspect that had never popped up before. I think it was the victim capturing her killer on audio and video. I don't believe I've ever heard of that happening before. JMO
 
Last edited:
I would take from Sheriff Leazenby's words that a "twist" he'd never seen in all his years in LE would mean a twist as in an unusual occurrence, an anomaly of sorts. That could be anything from how the murders were committed or staged to an aspect that had never popped up before. I think it was the victim capturing her killer on audio and video. I don't believe I've ever heard of that happening before. JMO


Well, it the murderer is captured on a video/audio and still not apprehended 2+ years later, this is a twist...


But thinking of twists in plots. One man, an older, kills the girls for some reason - they know something about him.


Another one, younger, is not involved in the murders but runs into the corpses, and instead of calling the police, gets excited, stages them, leaves his DNA. He is involved, but not the murderer.

This could be a twist. (I don’t think it really happened, but would be a twist).


IRL, MOO - I think the older man OBG is related to the younger one, NBG, so the LE is going after the younger one, because it is easier to prove, and because they hope the older one will step forward if the threat is for his son/close relative ending up behind bars. I think they have DNA for the younger one. But the older one, out of cowardice, is not doing it.
 
I first learned of Lois Gibson on the case of the unidentified little boy who washed ashore on Galveston beach. He was eventually identified.

Some links about her starting on page 5 of this thread:

Identified! - Tx - Galveston, Hispmale 'little Jacob' Up17178, 3-5, Jayden Alexander Lopez, Oct'17 *arrest*

* I hope more artists learn from her!

PS... I'm so glad to see this thread for Abby and Libby is still active!

It has to be active. Two girls were killed, and one of them, a child, essentially, did everything to record their deaths. To make the police job easy. If the case is not resolved it means:

1) the police is incompetent
2) the police experiences unusual pressure on them
3) slim chance the guy is unbelievably lucky


Neither is good.
 
Does anyone know if the far-reaching nationwide billboards are still up, with the NBG sketch added? Or were the billboards downsized to more Indiana area states after the April 2019 PC?

It would seem an appropriate thing to do after declaring that BG is local. If in fact the billboards have been condensed this way, I have more hope that there actually was some usable quality DNA recovered which led to tightening of the search-for-the-killer area.

The longer the time goes by without an arrest the bigger an area you would think LE would need to look for the killer, starting locally and expaning outwards. ISP investigation, as of April 2019, has stated the opposite, looking inward, not expanding. Maybe DNA caused this?
 
BBM
I got the impression that DC was referencing something BG may have done at the crime scene that made it look like he was remorseful in some way.
That’s just the feeling I get every time I have watched that PC. But that could just be me, IDK MOO

I think he might have confessed to someone. From the same PC, it would appear that the crime scene was next to horrible, so what could he do to show remorse?
 
Is it possible the killer knew Liberty had gotten video of him and he choose to leave the phone at the crime scene because he believed the video would mislead investigators? We have speculated about reasons for the phone being left at the scene.

Here's my take on this.....

1. there were two perps involved, and
2. The REAL killer, NBG sketch 2, left OBG sketch 1's (the accomplice's) DNA scattered about the murder scene.

Good Lord, what if the real killer dressed to appear as the accomplice.....that'd be a twist eh?
 
Last edited:
Can anyone recall a case where they had two totally different sketches? I mean, like “day and night” different? And if so, how did that turn out I wonder?

Maybe both sketches are wrong. Sometimes they’re a dead ringer.

Eyewitness accounts are supposedly the least reliable "evidence" you can have. Add to that the difficulty in describing someone who you probably only glanced at a day before and that is why sketches often do not resemble the proven perpetrator.
 
I think it is precisely because so many people have different opinions of the description of the man that Liberty German captured on video that they also have so many different opinions of the sketches released afterwards.

I think the 2nd sketch is based off the idea that the killer needed to have transportation to leave the immediate area after getting off the trails. So this witness answers the much needed question of how the man on the bridge may have possibly been able to leave the area. So they release it because there is nothing else they can do other than admit to everyone they do not know what the man who killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German looks like.

The main question is whether or not any of the eyewitnesses, whether it be the 1st sketch or the 2nd sketch, actually saw the man that killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German? And if they did see the man on the bridge, are their recollections from memory good enough to help police provide an accurate description of the killer?

Good point. The other thing that struck me was the lack of people on the trail that day. It's a weekday and not a holiday. There's a chance nobody good a good look at the perpetrator.
 
Do we know for certain if the NBG sketch came from a person who was on the bridge that day?
Is it possible that someone saw a person who was acting oddly hours, days, weeks, or months after the murders took place and that is where the sketch is from? Could it be that the first sketch was the person in disguise, and the second sketch is of the same person after the disguise was ditched? Just speculating and MOO

IIRC, LE has never stated exactly how they came up with the NBG sketch or if/when there were any possible witnesses to NBG that day. Probably they want to keep that info private, in order to protect witnesses, if any.
 
April 2019 abduction attempt of a 11 year old girl in Knox County Indiana at the Ouabache Trails Park and camp ground.

I'm posting this case because it was a daylight abduction attempt from an area where there were people around but it also was near a river and wild area.

Authorities speak out on Knox County abduction attempt

Well, gee, how did we miss this? Good find, Alma

Article is posted early am on 4/23 and says the incident took place on Sunday, presumably 4/21. The 4/22 PC was announced late the week prior so I don't think this could be the incident that triggered the PC but waiting for the PC might have triggered BG?

Vincennes to Delphi comes up as a little over 3 hours apart.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
166
Guests online
2,477
Total visitors
2,643

Forum statistics

Threads
594,308
Messages
18,002,512
Members
229,363
Latest member
Essmat Arafa
Back
Top