Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #118

[MichelleBlue]

On page one of this thread there is a link to the latest PC 4/22/19. That is the one you are looking for.

Thank you!

 

[sunshineray]

Agreed. If they knew who BG was, I don't understand why they would have investigated Etter. If they were "back to square one" in the sense of not really knowing at all who did this, then makes sense to look closely at Etter given his crimes.

Maybe Etter had a family connection to Delphi? Delphi and Lafayette aren't that far apart. I guess it could also go to whether LE thinks there could have been two involved with Delphi murders? Didn't I read somewhere that Etter communicated through social media when he was on the lamb? Maybe something he said sparked interest in Delphi investigators?

 

[stattlich1]

Maybe Etter had a family connection to Delphi? Delphi and Lafayette aren't that far apart. I guess it could also go to whether LE thinks there could have been two involved with Delphi murders? Didn't I read somewhere that Etter communicated through social media when he was on the lamb? Maybe something he said sparked interest in Delphi investigators?

What if the killer was so astute as to plant dna evidence at the scene for the sole purpose of throwing investigators off? Maybe the reason the case is so 'complicated' boils down to contamination of the crime scene..... there was plenty of time for whoever wanted to, to get to that crime scene, not to mention, the multitude of potential individuals that were tramping around that site.

 

[sunshineray]

What if the killer was so astute as to plant dna evidence at the scene for the sole purpose of throwing investigators off? Maybe the reason the case is so 'complicated' boils down to contamination of the crime scene..... there wasn't plenty of time for whoever wanted to, to get to that crime scene, not to mention, the multitude of potential individuals that were tramping around that site.

I think the killer brought something with him to contaminate or eradicate evidence at the scene before he left. I don't want to discuss what but I don't think it was someone else's DNA. That's JMO

 

[stattlich1]

Here's a question or two. We, including myself, speculate so much, and ponder things right?

Has there ever been proof the killer and the girls actually crossed the creek?
Is there any statement by LE, or any definitive proof that the girls clothing was wet from crossing that creek?

How about BG? Ever any reference to his clothing being wet? I've read speculation that he may have changed clothes, but there is no proof or evidence of that right?

I've assumed 'down the hill' was somehow related to the hill at the end of the bridge, could that be totally wrong? Might it be 'down the hill' is at a completely different location? What proof is there that statement refers to that location at the SE corner of the bridge? Could 'down the hill' refer to a different hill leading to the murder sight, maybe down the hill from someone's property? Or from that cemetary?

Just random thinking on my part.

carry on

 

[sunshineray]

I just mentioned thinking the killer came prepared to contaminate or eradicate the crime scene of his DNA after he killed.

On GH more recent video a caller he seemed to trust with some specific information, said the only DNA LE has is touch DNA from the shoulder of one sweatshirt. He also said LE investigators were very surprised at the lack of DNA at the crime scene.

I can't seem to get this information out of any theories I entertain. It makes sense that cleaning up the scene was all part of this killer's plan since so little has happened with the DNA researching. Something was gleaned but not enough to make an arrest.

Who would come so prepared? Is this now the norm for random killers or even ones who stalk a specific person? LE seems to be dealing with someone who planned. I can't believe he hasn't struck again. AJMO

 

[stattlich1]

Who would come so prepared? Is this now the norm for random killers or even ones who stalk a specific person? LE seems to be dealing with someone who planned. I can't believe he hasn't struck again. AJMO

Who would be wise enough to be so skilled as to leave no trace? This type of question plays in to my speculation as to the type of work in which the killer is involved.

Otherwise the killer is just a guy who has done enough research in to the matter of leaving no trace at the scene. A serial killer who has been at it for a while, has experience, and is responsible for other unsolved murders.

Yet he's believed to be from Delphi, hiding in plain sight, etc. etc. etc.?

The whole business doesn't add up, you know. The fighting spirit of the girls, the distance between the supposed meetup at the bridge and the crime scene where they were found. The speculation as to the brutality of the murders. One would think DNA would almost certainly have been present.

In fact, LE has stated on several occasions they have DNA.

 

[MichelleBlue]

I know this has all been exhaustively discussed, but the "Guys" part sounds like he is calmly trying to get control of the situation. For example, a middle school teacher when the kids are starting to act up & they don't want to raise their voice & get frustrated, like "Guys. Come on." There is some tone of regret, like when the same teacher might say, "Guys. Don't act like this." The "down the hill" is more commanding, but also has some regret in his voice like the "Guys" part. I wonder how often the families play this back.

 

[sunshineray]

Who would be wise enough to be so skilled as to leave no trace? This type of question plays in to my speculation as to the type of work in which the killer is involved.

Otherwise the killer is just a guy who has done enough research in to the matter of leaving no trace at the scene. A serial killer who has been at it for a while, has experience, and is responsible for other unsolved murders.

Yet he's believed to be from Delphi, hiding in plain sight, etc. etc. etc.?

The whole business doesn't add up, you know. The fighting spirit of the girls, the distance between the supposed meetup at the bridge and the crime scene where they were found. The speculation as to the brutality of the murders. One would think DNA would almost certainly have been present.

In fact, LE has stated on several occasions they have DNA.

I was one who really put a lot of stock and hope on that DNA researching being done by the FBI. Hearing that GH caller really shook my confidence that what DNA they did have was enough. The more time that goes by I get even more discouraged and think that the DNA they recovered was just too minimal to bring justice. It will have to come from another direction. JMO

 

[MingyMoo]

I think the killer brought something with him to contaminate or eradicate evidence at the scene before he left. I don't want to discuss what but I don't think it was someone else's DNA. That's JMO

I still think they witnessed something or the murderer thought A&L witnessed something. I still think there is another person who knows what the motive was (Not physically involved in the Murders) and I still think that person is very scared and has misguided loyalties. I still think the motive was self serving, self surviving, self protection alongside rage and as someone else put it much to lose. I can't help but be reminded of the Netflix series 13 reasons why. How the teenagers kept all thier worst secrets away from the Adults/Parents.

Only My Humble Opinion
MingyMoo

 

[HEY YOU!]

Here's a question or two. We, including myself, speculate so much, and ponder things right?

Has there ever been proof the killer and the girls actually crossed the creek?
Is there any statement by LE, or any definitive proof that the girls clothing was wet from crossing that creek?

How about BG? Ever any reference to his clothing being wet? I've read speculation that he may have changed clothes, but there is no proof or evidence of that right?

I've assumed 'down the hill' was somehow related to the hill at the end of the bridge, could that be totally wrong? Might it be 'down the hill' is at a completely different location? What proof is there that statement refers to that location at the SE corner of the bridge? Could 'down the hill' refer to a different hill leading to the murder sight, maybe down the hill from someone's property? Or from that cemetary?

Just random thinking on my part.

carry on

I have wondered this as well. Where they were found was also 'down the hill' but from another direction. I believe LE stated that some amateur sleuth theories are off in how the crime occurred. I wonder if that is one of the facts being held close to the vest?

 

[Boxer]

Here's a question or two. We, including myself, speculate so much, and ponder things right?

Has there ever been proof the killer and the girls actually crossed the creek?
Is there any statement by LE, or any definitive proof that the girls clothing was wet from crossing that creek?

How about BG? Ever any reference to his clothing being wet? I've read speculation that he may have changed clothes, but there is no proof or evidence of that right?

I've assumed 'down the hill' was somehow related to the hill at the end of the bridge, could that be totally wrong? Might it be 'down the hill' is at a completely different location? What proof is there that statement refers to that location at the SE corner of the bridge? Could 'down the hill' refer to a different hill leading to the murder sight, maybe down the hill from someone's property? Or from that cemetary?

Just random thinking on my part.

carry on

I do think it is possible it was the north side of the creek, but unlikely. MOO forcing the girls back across would have taken a lot of time. The police have stated the crime started immediately after the video snippet on the bridge.
They also stated that by the time BG said: "down the hill" he was getting frustrated with them, MOO for not complying.
By 3:11 Libby's phone was not being responded to, although it rang through, though immediately after on the second call it went to voice mail.
MOO, in my experience with an iPhone that would mean someone touched the screen and ignored the call.

So the gap between the clear bridge picture of BG on the bridge, for which the time stamp has not been released and the time of the recording of the voice for "Down the hill." and the phone not answering at 3:11 is going to be less than an hour. The Police have said the crime was very quick.

MOO the video and the voice recording are the same file.
MOO Liberty filmed him and hid the phone running. I think the phone stopped recording because got jostled on the way down the hill, or just timed out somewhere after "Down the Hill."
I think the ringing of the phone prompted the killer to find the phone, and to leave.

 

[sunshineray]

Here's a question or two. We, including myself, speculate so much, and ponder things right?

Has there ever been proof the killer and the girls actually crossed the creek?
Is there any statement by LE, or any definitive proof that the girls clothing was wet from crossing that creek?

How about BG? Ever any reference to his clothing being wet? I've read speculation that he may have changed clothes, but there is no proof or evidence of that right?

I've assumed 'down the hill' was somehow related to the hill at the end of the bridge, could that be totally wrong? Might it be 'down the hill' is at a completely different location? What proof is there that statement refers to that location at the SE corner of the bridge? Could 'down the hill' refer to a different hill leading to the murder sight, maybe down the hill from someone's property? Or from that cemetary?

Just random thinking on my part.

carry on

I've wondered about BG being wet and that drawing attention but the murder scene was on private property and if he left through the cemetery who was there to see him?

I've also wondered if BG took the girls back across the bridge before his "down the hill" order. I suppose that is possible but coming back across that bridge up high and out in the open just doesn't seem smart for someone who seems to have eluded captured for almost 3 years.

There was that man that was seen walking along the highway with a duffel bag. LE actually asked the public about that, didn't they? So changing clothes is aa possibilty. Recently former FBI agents said they thought the killer prepared a "lair", to bring his victim(s) to, ahead of time.

 

[MingyMoo]

MOO the video and the voice recording are the same file.
MOO Liberty filmed him and hid the phone running. I think the phone stopped recording because got jostled on the way down the hill, or just timed out somewhere after "Down the Hill."
I think the ringing of the phone prompted the killer to find the phone, and to leave.

In response

I also think the video and voice are the same file.
Timed out or accidentally stopped somewhere after "Down the Hill" Agreed
Your third point actually raises

• Was the Murderer Tech Savvy enough to hear it and leave it
• Was the Murder Clueless

Personally I think he was Tech Savvy enough to leave it and not touch it or knew enough not to take it with him.

Just Pondering Again
MingyMoo

 

[155etta]

I just mentioned thinking the killer came prepared to contaminate or eradicate the crime scene of his DNA after he killed.

On GH more recent video a caller he seemed to trust with some specific information, said the only DNA LE has is touch DNA from the shoulder of one sweatshirt. He also said LE investigators were very surprised at the lack of DNA at the crime scene.

I can't seem to get this information out of any theories I entertain. It makes sense that cleaning up the scene was all part of this killer's plan since so little has happened with the DNA researching. Something was gleaned but not enough to make an arrest.

Who would come so prepared? Is this now the norm for random killers or even ones who stalk a specific person? LE seems to be dealing with someone who planned. I can't believe he hasn't struck again. AJMO

I can't figure out how the crime scene was "gruesome" with no DNA left? Seems like any struggle or hands on stuff: SA, strangling, drowning, even using a knife would leave more touch DNA than just some on a shoulder. Only thing that comes to mind is if they were shot/not touched. MOO

 

[gregjrichards]

In response

I also think the video and voice are the same file.
Timed out or accidentally stopped somewhere after "Down the Hill" Agreed
Your third point actually raises

• Was the Murderer Tech Savvy enough to hear it and leave it
• Was the Murder Clueless

Personally I think he was Tech Savvy enough to leave it and not touch it or knew enough not to take it with him.

Just Pondering Again
MingyMoo

I have always thought Liberty’s iPhone got dropped or was thrown by her in a struggle and he couldn’t find it. He wouldn’t have had a lot of time to hunt for it before having to get out of there. You would imagine he would have dumped the iPhone in the water, tried to destroy it or try to bury it somewhere at least if he had known he had been recorded on it.

 

[sunshineray]

I can't figure out how the crime scene was "gruesome" with no DNA left? Seems like any struggle or hands on stuff: SA, strangling, drowning, even using a knife would leave more touch DNA than just some on a shoulder. Only thing that comes to mind is if they were shot/not touched. MOO

Only thing that makes sense is the killer cleaned up somehow.

If they were shot, which I never thought very likely, the killer not touching his victims at all, what was his purpose then?

Killers like the DC snipers or the more recent store shooters kill from afar or without touching their victims. BG took two young girls from a hiking trail, most likely across a creek and brought them to a spot not far from the abduction site. If he didn't plan on touching them then what was his purpose? What was his motivation?

 

[MingyMoo]

I can't figure out how the crime scene was "gruesome" with no DNA left? Seems like any struggle or hands on stuff: SA, strangling, drowning, even using a knife would leave more touch DNA than just some on a shoulder. Only thing that comes to mind is if they were shot/not touched. MOO

Is it not possible because the sad events of 13th Feb 2017 are so rare in this area. That two teenagers murdered and left is Gruesome in its own right? How many of the LE have seen a double homiside site net alone that of two female teenagers it has got to have been an awful shock to all concerned. Articulation and description is somewhat subjective and open to interpretation by all those who read and listen.

Still pondering
MingyMoo

 

[Boxer]

In response

I also think the video and voice are the same file.
Timed out or accidentally stopped somewhere after "Down the Hill" Agreed
Your third point actually raises

• Was the Murderer Tech Savvy enough to hear it and leave it
• Was the Murder Clueless

Personally I think he was Tech Savvy enough to leave it and not touch it or knew enough not to take it with him.

Just Pondering Again
MingyMoo

Agree, tech savvy. Even possibly to wearing modern gloves that allow touch screen use.

 

[MJPeony]

I have always thought Liberty’s iPhone got dropped or was thrown by her in a struggle and he couldn’t find it. He wouldn’t have had a lot of time to hunt for it before having to get out of there. You would imagine he would have dumped the iPhone in the water, tried to destroy it or try to bury it somewhere at least if he had known he had been recorded on it.

I’ve become convinced (for the time being ) that BG did NOT know he had been recorded, heard Libby’s cell phone ringing when DG first called, then silenced it and left it where it was because he knew time was up and he had to get out of Dodge. I think BG purposefully left Libby’s cell phone because he understood how tracking works. He knew he shouldn’t take it with him and he flat out didn’t have time to destroy it (throw in water, etc). Thinking what’s the harm of leaving it if he didn’t think there was any incriminating evidence on it.

I do think it’s possible he was still trying to leave the scene (clean up, place things the way he wanted it perhaps, etc) when DG had already entered the trails starting to look for the girls.


MOO.