Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[KiwiNZ]

You know, I can buy him recording somethings incorrectly, like the date on the postcard. Sally's last postcard was dated July 30, then there is all the activity in August- I get how he may have accidently written August in his notes instead of July. But the statements about Tell them to stop looking for me in Byron Bay I'm far far away and Tell Sally Im angry about the car are far more specific.

The reason I think she is correct is that statement about the car would have come from the police in their original contact with Marion via the banks contact with her, the Salvation Army did not speak to Marion they could only have got information from the police, the Salvation Army have no authority to contact the bank and they did not locate Marion herself so these comments could only have come from the police records and this would have been past to Sally via the police when they confirmed they had located her mother and she wanted no contact. But there is also the chance that they didn’t pass on the full statement at the time ?

 

[Mel 1303]

The reason I think she is correct is that statement about the car would have come from the police in their original contact with Marion via the banks contact with her, the Salvation Army did not speak to Marion they could only have got information from the police, the Salvation Army have no authority to contact the bank and they did not locate Marion herself so these comments could only have come from the police records and this would have been past to Sally via the police when they confirmed they had located her mother and she wanted no contact. But there is also the chance that they didn’t pass on the full statement at the time ?

You make a good point. But the Salvo's may have pushed the missing persons unit harder than Sally pushed the officer who rang to say Marion had been located. I imagine that was one of the most hurtful, surprising and confusing phone calls Sally had ever received. Sounds like Jack asked further questions after as well, as he said the police had suggested he hire a private investigator and start in Byron Bay.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Wasn't there some kind of misunderstanding around the car thing? Wasn't it put to bed because there were crossed wires between Sally and her grandfather or something? Don't remember but am sure I read that recently that it had been a complete mix up.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

You make a good point. But the Salvo's may have pushed the missing persons unit harder than Sally pushed the officer who rang to say Marion had been located. I imagine that was one of the most hurtful, surprising and confusing phone calls Sally had ever received. Sounds like Jack asked further questions after as well, as he said the police had suggested he hire a private investigator and start in Byron Bay.

Yes I agree I think the suggestion to get a PI would have come about because the family were (understandibly) pushing for information the police had but couldnt give to them.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I've been thinking as I've been reading the recent comments about how much doubt/confusion there is over certain 'facts' in Marion's disappearance. When was the purse was stolen, when did the last postcard arrive, when did Marion called before reentering Australia and the specifics of the phone calls from police/red cross.
I'm thinking this confusion is a product of the way the podcast is produced.
The podcast is made predominantly from narrative (of people who knew Marion) and most of this is recounted from memory which is not static or as reliable as we may think, particularly when emotion is involved. Memories evolve and they can be subconsciously influenced by what we subsequently learn about the event.
I'm not doubting any specific information or anyone's particular version of events just thinking about how subjective much of the information presented is.

 

[Garyb]

Yes I agree I think the suggestion to get a PI would have come about because the family were (understandibly) pushing for information the police had but couldnt give to them.

Interestingly the PI they used was the person who runs the lost boys of TSS facebook group about the sexual assault of young boys there. If you read his comments about Marion he has had a bitter falling out with the podcast crew and suggests the son who committed suicide played a part in it all.
Not saying i agree with him but worth reading his comments.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I've been thinking as I've been reading the recent comments about how much doubt/confusion there is over certain 'facts' in Marion's disappearance. When was the purse was stolen, when did the last postcard arrive, when did Marion called before reentering Australia and the specifics of the phone calls from police/red cross.
I'm thinking this confusion is a product of the way the podcast is produced.
The podcast is made predominantly from narrative (of people who knew Marion) and most of this is recounted from memory which is not static or as reliable as we may think, particularly when emotion is involved. Memories evolve and they can be subconsciously influenced by what we subsequently learn about the event.
I'm not doubting any specific information or anyone's particular version of events just thinking about how subjective much of the information presented is.

I know what you mean. One thing also occurred to me about the untouched money that was being held in Barclay's Bank. It would make perfect sense that if it was in the name Marion Barter and ( am unsure as to the timing of things in getting the new passport, expiry of the old one etc..) but they obviously couldn't just release the money to Marion if she had a Florabella passport! But what happened? Could Marion not change her name with the bank and show them documentation in time...it has sounded like a lot of the official papers were tied up in terms of the name change and all she seemed to need was the passport. But wouldn't she twig before leaving Australia that her account was still in her Marion name and that would cause a major problem? Not saying anything pointed as we can all have complete oversights if something is done in haste, but from what we know of Marion, intelligent, seems to have taken care of so many things prior to her trip..seems odd that changing her name with her bank so she could access something as vital as money, would not have occurred to her.
Unless of course, she knew full well she did not intend to use it and was only going to be away for a short time and had enough in cash or travellers cheques. But then why set it up in the first place? Unless she thought she would be using the name Marion, which seems unlikely because it appears that in chaging her name in May and not leaving for another month- she was well prepared to go by Florabella at least as far as the passport was concerned. Do we know how and when she set up the transfer from CBA over to Barclays? Was she hoping to have changed things with the bank and it actually slipped her mind?

Also, I don't really understand how if Barclay's was in Marion's name - it must have transferred from an account in the Marion name. If that was the case and she needed photo i.d for the $5,000 increments in Byron Bay- how did she manage that with the Florabella passport on her return? Or did she change the bank details when she got back, because by then she had recieved any required paperwork? (I would be surprised if you can make an official name change and not have all that is required to change it on official things pretty quickly. Surely that would cause a lot of serious problems in daily life! )Unless they accepted something like a drivers licence instead and that was still in the Marion name? I am very confused I think...

Do we know when her actual Marion passport expired? If it was still valid is it a case of handing it in as soon as name change is registered, how does it all work?

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Answered some of my own questions again I see! I knew she returned on the Florabella passport. I keep thinking she went out on that one too. But it makes sense if it ran out when in England, she would run into problems. Maybe the idea was , she was to recieve documentation while with regrard to her passport which then she could use to change with the bank!

 

[KiwiNZ]

Answered some of my own questions again I see! I knew she returned on the Florabella passport. I keep thinking she went out on that one too. But it makes sense if it ran out when in England, she would run into problems. Maybe the idea was , she was to recieve documentation while with regrard to her passport which then she could use to change with the bank!

When you apply for a new passport the new one supersedes the old one straight away, no matter what the expiry is on the old one, you never have 2 lives passport for the same country, you can only have 2 if they are for different countries (dual citizen ship ). They return both the new and old to you but the old is defaced and stopped in the system.

Marion could not of enter the uk with a Marion passport and a Florabella ( on her) , if she had applied for the Florabella before she left Aus. She would have had to enter with her latest passport.

In 1997 to enter the UK you had to have at least 6 months left on your passport past your departure date on your return ticket.

She would not have been given flight tickets in the name of Marion to depart and Florabella to return. You can not be issued flight tickets if your passport expires during your trip, you have to apply for a new passport before your departure date to cover you for the entire trip. The travel agent checks by sighting your passport before issuing tickets to avoid you been refused entry on arrival. Your passport number is lodged against your ticket, any new passports have different numbers so you can not fly if your passport number does not match that on the ticket.

She has either left on the Florabella passport or applied for the passport from the AUS consulate in the UK while she was there but not because her passport was expiring and she would not have been allowed to enter the UK had that been the case. She would have also had to buy a new ticket

Would be good if we had a travel agent on the page to confirm the above.

I am amazed they haven’t had a travel agent on the podcast to clear this up as it is very black and what as to what the rules of travel are and it would remove a lot of speculation on how she travelled and on what passports she could travel.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Also in 1 podcast they seem to believe you could travel between nz and Aus without a passport in 1997, this is not correct, since 1981 you have need a passport to travel between nz and Aus, you just don’t need an entry visa or a return ticket and there is no limit on time you can stay but you have needed a passport since 1981.

 

[KiwiNZ]

It would make sense if she travel on her Florabella passport to the UK, she would have trouble accessing her money that was transferred in the name of Marion, the bank would not accept an old passport as ID, and because she was not a resident to the UK they would have only accepted a valid passport as ID.

The police will have access to the outward bound departure card and flight list, these are historical records that are never deleted as movement of people has been retained and recorded for centuries.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I wonder how Marion was getting around, she didn't have a car .... travelling to Byron Bay, Grafton, back to Ashmore, either someone was driving her or she bought a car. If she did buy a car that would show up somewhere I guess.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Sorry spamming the page today, a visitor visa is only for 6 months, I don’t think this has changed since 1997. I flew to the UK in 1998 but on a UK passport but I remember at the time my friends on a NZ passport struggled to stay in the country as When their working visa expired they could convert to a holiday visa but had to leave the country to apply and then come back in for 6 months maximum.

So to say she was going for a year would not have been possible unless she was flying out of the UK within the 6 months and spending time in Europe for 6 months of her trip but that would have all had to be preplanned and ticketed as they request proof on arrival, and that is something you would mention, oh I am going to ...uk, Italy, France ....because it would have been pre-booked and paid for.

 

[Kelliepat]

Answered some of my own questions again I see! I knew she returned on the Florabella passport. I keep thinking she went out on that one too. But it makes sense if it ran out when in England, she would run into problems. Maybe the idea was , she was to recieve documentation while with regrard to her passport which then she could use to change with the bank!

Marion received a new passport in May 1997 and it expired in 2007.

 

[Meligator]

I know what you mean. One thing also occurred to me about the untouched money that was being held in Barclay's Bank. It would make perfect sense that if it was in the name Marion Barter and ( am unsure as to the timing of things in getting the new passport, expiry of the old one etc..) but they obviously couldn't just release the money to Marion if she had a Florabella passport! But what happened? Could Marion not change her name with the bank and show them documentation in time...it has sounded like a lot of the official papers were tied up in terms of the name change and all she seemed to need was the passport. But wouldn't she twig before leaving Australia that her account was still in her Marion name and that would cause a major problem? Not saying anything pointed as we can all have complete oversights if something is done in haste, but from what we know of Marion, intelligent, seems to have taken care of so many things prior to her trip..seems odd that changing her name with her bank so she could access something as vital as money, would not have occurred to her.
Unless of course, she knew full well she did not intend to use it and was only going to be away for a short time and had enough in cash or travellers cheques. But then why set it up in the first place? Unless she thought she would be using the name Marion, which seems unlikely because it appears that in chaging her name in May and not leaving for another month- she was well prepared to go by Florabella at least as far as the passport was concerned. Do we know how and when she set up the transfer from CBA over to Barclays? Was she hoping to have changed things with the bank and it actually slipped her mind?

Also, I don't really understand how if Barclay's was in Marion's name - it must have transferred from an account in the Marion name. If that was the case and she needed photo i.d for the $5,000 increments in Byron Bay- how did she manage that with the Florabella passport on her return? Or did she change the bank details when she got back, because by then she had recieved any required paperwork? (I would be surprised if you can make an official name change and not have all that is required to change it on official things pretty quickly. Surely that would cause a lot of serious problems in daily life! )Unless they accepted something like a drivers licence instead and that was still in the Marion name? I am very confused I think...

Do we know when her actual Marion passport expired? If it was still valid is it a case of handing it in as soon as name change is registered, how does it all work?

I personally think her plan was always to return to Australia, but to give the appearance she disappeared in UK (e.g., leaving untouched money in her UK account, return on a passport that no one would connect to her). In fact, if the bank teller in Byron Bay hadn’t confirmed to Sally that money was being removed—the search for Marion would most likely have focused on UK for a long time.

 

[Meligator]

I wonder how Marion was getting around, she didn't have a car .... travelling to Byron Bay, Grafton, back to Ashmore, either someone was driving her or she bought a car. If she did buy a car that would show up somewhere I guess.

Not sure about 1997, but her whereabouts seem to align with current bus routes.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Marion received a new passport in May 1997 and it expired in 2007.

Do you know if the new passport was in the name of Florabella ?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Not sure about 1997, but her whereabouts seem to align with current bus routes.

Sure, bus is possible, I guess even a hire car possible too .... but would she risk taking buses everywhere, more chance of being seen by someone she knew I reckon ..

 

[Itsapuzzle]

One thing that hasn't really been gone into too much in the podcast is this most interesting occurrence mentioned in Episode 4 Taken at (4.48). Who was that policeman? And surely there would be documentation in the Marion Barter file regarding it .... one would imagine, that could lead to some answers.

" .... Sally is adamant she went to Byron Bay police on October the 22nd 1997. It wasn't long before she got a call back. The following is from Sally's 2010 police statement. 'In a matter of days I got a phone call from Byron Bay police. He had told me that he had located my mum and she didn't want anyone to know where she is, or what she was doing. I think I asked him more about where she was and how he found her but he told me he couldn't give me any more information because mum had indicated she didn't want contact with anyone. I was absolutely flabbergasted and quite upset. '"

 

[Kelliepat]

Do you know if the new passport was in the name of Florabella ?

Yes.