IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

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Exactly!! In the photo holding the doll, the actor is at waist level to the railing. If he hinges from the waist, his head will either breach the window or come extremely close. Factor in going up on ones toes if the objective is to see what’s below, and the conclusion is obvious.

IMO, the railing is right below his rib cage. I challenge anyone to hang by the rib cage over that what? 3 to 4 inch wooden bar? Again, no measurements supplied for how wide the railing is.

If the railing was absent, I could see the above scenario. But, I do not believe that anyone, not even RCCL, has allegated that SA was standing on his toes. That particular re-creation, IMO, is just to show what SA would have to do to even hit the tip of his head on the window glass.
 
RCL Release? Response? Idea - Alternative Dispute Resolution?
.... So, do you think it was fair for RCCL to release only the video... then to state in their motion for dismissal that SA leans all the way out the window prior to lifting Chloe? ....
@foreveryoung :) sbm bbm
1. RCL has not "released" anything in the past week, not since July, IIRC. No media releases or other public releases. What they have done is filed motions in court, and those are public. MSM and individuals accessed ct websites/services to copy them and then published/printed/broadcast/ wiki-ed/ tweeted/Facebooked/blogged/streamed/youtubed/SM'ed them. Not RCL. If the cruise line had requested the judge to seal those doc's, would ppl be clamoring for them, howling about how RCL is trying to keep its responses deep, dark secrets? ITS.

2. That's what a defense's pleading or motion does - tells clients' response about who, what, where, when, why, or its interp about the matter. The same way atty-W's Complaint did. If not thru ct-filed doc's, how would RCL defend the lawsuit?


<<<:D:rolleyes::D A pers-injury attorney friend's idea for new method of Alternative Dispute Resolution:
Plaintiff, Defendant, & Attys sit in conference. Def. agrees w everything alleged in Complaint, then gets out checkbook. In the $ section, writes 1, then a zero, keeps writing zeros until both the plaintiff & atty holds up their hands, saying "Stop, we can't take any more." :rolleyes::D:rolleyes: Bada-bing-.Bada-boom.>>>
 
Alleged Failure to Comply w 'Safety Standards.' Applicable/Relevant?
ASTM* Is an ASTM Standard a law?
Short Version: No, not necessarily a law. Complying w ASTM may be only "best practices" i.e., not mandatory. So even if ship did not comply w a certain ASTM std. that is not a necessarily a 'violation' of law.
Longer Version: Complaint alleges multiple times that RCCL's Frdm/Seas window configuration violates ASTM standards. Per below, compliance w ASTM standards is voluntary, unless adopted as a requirement by "an external contract, corporation, or government." *
Not clear to me if US govt, or interntl compact, etc. have adopted any ASTM stds as applicable to RCL Alleged ASTM 'violation' may/may not be relevant or material. Even if a gov't, international compact, etc. has adopted many ASTM standards, a given std may not apply to Frdm/Seas. Like the one below, imo.


* "ASTM International,... is an international standards organization that develops and publishes voluntary consensus technical standards for a wide range of materials, products, systems, and services...
"ASTM International has no role in requiring or enforcing compliance with its standards. The standards, however, may become mandatory when referenced by an external contract, corporation, or government.

ASTM International - Wikipedia

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
That's ^ gen background re ASTM.. Below, one ASTM std. Complaint alleges re non-compl & negligent.
ASTM F2006- 17
Complaint, paragraph 26, alleges non-compliance w ASTM F2006- 17. The ASTM Notes, issued w standard itself, state, it applies to windows installed in "multiple family apartment buildings."
1. Scope

1.3 This safety specification applies only to devices intended to be applied to windows installed at heights of more than 75 ft 7 (23 m) above ground level in multiple family dwelling buildings...."
^ from ASTM F2006 - 17 Standard Safety Specification for Window Fall Prevention Devices for Non-Emergency Escape (Egress) and Rescue (Ingress) Windows bbm
(If anyone drills down in ^ link and finds this std applies to Frdm/Seas, I'll send you a replica of the Reenactment Not-to-Scale Bikini Barbie/Ariel Doll. Just kidding.:D )

Complaint, paragraph 27 "...Defendant knew or should have known of the industry standard set forth by above ASTM standards, yet Defendant’s vessel was not in compliance."
Complaint, paragraphs 34 and 35 allege cruiseline breached its duty of care in various ways and specifically in sub (i) by
"Failure to incorporate applicable standards, including the ASTM and/or other industry standards..."
Since that particular ASTM standard applies to windows installed in "multiple family apartment buildings" it is not applicable to ship. RCL's failure to comply w that not-applicable standard was not a breach of duty of care, as alleged in para 35(i).


IOW, Complaint alleges non-compliance/violation of a safety standard that is irrelevant, immaterial (does not pertain).

-------------------------------------------------------------------
@Forever Young bbm sbm Maybe rethink?


I was able to find a similar case. The wording in the complaint and response is very similar to the case(s) we are discussing. It happened at a hotel in California, and the article is dated 2014. I am unsure of the final outcome of this particular case, i. e. if there were further appeals.

The family claimed that the hotel was negligent when their five year old son fell from a second story window when the screen he was leaning on gave way.

"Window Code Compliant
The Beach and Tennis Club defended the lawsuit claiming Michael’s parents were careless and inattentive, and the screen through which he fell was not a safety device and was not defective; additionally, the window complied with all applicable building codes.

The trial court ruled for the Club concluding it was not required to “forestall the foreseeable consequences of others’ negligent conduct.”

Innkeeper Duty
In California, a hotel owner or innkeeper “owes a duty to its guests to maintain the premises in a reasonably safe condition…a duty to protect guests against unreasonable risk of physical harm…an innkeeper is not an insurer of the safety of the guests.” So the cases say.

New Law
The Fourth District Court of Appeal ruled that a property owner’s compliance with the building code does not in and of itself establish that the owner has exercised due care. The Court, I believe creating a new, higher standard of care for hotels in California, wrote: “Balancing the foreseeability of the risk of harm against the burden of eliminating or mitigating the risk weighs in favor of a determination that the scope of a hotel owner’s duty includes taking measures to protect children from falling from such windows.”

The La Jolla Beach Tennis Club case is what is called a summary judgment decision so is viewed most favorably to the plaintiff, but young Michael’s parents are now allowed to take their case to a jury (where they must prove negligence) because the Court of Appeal found the Beach and Tennis Club failed to show it had no duty to take measures to prevent an accident like Michael’s.

Unless the Legislature steps in or this case is overturned by the California Supreme Court, this decision will have a profound impact and essentially require hotels in California to install window safety devices."

Hotel Responsible for a Child's Fall from a Window? - Porter Simon
Do you think this terrible tragedy will result in changes being made to the design of RC future ships? I just wonder about the impact it will have if any going forward. I’m not blaming the design of the ship at all it’s just something I have wondered about.
 
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IMO, the railing is right below his rib cage. I challenge anyone to hang by the rib cage over that what? 3 to 4 inch wooden bar? Again, no measurements supplied for how wide the railing is.

If the railing was absent, I could see the above scenario. But, I do not believe that anyone, not even RCCL, has allegated that SA was standing on his toes. That particular re-creation, IMO, is just to show what SA would have to do to even hit the tip of his head on the window glass.
Ok. Let’s agree that the railing hits the actor right below the rib cage. There is a lot of flexibility at that point, as soft tissue comes into play.... not bone. I also SPECULATE that SA is on his toes because it is a natural stance for a person to take when trying to see something over a railing. Going on tiptoe gives a lot more leverage... more viewing capacity. I’ve done it myself and tested the theory again at home.
Notwithstanding the above comments, the video shows SA approaching that particular window with definite purpose and arms EXTENDED. No doubt in my mind that SA breached the open window, either with his head or arms. And all the “ baseless” re-enactments will not change that
 
Do you think this terrible tragedy will result in changes being made to the design of RC future ships? I just wonder about the impact it will have if any going forward. I’m not blaming the design of the ship at all it’s just something I have wondered about.

Imagine owning and running a huge fleet of ships like this and there is just one death that has occurred.
I have read people who plan their suicide book a cruise to jump overboard, how is this to be stopped and has there been any attemps at stopping this sad occurance?
There are fools who climb from one balony to another and there are others who jump off the ship for laughs.
How can this be stopped and has there been any attempts at stopping it?
I wonder if anyone has blamed a cruise line for this tomfoolery?
Only maybe a couple, maybe.

Now we have the death of Chloe at the hands of her step grandfather.....is this one off going to close off all access to open air so this won't happen again?

I don't think so.
But to blame the cruise line for this event, well of course the cruise line must stand it's ground when it had nothing to do with someone's stupidity.

I, for one, don't want the balconies to be grilled up, the walkways and openair pavillions to be blocked and the cruise lines know this.
 
Who Provided Vids to La Comay/PR TV?
Is it fair to say that RCCL is probably the one who "leaked" the video to La Comay?
I assume LE has all 13 camera views from RC. Only 2 views were leaked. These are the same 2 views that RC chose to use in their motion to dismiss.
. @Chikkamma :) The most obvious? Likely.

Who possibly had access?
--- RCL employee, from Corp/HQ, or Fr/Seas.
--- RCL's counsel, employee.
--- Contractor's employee for surv cam system, if not handled by RCL in house.
--- PR LE employee.
--- PR prosecution employee.
--- Def atty for SA, or employee.


Possible motive? $$$ Advantage in litigation? Personal animosity? Or?
Those two particular vids. Hmmm.
 
Well considering Winkleman was showing the video he got from the defense to certain media personnel and getting them to agree with him that the video showed his version I'm not surprised somehow the media got a cell phone copy of a tv screen showing the CCTV footage. Either he leaked it thinking that would either taint the jury pool (an argument that a lot of people were trying to make when it was first released, insisting this would create a mistrial for SA) or get more public support for their side. That still equals points for the wiegand family.

RCCL has so far been dealing directly with the courts. They don't care what the public thinks, they care what the judge/court thinks. This isn't the first time they've been sued and probably won't be the last.

I still feel that Winkleman played with fire hoping that people would buy his version and got burned when instead it outraged people.

IMO, RCCL cares very much about what the public thinks. A case could be made that it was RCCL that leaked the video, precisely to gauge what the public thought they were seeing.

From Business Insider April 29, 2019:

The CEO of Carnival reveals the cruise industry's greatest challenge right now

"Carnival relies on a variety of channels to reach potential customers, including social-media posts from passengers, travel agents, traditional advertising, cold calling, and TV shows it has created for major networks, such as ABC's "Ocean Treks" and NBC's "The Voyager."

The ultimate goal, according to Donald, is to have every potential customer encounter a "positive feeling" about the cruise industry multiple times each day.

"We're always looking for how to get the story out," he said."
 
Is it fair to say that RCCL is probably the one who "leaked" the video to La Comay?

I assume LE has all 13 camera views from RC. Only 2 views were leaked. These are the same 2 views that RC chose to use in their motion to dismiss.

IMO, yes. All U. S. news stations state that they agreed not to show the videos on air and did not themselves have copies.
 
I don’t think so. I mean, honestly I think if this were an ongoing danger instead of a terrible lapse in judgement we would hear about babies being dropped out of windows all the time. This was a terrible, hideous, awful consequence of a very, very poor choice on SA’s part. Regardless of where anyone stands on the logistics of the case, I think we can all agree that there will be NO winners in the end. But I cannot imagine any cruise line feeling that they need to change their design.

They have informed Winkleman that this area where the incident occurred will be destroyed. Are they going to refurbish it exactly the way it was, or will it result in a change of design? I don't think anyone has an answer to that right now, but it is something I do wonder about.
 
IMO, the railing is right below his rib cage. I challenge anyone to hang by the rib cage over that what? 3 to 4 inch wooden bar? Again, no measurements supplied for how wide the railing is.

If the railing was absent, I could see the above scenario. But, I do not believe that anyone, not even RCCL, has allegated that SA was standing on his toes. That particular re-creation, IMO, is just to show what SA would have to do to even hit the tip of his head on the window glass.
5A6812B8-0462-4DD3-AE72-C0D74CF4BDD5.jpeg
27CF1585-AA1A-4724-A815-3A481FB8EAA6.jpeg
Here are the measurements of the timber railing also I am 5’4”, slim build and I can look over and down from the window.
Challenge achieved.
 
View attachment 226908
View attachment 226907
Here are the measurements of the timber railing also I am 5’4”, slim build and I can look over and down from the window.
Challenge achieved.

So that looks about 44.5" to the top of the rail and about 11 inches to the window frame. Need a measurement to the glass, looks to be about another 4 inches, so 15 inches total.

Also, I've tested this a bit, and you do automatically stand on tiptoes. It's just a natural thing to do, if your goal is to get as far over as possible.
 
5 y/o Boy Falls thru CA Hotel Window. Similar Case?
@Forever Young. Interesting find. Hotel Responsible for a Child's Fall from a Window? - Porter Simon
1. FY:"wording in the complaint and response is very similar"
Did you find a link to Complaint & Response pls? Or to appellate Opinion?
2. FY: "unsure of the final outcome"
IIUC, from link, pleadings were filed; some discovery was done (boy was deposed). Expert testified at trial about # of child-window-fall deaths. No other info about evd. On motion for summary judgment, tr. ct ruled for def-hotel. Appellate court remanded to trial court (= do over/try again). Per link: "parents are now allowed to take their case to a jury (where they must prove negligence)..."
3. Wiegand case, Adult held toddler by or out window, dropped her. Says he thought there was glass.
CA case. Boy's mother opened window. In deposition, boy testified he put his foot on window sill and fell when he leaned forward to see something.

If anyone tracks down updates and links, esp ^ Appellate Opinion, Complaint, Response, & later Opinion, it will be interesting to compare further. :)

I was able to find a similar case. The wording in the complaint and response is very similar to the case(s) we are discussing. It happened at a hotel in California, and the article is dated 2014. I am unsure of the final outcome of this particular case, i. e. if there were further appeals.
New Law
The Fourth District Court of Appeal ruled that a property owner’s compliance with the building code does not in and of itself establish that the owner has exercised due care. The Court, I believe creating a new, higher standard of care for hotels in California, wrote: “Balancing the foreseeability of the risk of harm against the burden of eliminating or mitigating the risk weighs in favor of a determination that the scope of a hotel owner’s duty includes taking measures to protect children from falling from such windows.”
The La Jolla Beach Tennis Club case is what is called a summary judgment decision so is viewed most favorably to the plaintiff, but young Michael’s parents are now allowed to take their case to a jury (where they must prove negligence) because the Court of Appeal found the Beach and Tennis Club failed to show it had no duty to take measures to prevent an accident like Michael’s.
Unless the Legislature steps in or this case is overturned by the California Supreme Court, this decision will have a profound impact and essentially require hotels in California to install window safety devices."

Hotel Responsible for a Child's Fall from a Window? - Porter Simon
 
They have informed Winkleman that this area where the incident occurred will be destroyed. Are they going to refurbish it exactly the way it was, or will it result in a change of design? I don't think anyone has an answer to that right now, but it is something I do wonder about.

Bbm. To be fair, I imagine Winkleman chose the word “destroyed” to make it appear that RCCL is trying to destroy evidence. RCCL may have simply informed him that the area was going to be refurbished- not that they were bringing in the demolition team to blow up all traces of the death trap windows.
 
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So that looks about 44.5" to the top of the rail and about 11 inches to the window frame. Need a measurement to the glass, looks to be about another 4 inches, so 15 inches total.

Also, I've tested this a bit, and you do automatically stand on tiptoes. It's just a natural thing to do, if your goal is to get as far over as possible.


So we are saying that the widely disseminated measurements of 18 inches from the railing to the window (per David Begnaud), and the 4 feet high railing are not correct? The railing looks less than 2 inches wide? Is this why no measurements are taken in the plaintiff's re-enactment? IMO, it makes all the difference.

FactFinder, that bolded part sounds dangerous, IMO. Isn't that how one becomes top heavy and loses their balance?
 
For reference: post by @Chikkamma, which prompted post below.
"Is it fair to say that RCCL is probably the one who "leaked" the video to La Comay?
I assume LE has all 13 camera views from RC. Only 2 views were leaked. These are the same 2 views that RC chose to use in their motion to dismiss."


IMO, yes. All U. S. news stations state that they agreed not to show the videos on air and did not themselves have copies.
@Forever Young My apologies for being dense:confused:, but is this ^ sarc? If not, source of info?

Not seeming to mesh w post (below) it quoted.
So-----Stns agreed not to show vids? But did not have vids? Vids of what?
Seems stns would not be able to air vids they did not have copies of. :confused:


That's it for tonight. ZZZ.
 
Perhaps another reason RCCL stated it as fact that SA knew the window was open was because Chloe did not bang on glass for 34 seconds while being held in limbo.

*Someone pointed this out in the comments section of a recent article and I thought it was an excellent point. Pretty big clue that he knew there was no glass.
 
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So that looks about 44.5" to the top of the rail and about 11 inches to the window frame. Need a measurement to the glass, looks to be about another 4 inches, so 15 inches total.

Also, I've tested this a bit, and you do automatically stand on tiptoes. It's just a natural thing to do, if your goal is to get as far over as possible.
Yes, and re: from the outer edge of window to the outer edge of that wood railing, the 15” measurement is in line with the earlier measurements posted here, using the actual tape measure. Wasn’t this by @they’ll get you ?
Which also means it’s less than the 18 inches, as reported by Wman. IIRC
Right? Do I have to go back and find it, please tell me no, LOL!
 
snip> Can you honestly say that you can see his arms folded underneath his chest and supporting his weight like the actor is doing? Between the random male sitting at the bar in the blue shirt obstructing and, well, SA's body obstructing I don't think anyone can say how exactly his arms are placed.

Yes, I can honestly say that, because that is what I thought I was seeing before seeing the re-enactment photos.

Compare the back shot video to the side view at the relevant time. I see a man's shoulders, back, buttocks, all behind the railing.

snip> If you look at the other photos included on page 41 of this thread, it shows that the man has his butt stuck out and is leaning forward so that it looks like the railing comes up to his chest area. <snip

I can't for the life of me figure out why everyone is trying to balance themselves mid-section on this railing, in an effort to prove they can, through extreme effort, reach outside the window.

If you can't reach the window opening by just standing outside the railing as you normally would, you're doing nothing but proving that you couldn't reach the window opening without doing something that would be extremely uncomfortable, not fun, and dangerous.
 
Yes, I can honestly say that, because that is what I thought I was seeing before seeing the re-enactment photos.

Compare the back shot video to the side view at the relevant time. I see a man's shoulders, back, buttocks, all behind the railing.



I can't for the life of me figure out why everyone is trying to balance themselves mid-section on this railing, in an effort to prove they can, through extreme effort, reach outside the window.

If you can't reach the window opening by just standing outside the railing as you normally would, you're doing nothing but proving that you couldn't reach the window opening without doing something that would be extremely uncomfortable, not fun, and dangerous.
Well, this makes no sense to me at all what you’re saying. It sounds irrational to me. Nothing personal, but I think I have to move one.

Have a nice night all.
 
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