OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #54

[evelezrn]

So could the confidential source/resource be FW? Just because she was present but didn't participate in the revenge discussions? Just an idea.

 

[Betty P]

We're all good. Stocked up, except for pickles and catsup, hubs is running low on Raisin Bran, but we have plenty of healthy oatmeal and raisins for his breakfast. No snack foods, but I've been doing some baking, which means we have to get out and walk every day. Cookies, cakes, brownies. I'm working off my supply of baking goods, some left over from Christmas.

 

[Cool Cats]

So could the confidential source/resource be FW? Just because she was present but didn't participate in the revenge discussions? Just an idea.

Opinion

If Fred was a confidential reliable source for BCI she would not have been arrested and charged.

The CRS information was known to the prosecution/BCI before the arrests because
there were multiple conversations, and it was brought up first thing at Fred's bail hearing .

This means that Fred would have been talking to BCI in those months leading up to the arrests and Fred is too smart to give inside murder information without an attorney present to make sure she has 100% immunity.

So the point is that if Fred cooperated it was before, not after her arrest and because it was before, she never would have been arrested Period.

One other way you know this is because Rita was charged with 5 felonies and as soon as she cooperated she was dropped to just one misdemeanor charge. This is even after she admitted lying to LE, admitted to committing a crime.

I believe the prosecution would have loved it if Fred had cooperated with them and it makes no sense to reward a witness like her, who has inside information, by arresting her and charging her with OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE and PERJURY.

Had she informed on the Wagner 4 there certainly would not be grounds to charge her with PERJURY and OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE and her attorney would have made sure.

 

[Cool Cats]

So could the confidential source/resource be FW? Just because she was present but didn't participate in the revenge discussions? Just an idea.

You say that Fred did not participate in the revenge discussions and I thought so too, until I transcribed what Canepa actually did say.

According to Canepa Fred might have been more involved in those conversations than just being a bystander:

Canepa:
"Certainly I'm not necessarily suggesting that she (Fred) would you know, become a hit man or anything of that nature but the State does have concerns about her participation in those conversations, potential coordinating of any of those sorts of efforts."

"Sorts of efforts" are revenge and escape.

And, Fred did discuss her GJ testimony with the Wagner 4 but I don't know if this information came from the confidential reliable source or from one of the other individuals with whom she discussed her GJ testimony.

Seems she talked to more than just the Wagner 4 and you have to wonder if Fred told someone what the 4 were saying about revenge and escape and then this person went to LE and is now the CRS.

Canepa:
"I would also note for the record your honor that she was previously ordered by specially appointed Judge for Grand Jury not to discuss her testimony that occurred in Grand Jury with any persons outside of the Grand Jury. And we again have information that she did in fact discuss that at length with other individuals again to include the now indicted Capital Crime Defendants which is her son and her son's family."

**Sorry everyone, I didn't mean to make 2 long boring posts about all this but the
confidential reliable source is very important to this Case I believe**

 

[Sillybilly]

CC how are you and your family?
BP how are you and your family?
Caylee how are you and your family?
Niner how are you and your family?
StrangeOne how are you and your family?
Raisinback how are you and your family?
IType how are you and your family?
Dudly how are you and your family?
This is a friendly check on Coronavirus and if any of the Websleuth poster has contracted it, also does anyone know how the Rhodens/Gilley and Manley family is doing thru this Pandemic?
Also SillyBilly hope you and Tricia and your family’s is kept safe during this Coronavirus.

Johnny B ... Thank you so much for thinking of other WSers in these very unsettling times.

WS has a thread on COVID-19 (we are already on Thread #31 and doing pretty much a thread a day). Very fast moving and informative thread and sure keeping us busy.

Stay safe and well everyone.

Just so we don't veer off topic in this thread, here's the link to the most recent thread on COVID.

 

[evelezrn]

Opinion

If Fred was a confidential reliable source for BCI she would not have been arrested and charged.

The CRS information was known to the prosecution/BCI before the arrests because
there were multiple conversations, and it was brought up first thing at Fred's bail hearing .

This means that Fred would have been talking to BCI in those months leading up to the arrests and Fred is too smart to give inside murder information without an attorney present to make sure she has 100% immunity.

So the point is that if Fred cooperated it was before, not after her arrest and because it was before, she never would have been arrested Period.

One other way you know this is because Rita was charged with 5 felonies and as soon as she cooperated she was dropped to just one misdemeanor charge. This is even after she admitted lying to LE, admitted to committing a crime.

I believe the prosecution would have loved it if Fred had cooperated with them and it makes no sense to reward a witness like her, who has inside information, by arresting her and charging her with OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE and PERJURY.

Had she informed on the Wagner 4 there certainly would not be grounds to charge her with PERJURY and OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE and her attorney would have made sure.

I was wondering if maybe she accidentally overheard the w4 having the revenge convo about it among themselves. But I didn't remember all those details in the response. Thanks for all the Links, research and valuable info you provide CC.

 

[Cool Cats]

I was wondering if maybe she accidentally overheard the w4 having the revenge convo about it among themselves. But I didn't remember all those details in the response. Thanks for all the Links, research and valuable info you provide CC.

Thankx to you too eve!

We are all in this together...

 

[Johnny B Bad]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>
CC
I really don’t think that FW would turn on Billy but if someone that stood to inherit the land and money might be the informant, Billy is FWs baby and she would back him to the very end, JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

CC
I really don’t think that FW would turn on Billy but if someone that stood to inherit the land and money might be the informant, Billy is FWs baby and she would back him to the very end, JMO

Johnny,
No one benefits financially from the 4 of them in jail. Billy was helping RW, the manager, run the place. Billy was with her conducting flying farms business when arrested.

The concern over money and property would be if they get convicted and inherit money/property while in prison. The State would be able to take a certain percentage for expenses possibly, as well as all the victims in a civil law suit.

What often happens is a will is kept the same but has a built in contingency plan.
Meaning, if they all get convicted, or certain ones get convicted and so on, that the will would express what will be done in those types of situations.

The 4 of them if convicted will need at least $100,000 between them to last 4 people a life time in prison. Prison is not free by any means if you want to use video, internet, phone, commissary (which include shoes, clothes, stamps, pens or pencils, envelopes, many personal care items, OTC medications, extra TP, a lock for your locker, food, drinks, and more) get better medical care, get outside purchases, use commissary items as prison money for goods and services and protection from other inmates....Plus they tack on restitution and court costs taking it out of your commissary every month.

Opinion without links....

 

[Loomis124]

You say that Fred did not participate in the revenge discussions and I thought so too, until I transcribed what Canepa actually did say.

According to Canepa Fred might have been more involved in those conversations than just being a bystander:

Canepa:
"Certainly I'm not necessarily suggesting that she (Fred) would you know, become a hit man or anything of that nature but the State does have concerns about her participation in those conversations, potential coordinating of any of those sorts of efforts."

"Sorts of efforts" are revenge and escape.

And, Fred did discuss her GJ testimony with the Wagner 4 but I don't know if this information came from the confidential reliable source or from one of the other individuals with whom she discussed her GJ testimony.

Seems she talked to more than just the Wagner 4 and you have to wonder if Fred told someone what the 4 were saying about revenge and escape and then this person went to LE and is now the CRS.

Canepa:
"I would also note for the record your honor that she was previously ordered by specially appointed Judge for Grand Jury not to discuss her testimony that occurred in Grand Jury with any persons outside of the Grand Jury. And we again have information that she did in fact discuss that at length with other individuals again to include the now indicted Capital Crime Defendants which is her son and her son's family."

**Sorry everyone, I didn't mean to make 2 long boring posts about all this but the
confidential reliable source is very important to this Case I believe**

Don't be sorry! I enjoyed reading it! Hope all is well.

 

[Betty P]

You say that Fred did not participate in the revenge discussions and I thought so too, until I transcribed what Canepa actually did say.

According to Canepa Fred might have been more involved in those conversations than just being a bystander:

Canepa:
"Certainly I'm not necessarily suggesting that she (Fred) would you know, become a hit man or anything of that nature but the State does have concerns about her participation in those conversations, potential coordinating of any of those sorts of efforts."

"Sorts of efforts" are revenge and escape.

And, Fred did discuss her GJ testimony with the Wagner 4 but I don't know if this information came from the confidential reliable source or from one of the other individuals with whom she discussed her GJ testimony.

Seems she talked to more than just the Wagner 4 and you have to wonder if Fred told someone what the 4 were saying about revenge and escape and then this person went to LE and is now the CRS.

Canepa:
"I would also note for the record your honor that she was previously ordered by specially appointed Judge for Grand Jury not to discuss her testimony that occurred in Grand Jury with any persons outside of the Grand Jury. And we again have information that she did in fact discuss that at length with other individuals again to include the now indicted Capital Crime Defendants which is her son and her son's family."

**Sorry everyone, I didn't mean to make 2 long boring posts about all this but the
confidential reliable source is very important to this Case I believe**

Yes, AC established that in the early bail hearings, etc. FW was involved in the conversations. No, it's highly unlikely that FW is cooperating with the prosecution. The confidential reliable source is likely someone close to or is employed by the Wagner family, JMO. Someone they trusted to be hanging around, maybe in another room, etc. when they were having discussions.

Canepa also indicated FW discussed her GJ testimony with someone.

 

[Cool Cats]

Yes, AC established that in the early bail hearings, etc. FW was involved in the conversations. No, it's highly unlikely that FW is cooperating with the prosecution. The confidential reliable source is likely someone close to or is employed by the Wagner family, JMO. Someone they trusted to be hanging around, maybe in another room, etc. when they were having discussions.

Canepa also indicated FW discussed her GJ testimony with someone.

Yes, as I mentioned also, it sounds like Fred discussed her GJ testimony with not just the Wagner 4 but with others as well:

Canepa:
"And we again have information that she did in fact discuss that at length with other individuals again to include the now indicted Capital Crime Defendants which is her son and her son's family."

This creates another senario, that Fred is the confidential reliable source by accident!

That she leaked her GJ testimony and what was said by the Wagner 4 to someone else.

#1.) CRS is wiretaps.
#2.) CRS is a close trusted employee who was in and out and overheard conversations.
#3.) CRS is a person Fred had conversations with. Fred trusted this person and during conversations (spur of moment not thinking it through) she divulged to this person conversations the Wagner 4 had. We all do this...sometimes alot.

I believe it is very possible that she confided in RW but I do not believe RW would have said anything about it to LE, it would have been someone else.
I think RW is the trusted keeper of many family secrets...2 Cents.....

Rhoden murder case: Charges against Fredericka Wagner dismissed

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Someone always comes up on here with something new, thanks Dudley.

Yeah. How would the Wagner's explain that the new boots they bought have suddenly disappeared?

Say you have me on Wal-Mart security buying
boots, and I am a suspect in a murder and BCI has partial boot prints from the murder scene and they think the boot prints come from the boots I bought that they think I wore to commit the murder. So they ask to see the boots and I refuse, so they pull out a search warrant and search my house looking for my boots etc...

Well, if I am guilty I play dumb because I threw them away, but if I am innocent I have my lawyer get them tested and save BCI a trip to my house.

NOTE:
Jake's lawyer says BCI doesn't have any Wagner shoes to match any shoe prints. Why?
Because the Wagner's threw them away.

Play dumb. Must'a got "lost" in the move to Alaska?


(Opinion: Wagner attire in fire pit somewhere in Southern Ohio)
https://25andfly.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/burning-shoes1.jpeg

It would be strange enough if 1 pair were bought and went missing without a good explanation, but 4?! (Were 4 purchased? I can't recall. But that rings a bell.) TIA

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Yes, as I mentioned also, it sounds like Fred discussed her GJ testimony with not just the Wagner 4 but with others as well:

Canepa:
"And we again have information that she did in fact discuss that at length with other individuals again to include the now indicted Capital Crime Defendants which is her son and her son's family."

This creates another senario, that Fred is the confidential reliable source by accident!

That she leaked her GJ testimony and what was said by the Wagner 4 to someone else.

#1.) CRS is wiretaps.
#2.) CRS is a close trusted employee who was in and out and overheard conversations.
#3.) CRS is a person Fred had conversations with. Fred trusted this person and during conversations (spur of moment not thinking it through) she divulged to this person conversations the Wagner 4 had. We all do this...sometimes alot.

I believe it is very possible that she confided in RW but I do not believe RW would have said anything about it to LE, it would have been someone else.
I think RW is the trusted keeper of many family secrets...2 Cents.....

Rhoden murder case: Charges against Fredericka Wagner dismissed

What about the other son? Is that possible? Or the pastor?

 

[GoBuckeyes]

This is also a specific men's shoe mentioned in the Wagner Evidence I forgot to add:

Reeboks Mens Rapid Response

RESPONSE RBBB8674 EN-12794295]

MOO, given how determined they were to go to so many Wal-Mart stores in such a short period of time to purchase the boots, if I'm on the jury I'm going to be hard pressed to buy the barn boot theory. They practically criss-crossed two-thirds of the state to get these specific boots.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Special Prosecutor Angie Canepa alleged a confidential informant told them of a meeting at Wagner's home with her family members where they had "conversations surrounding if one or more of them were arrested what the others were to do including taking revenge on those persons not arrested" and plans for escape. She also alleged they spoke of taking revenge on a special agent, Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader, and Attorney General Mike DeWine.




Canepa went on to say she wasn't suggesting Wagner would become a hitman, but alleged Wagner had gone against judge's orders not to discuss testimony before a grand jury earlier this year.

Wagner's attorney, James Owen, argued his client, a longtime Sunday school teacher, had no criminal record whatsoever and "has lived as close to the cross as anyone" and suggested she was "more innocent than anyone at the prosecution's table."
Rhoden family massacre: Prosecutor alleges Fredericka Wagner plotted revenge

Does anyone think she thought the W4 innocent when she participated in these revenge conversations? Almost from the standpoint of it being revenge talk in theory? I'm struggling w Fred. I want to believe she didn't know, but it seems she probably did. If only we could get the transcripts of those recordings. It seems like she probably knew, at the least after the fact, but I think there's a strong possibility she knew beforehand. All MOO.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I took it as a joke, not literally. Got a chuckle out of it.

I took it as a joke as well.

 

[Cool Cats]

It would be strange enough if 1 pair were bought and went missing without a good explanation, but 4?! (Were 4 purchased? I can't recall. But that rings a bell.) TIA

The specific boots listed in Angela's
Supplemental Discovery Evidence 3-20-19
under Boot Tread Research:

https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/732prfjygw6tp04l/images/1-af7990f0b4.jpg

Original SWAT 1152 Women's Classic 9" Side Zip Boot

Reeboks Mens Rapid Response



Tactical Research Sage Green Kiowa Boot



WALMART WOMEN'S GEORGIA BOOT G31

 

[Cool Cats]

What about the other son? Is that possible? Or the pastor?

What pastor? Of Fred's church?

Fred's oldest son went off and developed and managed his own farm so I do not believe he knew anything at all with the exception that he likely knew (opinion) about his mom going before the GJ because several people knew that, and everyone knew about the laser focus of his brother and family.

 

[Sleuth2u]

Opinion here... I doubt FW knew beforehand. I think the W4 would want total control and not want FW having a day or calling any shots. So if they talked about revenge in front of her (or with her) it was probably under the pretense of not standing for being falsely accused of murder.