Found Deceased TX - PFC Vanessa Guillen, 20, Fort Hood military base, items left behind, 22 Apr 2020 *arrests* #3

Status
Not open for further replies.
I honestly doubt the counting her present was anything more than someone trying to look out for her, tbh. If you have an otherwise reliable private and this is the first time they’ve not shown up to an accountability formation, the first thought isn’t something nefarious happened. It’s that they lost track of time, or overslept on a nap (everyone was supposed to be confined to barracks at this point due to COVID). We don’t know if it was leadership that accounted for her, or if it was a peer than made an excuse to account for her, but 99% of the time it wouldn’t really be a problem and would save the otherwise decent soldier some unneeded hassle for a mistake.

They did start looking for her that night, I believe. I’m not convinced they would have found her in the separate arms room even if they looked immediately. They probably wouldn’t have had access (AR probably locked it up and wasn’t a part of her unit), and they’re certainly not gong to go digging through pelican cases even if it was open. It’s not apparent if they even knew where she last was at that point.
When he hit her in the head and face with that hammer and then I belive stuffed her in the pelican case, wouldn't she bleed out? Maybe I missed this part, but no one saw a case just oozing out blood?
 
Last edited:
I honestly doubt the counting her present was anything more than someone trying to look out for her, tbh. If you have an otherwise reliable private and this is the first time they’ve not shown up to an accountability formation, the first thought isn’t something nefarious happened. It’s that they lost track of time, or overslept on a nap (everyone was supposed to be confined to barracks at this point due to COVID). We don’t know if it was leadership that accounted for her, or if it was a peer than made an excuse to account for her, but 99% of the time it wouldn’t really be a problem and would save the otherwise decent soldier some unneeded hassle for a mistake.

They did start looking for her that night, I believe. I’m not convinced they would have found her in the separate arms room even if they looked immediately. They probably wouldn’t have had access (AR probably locked it up and wasn’t a part of her unit), and they’re certainly not gong to go digging through pelican cases even if it was open. It’s not apparent if they even knew where she last was at that point.
When be hit her in the head and face with that hammer and then I belive stuffed her in the pelican case, wouldn't she bleed out? Maybe I missed this part, but no one saw a case just oozing out blood?
 
MOO a forgotten weapon and a false record are much different.
Unintentional misplacing vs. Intentional lying.
I think they are both very similar.

The Captain was in all probability, duty bound to report an incident involving a weapon being unsecured and unaccounted for. The weapon was not misplaced in say, the wrong rack in a secured armory. Nor had it been forgotten in the armory.

When the Captain returned the unsecured weapon and closed the matter with out a formal report, he was basically saying all weapons in his unit had been secured and accounted for during the training. This was not the case.
 
I think they are both very similar.

The Captain was in all probability, duty bound to report an incident involving a weapon being unsecured and unaccounted for. The weapon was not misplaced in say, the wrong rack in a secured armory. Nor had it been forgotten in the armory.

When the Captain returned the unsecured weapon and closed the matter with out a formal report, he was basically saying all weapons in his unit had been secured and accounted for during the training. This was not the case.

Hard to believe this is a conversation.
MOO bring on a full thorough toss of Ft. Hood. Wonder if there are more shoes to drop in 3rd Corps, as in there were weapons unaccounted for, rolls were regularly falsified, and sexual that harassment tolerated or at least soldiers making complaints were outed and ostracized.
 
When be hit her in the head and face with that hammer and then I belive stuffed her in the pelican case, wouldn't she bleed out? Maybe I missed this part, but no one saw a case just oozing out blood?
The Army uses Pelican cases for a reason.

Evidently, they are made from high impact plastic. As a result, they probably are not prone to ooze alot of fluids of any kind, even blood. Likewise, though the cases are not going to be water proof in the true sense of the word, my suspicion is that a properly closed Pelican case can take a pretty good soaking.

An experienced NCO on the forum related that such cases are very common on military bases and are used to store pretty much everything. Again, this is probably because they are pretty good at keeping things that are inside, in and keeping things that are outside, out.

He also related that the cases are used to both store unit property and also used by a lot of soldiers to store issued gear and even personal items. As a result, soldiers seeing Robinson wrestling a heavy Pelican case into a car were not going to raise an alarm- espescialy as it probably was not "oozing blood".
 
MOO a forgotten weapon and a false record are much different.
Unintentional misplacing vs. Intentional lying.

Hard to believe an a NCO would be defending a false roll call. Its virtually their sole job to keep account of soldiers and material and keep then in good condition.

Its far more likely not accounting for a soldier was for a self serving reason.
You keep referring to a "false record". There is no "record." You're literally having a formation and telling the person above you that you have everyone or know where everyone is. "All present and accounted for" does not literally mean that everyone is in that formation. It means that everyone is either present or their whereabouts are generally accounted for.

It's not like someone was going around notarizing documents swearing that all soldiers are present, in person, at that formation. It's a verbal confirmation, with notes likely written by the supervisor about whoever is missing (if anyone is missing). But these are still personal notes and not a record you could FOIA, for instance.
 
The Army uses Pelican cases for a reason.

Evidently, they are made from high impact plastic. As a result, they probably are not prone to ooze alot of fluids of any kind, even blood. Likewise, though the cases are not going to be water proof in the true sense of the word, my suspicion is that a properly closed Pelican case can take a pretty good soaking.

An experienced NCO on the forum related that such cases are very common on military bases and are used to store pretty much everything. Again, this is probably because they are pretty good at keeping things that are inside, in and keeping things that are outside, out.

He also related that the cases are used to both store unit property and also used by a lot of soldiers to store issued gear and even personal items. As a result, soldiers seeing Robinson wrestling a heavy Pelican case into a car were not going to raise an alarm- espescialy as it probably was not "oozing blood".
Yes, they are watertight and even airtight to an extent. They have breather valves on their sides to help with pressurization issues from altitude changes, but otherwise they're pretty damn sealed up. They're also heavy as sin on their own. I have no idea how he would have loaded a pelican case with an additional 100+lbs into the truck by himself. Quite a feat. It would have been super awkward.

But to the latter point, it is also not uncommon to see people struggling with pelican cases because, as you said, they generally load them full of gear and it's heavy. It wouldn't be suspicious in the moment, but perhaps later when you realize the context it would raise red flags. As it did.
 
Yes, they are watertight and even airtight to an extent. They have breather valves on their sides to help with pressurization issues from altitude changes, but otherwise they're pretty damn sealed up. They're also heavy as sin on their own. I have no idea how he would have loaded a pelican case with an additional 100+lbs into the truck by himself. Quite a feat. It would have been super awkward.

But to the latter point, it is also not uncommon to see people struggling with pelican cases because, as you said, they generally load them full of gear and it's heavy. It wouldn't be suspicious in the moment, but perhaps later when you realize the context it would raise red flags. As it did.

Yup, Pelican cases are pretty incredible. I have two Pelican Air Cases I travel with and I don't think I could ever switch to anything else. Light, but super tough... The opening/closing mechanism is also one of a kind. This is in regards to the Pelican luggage options, so not sure about how heavy regular Pelican cases are. I can totally see how military gear would make them really heavy and difficult to manage. And I agree, I am not sure how he was able to manage a Pelican Case with 100+ lbs in it. But adrenaline does weird things...
 
You keep referring to a "false record". There is no "record." You're literally having a formation and telling the person above you that you have everyone or know where everyone is. "All present and accounted for" does not literally mean that everyone is in that formation. It means that everyone is either present or their whereabouts are generally accounted for.

It's not like someone was going around notarizing documents swearing that all soldiers are present, in person, at that formation. It's a verbal confirmation, with notes likely written by the supervisor about whoever is missing (if anyone is missing). But these are still personal notes and not a record you could FOIA, for instance.

No worries. The murder investigation and congressional bunk toss will uncover the discrepancies.
 
Vanessa Guillén's mother speaks for the first time: "I don't really know how they killed her".

"“Arrancaron un pedazo de mí, lo más bello, lo más maravilloso, que es mi niña, cruelmente, no sé en realidad cómo me la mataron, porque nadie me quiere decir, porque dicen que estoy mala”, señaló en entrevista con Univision."

"Con respecto a las investigaciones, Gloria Guillén confesó que un soldado de la base dio mucha información para el caso, pero le dijo “yo no puedo hablar porque me matan, o me desaparecen a mi familia. Pero usted sí, porque no le pueden hacer daño.”"


https://www.univision.com/noticias/...-guillen-no-se-en-realidad-como-me-la-mataron


"They ripped away a piece of me, the most beautiful, the most wonderful, which is my girl, cruelly, I don't really know how they killed her, because nobody wants to tell me, because they say i'm not well, "she said in an interview with Univision."

"Regarding the investigations, Gloria Guillén confessed that a soldier from the base gave her a lot of information for the case, but said, “I can't speak because they kill me, or make my family disappear. But you do, because they can't harm you. ”

Mis pésames Señora Guillén.

MOO JMO

MOO JMO Poor Vanessa’s mother! She is being used and misled!
Mom says “I don't really know how they killed her, because nobody wants to tell me...” (Emphasis added)
Mrs. Guilllen apparently doesn’t understand English too well, and cannot read for herself that her daughter was bludgeoned to death by a 20 year old <modsnip> psychopath - all alone without the involvement of anyone else! There is no “they”!

“Gloria Guillén confessed that a soldier from the base gave her a lot of information for the case, but said, “I can't speak because they kill me, or make my family disappear” “They” again.
I don’t believe Mrs. Guillen knows anything in particular about the sad death of her daughter. If she really did have information, why would she hide it? Why would someone tell her to hide it?
It appears Mrs. Guilllen is being subborned to conceal evidence of crimes. Shall I say “They” are subborning her?
Doesn’t VG’s mom have a duty to tell she knows about her daughter’s horrible murder? If VG’s mom has information about potential danger to women soldiers at Ft. Hood, particularly Latinas, should she share that information or not?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
MOO don't think so. If it had been prior to her body's discovery, think it would have been part of the information shared.
MOO phone messages recovered are from communications subpoenas.


Here is an article mentioning that it had not been found as of June 18th.
Vanessa Guillen missing: Family says Texas-based soldier made sexual harassment claim before disappearance
I wonder if they burned it along with their clothes or at the burn site where the body was found. Tim Miller said there was a lot of other evidence left behind and investigators only took the piece of the lid.
 
I’m a few pages behind, but having read some posts from Thursday around the responsibility of the army as VG’s employer to keep her safe, I feel compelled to respond.

I can speak from an employers perspective (I work in Human Resources) and it IS an employers responsibility to protect the health, safety and well-being of all employees while they are at work. This isn’t just a “nice to have”, it’s a law (in the U.K. here certainly).

In the U.K. we have the HASAW (Health and Safety at Work Act) which requires employers to keep employees safe while on their premises and we aren’t just talking physical safety, but mental safety too. We also have the Equality Act which, among other requirements, makes it unlawful to discriminate or harass someone based on a protected characteristic (gender, for example). While I am not up to speed on US legislation, I know that you have similar laws.

While the Army could not have predicted that AR would bludgeon VG to death on their premises, they are responsible for his behaviour while at work and IF there were warning signs or red flags, these should have been dealt with. Perhaps they were, we haven’t seen his disciplinary record. I say IF, because he may have been a model employee, we just don’t know.

The main issue for me is that while they have the SHARP program in place, it means nothing if it’s just a tick box exercise. If employees do not feel that they are able to speak up and report harassment, then the SHARP program obviously isn’t working on their base. Fort Hood needs to take a look at their culture and shape up fast, because it is not acceptable for any employee to feel that they cannot speak up about harassment. Even with reporting mechanisms in place so that you could bypass your superior, VG still didn’t feel that she could report what had been happening. If other employees feel the same way, then SHARP clearly isn’t effective on that base and change is needed, fast!

At this point, I don’t feel comfortable blaming Fort Hood for VG’s death. Harassment is one thing, but a brutal murder is something else. I’m not downplaying harassment, I’m simply stating that no employer would reasonably expect that harassment would lead to murder. They are responsible for allowing the harassment to happen by not having an appropriate culture for reporting, but they shouldn’t be held responsible for allowing a murder to happen, even if it is a direct result of the harassment. If AR had been reported, disciplined and removed from base for harassment then yes, VG would likely still be alive. Still, that doesn’t make Fort Hood responsible for her murder. We also don’t know for sure that AR was even one of the people harassing her.

IF AR was knowingly violent and displayed violent outbursts at his workplace, then I would 100% be comfortable in blaming Fort Hood for VG’s death. As soon as any employee becomes physically violent at work, you discipline and remove them for many reasons but above all, to protect all other employees. However, we don’t know this to be the case.

Even if Fort Hood were knowingly condoning harassment or turning a blind eye, how were they to know that it would result in murder? We don’t know if AR’s motive to kill VG was to cover up sexual harassment or if he became enraged that VG turned down his advances, but it’s clear that no matter how many policies or procedures were in place, if AR was capable of murder in the manner in which he murdered VG, then no company policy or procedure could have stopped it.

To conclude my ramblings, I guess I just feel that while there needs to be a serious review of the SHARP program and culture on the base to prevent this from happening again, with charges brought against those who turned a blind eye, I don’t feel comfortable hearing people suggest that Fort Hood is response for VG’s death. Not unless they knew he was prone to violence. They could have had the best anti harassment program in the world, but AR was clearly a monster.
 
From what I'm reading on here now, this didn't happen 'suddenly, without warning', he exhibited signs of unaccepted behavior prior to this.
What was the unacceptable behavior? Unacceptable behavior as an indicator to violence seems to take two broad groups. One group can be acted on in the practical sense, one group simply cannot be acted on in the practical sense.

From what I have seen, Robinson was in the "cannot be acted on group". For example:

- Robinson was not say, torturing animals, there was apparently no documented history of threats to others, no pattern of suddenly retracted domestic violence complaints, no fascination with weapons beyond the norm for the military, no open political extremism, open interest in say, rampage shooters etc.

Rather, Robinson's past unacceptable behavior was apparently very "soft" and perhaps included:

- Viewing himself as an Alpha male, was shallow and always at least slightly self centered- even with male "friends", has no true friends, just aquantiances. In relationships with females, he is dominating, but non criminal. Enters into unethical sexual relationships etc.

We have all known people with various soft indicators. A significant number never commit any crimes (well, at least not on paper- "in spirit" can be different) at all, let alone murder. Pre emptive action against the soft types would be centered on: "I deem that you are not a "good" person and therefore, might commit a crime.... This is simply not sustainable.
 
Last edited:
I’m a few pages behind, but having read some posts from Thursday around the responsibility of the army as VG’s employer to keep her safe, I feel compelled to respond.

I can speak from an employers perspective (I work in Human Resources) and it IS an employers responsibility to protect the health, safety and well-being of all employees while they are at work. This isn’t just a “nice to have”, it’s a law (in the U.K. here certainly).

In the U.K. we have the HASAW (Health and Safety at Work Act) which requires employers to keep employees safe while on their premises and we aren’t just talking physical safety, but mental safety too. We also have the Equality Act which, among other requirements, makes it unlawful to discriminate or harass someone based on a protected characteristic (gender, for example). While I am not up to speed on US legislation, I know that you have similar laws.

While the Army could not have predicted that AR would bludgeon VG to death on their premises, they are responsible for his behaviour while at work and IF there were warning signs or red flags, these should have been dealt with. Perhaps they were, we haven’t seen his disciplinary record. I say IF, because he may have been a model employee, we just don’t know.

The main issue for me is that while they have the SHARP program in place, it means nothing if it’s just a tick box exercise. If employees do not feel that they are able to speak up and report harassment, then the SHARP program obviously isn’t working on their base. Fort Hood needs to take a look at their culture and shape up fast, because it is not acceptable for any employee to feel that they cannot speak up about harassment. Even with reporting mechanisms in place so that you could bypass your superior, VG still didn’t feel that she could report what had been happening. If other employees feel the same way, then SHARP clearly isn’t effective on that base and change is needed, fast!

At this point, I don’t feel comfortable blaming Fort Hood for VG’s death. Harassment is one thing, but a brutal murder is something else. I’m not downplaying harassment, I’m simply stating that no employer would reasonably expect that harassment would lead to murder. They are responsible for allowing the harassment to happen by not having an appropriate culture for reporting, but they shouldn’t be held responsible for allowing a murder to happen, even if it is a direct result of the harassment. If AR had been reported, disciplined and removed from base for harassment then yes, VG would likely still be alive. Still, that doesn’t make Fort Hood responsible for her murder. We also don’t know for sure that AR was even one of the people harassing her.

IF AR was knowingly violent and displayed violent outbursts at his workplace, then I would 100% be comfortable in blaming Fort Hood for VG’s death. As soon as any employee becomes physically violent at work, you discipline and remove them for many reasons but above all, to protect all other employees. However, we don’t know this to be the case.

Even if Fort Hood were knowingly condoning harassment or turning a blind eye, how were they to know that it would result in murder? We don’t know if AR’s motive to kill VG was to cover up sexual harassment or if he became enraged that VG turned down his advances, but it’s clear that no matter how many policies or procedures were in place, if AR was capable of murder in the manner in which he murdered VG, then no company policy or procedure could have stopped it.

To conclude my ramblings, I guess I just feel that while there needs to be a serious review of the SHARP program and culture on the base to prevent this from happening again, with charges brought against those who turned a blind eye, I don’t feel comfortable hearing people suggest that Fort Hood is response for VG’s death. Not unless they knew he was prone to violence. They could have had the best anti harassment program in the world, but AR was clearly a monster.

Good post.
If VG felt safe reporting, then at least a minimum discussion with AR would have occurred, possibly altering his path to further aggression toward VG.
Most women are wary of reporting as causing them to be viewed as complainers, damaging their career and friendships.
AND they also worry about damaging the aggressor's career too, in addition to the dread they feel for their own physical or social safety.
 
Last edited:
I've added more to the Case Archive.
The family and community far and wide in Texas and beyond, having big and small events to honor Vanessa.
For example, a huge convoy in San Antonio and a BBQ fundraiser and Cruise in Houston.

Such a terrible tragedy, but it will hopefully lead to better ways for military women to report abuse without fear.

I update as time allows, so, more to come.
Vanessa Guillen -TX- by amanda reckonwith
 
Hi. I'm new here.

There are a few things with this case I can’t make sense of and wonder if anyone here might have insight that explains them.

First, Vanessa’s ID is left behind in her Arms room. AR’s Arms Room is in a neighboring building. Wouldn’t she have needed her ID to get access to the building AR’s Arms Room is in? Either she would have to swipe her ID to open doors or show it to a guard. I can’t imagine a soldier wandering around in secure buildings without an ID and I can’t imagine doors are left unlocked for anyone to go in and out. I also can't imagine she carries a set of keys for various doors. Maybe I’m wrong about that, but it seems like an ID should be required. When I worked corporate jobs with far less important stuff going on, our IDs were either hanging around our necks or clipped to our waists. And we had to use them to open doors into office spaces and to get off elevators.

How did AR access the Arms Room at 8:30pm to get Vanessa’s body? Is a low-level soldier allowed to hold onto the key outside opening hours or is there a place keys are kept and a check out/check in process. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think there must be a check out/check in process. AR went home, then returned later. Did no one wonder why that key hadn’t been checked back in on time?

Why were there no supervisors making sure people were where they were supposed to be? No one ever stopped by and wondered why Vanessa wasn’t at her work station? Did no one try to call her or text her to see where she was? The person who worked with her that day noticed her stuff was there when they locked up. He/she never wondered why she hadn’t been there all day? Again, this is supposed to be a highly secure environment. How could someone go missing like that and go unnoticed?

Were there no guards patrolling that evening who saw AR pulling a heavy box out of the Arms Room and along the corridor? If it was well after working hours and a lot of things weren’t happening because of Coronavirus, shouldn’t that have seemed suspicious to someone? Do they even have guards?

I have this image of these supposedly secure areas of Fort Hood as being a kind of free for all with no guards or supervision of any kind. A bunch of twenty-somethings can wander off without their IDs and not come back, and no one bats an eyelid. Heck, they’ll even check them in as present when they have no clue where they are. They can go home with keys to highly secure areas and come back after dark, and no one thinks anything of it. They can pull heavy boxes out of highly secure rooms and through hallways at night and no one wonders what they’re doing. And there isn’t a surveillance camera in sight.

Vanessa disappeared on April 22nd, yet the witnesses who saw AR pulling the heavy box to his car came forward on May 18. Why did that take so long? Surely, they couldn’t have been unaware of the disappearance for almost a month.

Who claimed to see Vanessa in the parking lot at 1pm when she was already dead at that point. Was it a case of mistaken identity or was it someone trying to throw investigators off the trail? It can’t have been AR who told them that because he said he last saw her when she left his Arms Room to go to the motor pool.

Edited to ask one more question. If Vanessa and AR were in different units, why was she even over in his arms room in the first place? Do units share weapons? Do they transfer weapons between units? Does anyone who has knowledge of how things are done on bases have an insight into this?

None of this makes any sense to me at all. It seems like there were a lot of security lapses and a complete lack of oversight from people in supervisory roles. Is this normal on military bases in areas where weapons are stored?
 
Last edited:
Hi. I'm new here.

There are a few things with this case I can’t make sense of and wonder if anyone here might have insight that explains them.

First, Vanessa’s ID is left behind in her Arms room. AR’s Arms Room is in a neighboring building. Wouldn’t she have needed her ID to get access to the building AR’s Arms Room is in? Either she would have to swipe her ID to open doors or show it to a guard. I can’t imagine a soldier wandering around in secure buildings without an ID and I can’t imagine doors are left unlocked for anyone to go in and out. I also can't imagine she carries a set of keys for various doors. Maybe I’m wrong about that, but it seems like an ID should be required. When I worked corporate jobs with far less important stuff going on, our IDs were either hanging around our necks or clipped to our waists. And we had to use them to open doors into office spaces and to get off elevators.

How did AR access the Arms Room at 8:30pm to get Vanessa’s body? Is a low-level soldier allowed to hold onto the key outside opening hours or is there a place keys are kept and a check out/check in process. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think there must be a check out/check in process. AR went home, then returned later. Did no one wonder why that key hadn’t been checked back in on time?

Why were there no supervisors making sure people were where they were supposed to be? No one ever stopped by and wondered why Vanessa wasn’t at her work station? Did no one try to call her or text her to see where she was? The person who worked with her that day noticed her stuff was there when he locked up. He/she never wondered why she hadn’t been there all day? Again, this is supposed to be a highly secure environment. How could someone go missing like that and go unnoticed?

Were there no guards patrolling that evening who saw AR pulling a heavy box out of the Arms Room and along the corridor? If it was well after working hours and a lot of things weren’t happening because of Coronavirus, shouldn’t that have seemed suspicious to someone? Do they even have guards?

I have this image of these supposedly secure areas of Fort Hood as being a kind of free for all with no guards or supervision of any kind. A bunch of twenty-somethings can wander off without their IDs and not come back, and no one bats an eyelid. Heck, they’ll even check them in as present when they have no clue where they are. They can go home with keys to highly secure areas and come back after dark, and no one thinks anything of it. They can pull heavy boxes out of highly secure rooms and through hallways at night and no one wonders what they’re doing. And there isn’t a surveillance camera in sight.

Vanessa disappeared on April 22nd, yet the witnesses who saw AR pulling the heavy box to his car came forward on May 18. Why did that take so long? Surely, they couldn’t have been unaware of the disappearance for almost a month.

Who claimed to see Vanessa in the parking lot at 1pm when she was already dead at that point. Was it a case of mistaken identity or was it someone trying to throw investigators off the trail? It can’t have been AR who told them that because he said he last saw her when she left his Arms Room to go to the motor pool.

None of this makes any sense to me at all. It seems like there were a lot of security lapses and a complete lack of oversight from people in supervisory roles. Is this normal on military bases in areas where weapons are stored?

All of these are good
questions and why there is a congressional investigation going on.
MOO Falsified roll call at 3pm is just the visible tip of the iceberg.
 
Last edited:
All of these are good
questions and why there is a congressional investigation going on.
MOO Falsified roll call at 3pm is just the visible tip of the iceberg.
Boxer - please post an internet link that says: "there is a congressional investigation going on".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
87
Guests online
4,046
Total visitors
4,133

Forum statistics

Threads
593,284
Messages
17,983,737
Members
229,075
Latest member
rodrickheffley
Back
Top