Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[kaykay543]

I had read somewhere that there was a sex video/snuff film starting Jonbenet someone had seen in the Dark Net. I’m not a detective or anything. I just read a lot about this. I wonder if anyone hear could locate any of the threads talking about this? And it may have just been one person commenting even on this forum.
I am pretty much 100% on that they said JR was where it came from. Like he made it /sold it and put it out into Pedioworld

That has been a rumor for years. Especially after the Nancy Krebs fiasco which most people won't discuss. I have never personally seen any proof of any of it. I really feel if it was true it would have come out by now. It would have involved a lot of people. My experience has been the more people involved the more likely one will talk; if nothing else but for monetary gain. I don't feel it could have been kept quiet this long.

 

[Tiffanygrove]

I will say here that I was the court-appointed supervisor years ago for supervised visitation for a mother who had sexually molested her two young children. I believe the root of her behavior was the sexual abuse she suffered herself as a child, her obsessive-compulsive nature, and thinking her children were literally an extension of her own body that she 'owned'. The memory of those visitations still gives me goosebumps.

I think they were involved in a high powered, child-sharing, swingers club. Even if they acted low key about it.

 

[Woodbine55]

I think BR and JBR left whites party early. JBR wasn't feeling well. That's why a crab plate was made for her, for PR to take. So the patents dropped the kids home and went back to FW.
When JR and PR went to SS house , without their kids they found out DS was not home. That is why they then rushed home. For fear their would be a replay of the kids getting in trouble( sex play).
BR had been punished. Odd to me since the kids did anything they wanted and never got punished! Had to be something big. Like being involved in sex play with DS and JBR....at the Ramsey's Christmas party when police were called. Probally why JBR didn't feel pretty anymore.
PR must have totally freaked out!
SS probally thought PR shouldn't talk to police., so she answered the door. FW knew what happened but was convinced to keep silent.
FW was upset because maybe he knew the Ramsey's left the kids alone.
It seems to me that BR witnessed what DS did on Christmas...and he. Tried to help his friend, becoming part of the crime.
When PR and JR got home that night they found out their daughter was dead. DS took off on the bike. He was not supposed to be at the Ramsey house.
This is the only reason the families united..

 

[UKGuy]

I think BR and JBR left whites party early. JBR wasn't feeling well. That's why a crab plate was made for her, for PR to take. So the patents dropped the kids home and went back to FW.
When JR and PR went to SS house , without their kids they found out DS was not home. That is why they then rushed home. For fear their would be a replay of the kids getting in trouble( sex play).
BR had been punished. Odd to me since the kids did anything they wanted and never got punished! Had to be something big. Like being involved in sex play with DS and JBR....at the Ramsey's Christmas party when police were called. Probally why JBR didn't feel pretty anymore.
PR must have totally freaked out!
SS probally thought PR shouldn't talk to police., so she answered the door. FW knew what happened but was convinced to keep silent.
FW was upset because maybe he knew the Ramsey's left the kids alone.
It seems to me that BR witnessed what DS did on Christmas...and he. Tried to help his friend, becoming part of the crime.
When PR and JR got home that night they found out their daughter was dead. DS took off on the bike. He was not supposed to be at the Ramsey house.
This is the only reason the families united..

Woodbine55,
If Fleet White knew anything had happened at the Ramsey's Christmas party he would have told the police during his extensive interviews.

I reckon after his fall out with John once he realized John was somehow involved in JonBenet's death, he would definitely have gone public with such revelations.

One explanation for him not doing so might be a police request, i.e. a desire to put a lid on a case that could by law never go anywhere?

JonBenet might not have felt pretty because she was not wearing the clothes she really wanted to wear, hints of her tiff with Patsy over the red top?

DS is another one who will, one day, likely do a recorded interview then again he might look and compare Burke's lifestyle and think again?

.

 

[Tobiano8th]

from the poll, it would seem to appear that "sex abuse/molestation" is not an agreed upon fact.

assuming it's true, it seems like a blockbuster finding BUT at the same time the BPD detectives (no friend of the R's) don't seem to incorporate it in their key theories...... so it's this incredibly negative shocking situation but has no bearing on this case...... NOTE THIS WHOLE PARAGRAPH IS HYPOTHETICAL

 

[Tobiano8th]

editing didn't seem to work properly on previous comment.

i meant to say "may not have bearing on this case"...

 

[Tobiano8th]

i can't remember all the evidence i've read.... but i voted "no" to molestation...i voted "no" to anything untoward, but corporal punishment makes sense

 

[UKGuy]

i can't remember all the evidence i've read.... but i voted "no" to molestation...i voted "no" to anything untoward, but corporal punishment makes sense

Tobiano8th,
BPD detectives did agree JonBenet was sexually assaulted, including in the recent past as JonBenet had internal healing scars which signified this.

Due to the internal politics they were uncertain how to describe this, so it was named vaginal trauma.

There is a good outline of these events in Steve Thomas' book JonBenet Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation, Excerpt Chap 24

In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation--- that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed.

.

 

[Tobiano8th]

UKGuy, thank you...............

but am right to suggest that it didn't fit into either of the 2 core theories on this case (BR or PR accidental rage)?........ there can of course be stunning evidence that has nothing directly to do with case.

for the grand jury, did the DA produce what they actually think happened? or were they able to be vague? i.e. R's caused her death AND didn't look out for her welfare...... shocked it hasn't been leaked. or has it?

 

[Tobiano8th]

i probably want to believe "no"........... and i hate when a) people say for sure it's true, b) when people take it's being true then translating into crazy theories that are "for sure" as well. JAR flying privately from atlanta to boulder, back to atlanta, up to minnesota commercially, all in very short time. as if the police couldn't figure that out if it happened

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, thank you...............

but am right to suggest that it didn't fit into either of the 2 core theories on this case (BR or PR accidental rage)?........ there can of course be stunning evidence that has nothing directly to do with case.

for the grand jury, did the DA produce what they actually think happened? or were they able to be vague? i.e. R's caused her death AND didn't look out for her welfare...... shocked it hasn't been leaked. or has it?

Tobiano8th,
It was independently verified so most folks think its true.

Foreign Faction by James Kolar, Excerpt

Following the meeting, Dr. Meyer returned to the morgue with Dr. Andy Sirontak, Chief of Denver Children’s Hospital Child Protection Team, so that a second opinion could be rendered on the injuries observed to the vaginal area of JonBenét. He would observe the same injuries that Dr. Meyer had noted during the autopsy protocol and concurred that a foreign object had been inserted into the opening of JonBenét’s vaginal orifice and was responsible for the acute injury witnessed at the 7:00 o’clock position.

Further inspection revealed that the hymen was shriveled and retracted, a sign that JonBenét had been subjected to some type of sexual contact prior to the date of her death.

Dr. Sirontak could not provide an opinion as to how old those injuries were or how many times JonBenét may have been assaulted and would defer to the expert opinions of other medical examiners.

So independently of the specialists mentioned in Steve Thomas' book and prior to its publication, Meyer and Sirontak both opined that JonBenet had been sexually assaulted.

12-29-1996 Search Warrant for 755 15th Street, Excerpt

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 27, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury constant with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact. For further details on the autopsy see the attached document entitled Addendum To Search Warrant.

It fits into BDI and JDI, Thomas' PDI, i.e. bedwetting, rage assault, etc does not fit much of the available evidence, there were suggestions Steve Thomas revised his original theory to that of bedwetting and PDI due to Ramsey complaints and threats of litigation, e.g. Vaginal Trauma is a hint, i.e. not Sexual Assault.

Steve Thomas was eventually sued , over his book in court, search for the details online.


So the specialists think JonBenet was sexually assaulted both prior to and on the night of her death.

.

 

[Tobiano8th]

thank you again

can't the sexual molestation on the last night have been staging?

 

[UKGuy]

thank you again

can't the sexual molestation on the last night have been staging?

Tobiano8th,
Yes, if you want it to be so.

Two Medical Examiners thought she had been sexually assaulted, and they saw her body the during autopsy and after.

Everyone else is working from photographs or hearsay.

So if you think its staged you have to offer a pretty good case that says why Dr. Sirontak and Coroner Meyer have got it wrong?

.

 

[Tobiano8th]

maybe i didn't say it correctly........

they sexually assualted her when she was (to them) dead?..... is that really sexual assault?.... i'd say that's desecration of a body.

basically i'm saying whatever despicable action took place on her body, it was part of staging i.e. if she was never hit in head with blunt object, none of the sexual assault/desecration would have occurred.

i've read alot.. i always found the sexual assault evidence very very muddled....... shouldn't there be alot more DNA present? i think it's only PR's

 

[UKGuy]

maybe i didn't say it correctly........

they sexually assualted her when she was (to them) dead?..... is that really sexual assault?.... i'd say that's desecration of a body.

basically i'm saying whatever despicable action took place on her body, it was part of staging i.e. if she was never hit in head with blunt object, none of the sexual assault/desecration would have occurred.

i've read alot.. i always found the sexual assault evidence very very muddled....... shouldn't there be alot more DNA present? i think it's only PR's

Tobiano8th,

basically i'm saying whatever despicable action took place on her body, it was part of staging i.e. if she was never hit in head with blunt object, none of the sexual assault/desecration would have occurred.

The sexual assault claim is a binary choice and you are saying it never took place because what the Medical Examiners observed was a staged sexual assault, right?

Consider that JonBenet was sexually assaulted and that an attempt was made to obscure this by the use of the paintbrush? This is similar to the addition of the ligature to mask whatever took place before.

You really have two different actions going on that appear at odds with each other, yet are explained separately by different Medical Examiners.

So those that wish to deny a sexual assault happened simply merge these separate actions into one of postmortem staging and voila, we have no sexual assault!

Here are the separate opinions:
Foreign Faction by James Kolar, Excerpt

He (Dr. Sirontak) would observe the same injuries that Dr. Meyer had noted during the autopsy protocol and concurred that a foreign object had been inserted into the opening of JonBenét’s vaginal orifice and was responsible for the acute injury witnessed at the 7:00 o’clock position.

This is the staging action.

JonBenet Autopsy Report, Excerpt

Vaginal Mucosa:
A small number of red blod cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringement foreign matarial

...

This is evidence of the staging action.

1996-12-29: Search Warrant 755 15 Street, Boulder, Colorado, Excerpt

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 27, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury constant with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact. For further details on the autopsy see the attached document entitled Addendum To

This is evidence of a sexual assault.

Indirect corroboration is that Dr. Sirontak did not contradict Coroner Meyer's initial observations, he confirmed them his only qualification related to the period of chronic sexual abuse, and not its occurrence.

Remember Dr. Sirontak and Coroner Meyer actually examined JonBenet's body in real time postmortem, everyone else is just offering opinions based on photographs and third party expertise.

Now on the dna, there might be more present but the results have not been released. Where on JonBenet's body other family member's touch-dna was deposited has never been released.

i.e. if she was never hit in head with blunt object, none of the sexual assault/desecration would have occurred.

So why ligature asphyxiate JonBenet who needed immediate medical assistance?

basically i'm saying whatever despicable action took place on her body, it was part of staging

So why did the parents wipe jonBenet down change her underwear and redress her in her brother's longjohns, when this hides the sexual assault, does it not?

If you wish to claim there was no sexual assault then you must convincingly show why and where Dr. Sirontak and Coroner Meyer have got it wrong?

.

 

[Tobiano8th]

UK Guy, thank you very much

that defines "completely muddled" to me...

as per why do the staging, PR thought she was dead already and did unspeakable stupid things at that moment....... JR might have known she was not dead from his military training.

and then the clean-up, maybe she had second thoughts and guilt........ i would think people would have horrible thoughts after doing such a thing and want to immediately atone......... if the clean-up is legit to cover up a sexual assault within minutes, why do they need to kill the child "twice"?

they are very strange, contradictory actions to take but conflicting emotions is one of the most difficult situations to deal with in life

do the BPD detectives just white-wash sexual assault that night so it can fit in with whatever scenario they went with? .. my understanding is they can't go with "we know it's them, but it could have been many things"..... and prior sexual assualt could easily have zero bearing on the events of that night.

i think nearly everyone here thinks that RDI with alot of people going PR "toilet rage" or BR incident (pineapple is one).......... is JR, BR, BR "friend" sexual assault angles the other possilbilities?

i just don't see "sexual assault" and "staging"............ and i don't see the need to ligurature the child when she already seemed dead......... to me, it's all just horrible and poor attempts at staging.

 

[UKGuy]

UK Guy, thank you very much

that defines "completely muddled" to me...

as per why do the staging, PR thought she was dead already and did unspeakable stupid things at that moment....... JR might have known she was not dead from his military training.

and then the clean-up, maybe she had second thoughts and guilt........ i would think people would have horrible thoughts after doing such a thing and want to immediately atone......... if the clean-up is legit to cover up a sexual assault within minutes, why do they need to kill the child "twice"?

they are very strange, contradictory actions to take but conflicting emotions is one of the most difficult situations to deal with in life

do the BPD detectives just white-wash sexual assault that night so it can fit in with whatever scenario they went with? .. my understanding is they can't go with "we know it's them, but it could have been many things"..... and prior sexual assualt could easily have zero bearing on the events of that night.

i think nearly everyone here thinks that RDI with alot of people going PR "toilet rage" or BR incident (pineapple is one).......... is JR, BR, BR "friend" sexual assault angles the other possilbilities?

i just don't see "sexual assault" and "staging"............ and i don't see the need to ligurature the child when she already seemed dead......... to me, it's all just horrible and poor attempts at staging.

Tobiano8th,

to me, it's all just horrible and poor attempts at staging.

Yes, I agree, amateur staging is plainly visible. The two main red flags are Burke's long johns and the Bloomingdale's size-12's.

Anyone staging the crime-scene should know not to use these items as they detract from the intended purpose.

The forensic evidence suggests it was Patsy who ligature asphyxiated JonBenet, some have suggested she thought JonBenet was already dead and that she was assisting with the staging?

There is also the possibility that JonBenet was the victim of more than one person, since the alleged time-span for her abuse is in weeks if not months.

The collection of cutesy photographs found in the basement likely belonged to someone who was abusing JonBenet?

So someone other than Patsy redressed JonBenet in the size-12's and Burke's long johns, the same person likely removed JonBenet's size-6 Bloomingdale's underwear , worn to the White's Christmas party along with the remaining pairs of size-12 underwear?

So the major staging error was to remove the remaining size-12's a fact that would trash Patsy's attempt at an explanation for why JonBenet ending up wearing size-12 underwear intended for Patsy's niece, a girl twice JonBenet's age!

.

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip>So why ligature asphyxiate JonBenet who needed immediate medical assistance?<snip>

Person A, who lost their temper and whacked JonBenet on the head, told Person B that they had to get their hands dirty too.

 

[UKGuy]

Person A, who lost their temper and whacked JonBenet on the head, told Person B that they had to get their hands dirty too.

icedtea4me,
That sounds like an accidental head injury, why not dial for medical assistance?

The Person A , Person B scenario does not match the forensic evidence. If the case were not BDI and some variation on JDI plus PDI then the staging, e.g. the redressing of JonBenet would appear more authentic, and Burke Ramsey would not be linked in any manner to JonBenet.

Your Person A, Person B scenario must detail why and how JonBenet came to be wearing Patsy's niece's size-12 underwear, and Burke Ramsey's long johns, who removed the remaining pairs of size-12 underwear along with JonBenet's worn size-6 underwear?

.

 

[Tobiano8th]

UK, thx for more stuff...

she could have been sexually assaulted previously but that that perpetrator had nothing to do with the morning in question...

PR was almost assuredly was with the body in the basement room and wrote the note...

so PR was aware of the sexual assault and covered up the accidental hit (PR or BR) on the head with sex assault/ligature?

or she walked in on sexual assault, got angry and caused JBR death by accident?

i don't see evidence that there was sexual abuse by a traditional pedophile that night...... i see a horrible decision to try to make it look like a pedophile after the fact and ligaturing what she thought was a dead child........ p.s. i understand that those actions on someone who is not dead is sexual assault

the wiping is mentioned........ couldn't that have many motivations? the whole bed wetting and PR wanting her child to be presented with dignity.

so much of the staging action seems insane but PR was looking for anyway out of this mess. but then she has regrets and dignifies JBR after the fact...... it's impossible to judge someone under such horrible situation.