Skull fracture question

[BOESP]

that's what I was thinking...maybe an egg would be a good example.
you think JB was thrown,pushed or shoved into something,and then Patsy held her there,applying pressure to her head? and then her skull split from the pressure? I recall reading that her skull cracking would have made a tremendous noise..would pressure vs being hit w. an object be more likely to make that noise,or would it not matter,either way?

I don't think Patsy necessarily or purposely held JonBenet's head or purposely applied pressure with the intent of malice. Solace explained it best when she speculated that Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the collar, twisting and shoving and pushing her into a door, doorknob or other object. Or, if Patsy pushed and then JonBenet fell to the floor hitting her head or Patsy fell on top of her, that could also create a relatively low-velocity/high-pressure impact that would probably widen and lengthen the already formed fracture.

Alternatively, perhaps JonBenet was lying on the floor being cleaned and raised her head, struggling to get up, and Patsy pushed her back in anger, or some variation of this idea.

JonBenet could have been in the bathtub and slipped and fallen and Patsy grabbed her head. I think it's fairly conclusive that someone also violently shook JonBenet's head because of the damage described in the autopsy that is similar to Shaken-Baby Syndrome. If Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the head and shook her then the head hit something, that would also provide pressure.

There are probably other possibilities. As to the noise, I don't know whether a strike or a dull blow would cause more noise.

I also think Solace was on to something when she said she thought the two sets of pony-tails might have been used to hold the fracture together. I do believe that depression and the fracture could be manually felt from the outside. I would say a Mother would, if their child hit their head, probably feel around on the head to see where the damage was.

 

[BOESP]

that's what I was thinking...maybe an egg would be a good example.
you think JB was thrown,pushed or shoved into something,and then Patsy held her there,applying pressure to her head? and then her skull split from the pressure? I recall reading that her skull cracking would have made a tremendous noise..would pressure vs being hit w. an object be more likely to make that noise,or would it not matter,either way?

JMO, ignore the part where I initially said to apply pressure on the egg:

"If you have the eggs to waste in an experiment, try hitting one with a "weapon" of proportional size, then try holding it and hitting against a countertop while also applying pressure."

Just try striking it against the countertop in the normal way you would crack an egg - I lost my train of thought when writing that the first time ... toot toot, just call me Tweetsie.

A nail with a head also makes a good "weapon" to use for the first test (high-velocity/low-pressure). The second test, holding the egg and cracking it on the counter, would be low-velocity/high-pressure. Throwing it against the wall would be high-velocity/high pressure but I don't recommend doing that.

 

[DeeDee249]

As far as douching vs. sexual abuse (it could also be BOTH), it wasn't just the irregular hymen and larger vaginal opening. I imagine in court, the defense would rustle up experts to say that both were not unheard of. But what about the bruising- there were purplish areas (bruising), hyperemia and vascular congestion. SOMETHING was put into her vagina, whether it was a finger, paintbrush, or douche.
If PR thought that LE was pursuing the sexual abuse theory, wouldn't she then say that she used douching on JBR because she always had fecal matter in her vaginal area from improper wiping or soiling herself? By admitting this, despite the fact that it wasn't something that should be done on a child of 6, at least it could have removed the sexual abuse allegations. Yet she kept silent about it. If police had thought a family member was abusing her daughter, whether she sensed people would be shocked or not, wouldn't you think she'd admit to the douching?

 

[Ames]

I don't think Patsy necessarily or purposely held JonBenet's head or purposely applied pressure with the intent of malice. Solace explained it best when she speculated that Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the collar, twisting and shoving and pushing her into a door, doorknob or other object. Or, if Patsy pushed and then JonBenet fell to the floor hitting her head or Patsy fell on top of her, that could also create a relatively low-velocity/high-pressure impact that would probably widen and lengthen the already formed fracture.

Alternatively, perhaps JonBenet was lying on the floor being cleaned and raised her head, struggling to get up, and Patsy pushed her back in anger, or some variation of this idea.

JonBenet could have been in the bathtub and slipped and fallen and Patsy grabbed her head. I think it's fairly conclusive that someone also violently shook JonBenet's head because of the damage described in the autopsy that is similar to Shaken-Baby Syndrome. If Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the head and shook her then the head hit something, that would also provide pressure.

There are probably other possibilities. As to the noise, I don't know whether a strike or a dull blow would cause more noise.

I also think Solace was on to something when she said she thought the two sets of pony-tails might have been used to hold the fracture together. I do believe that depression and the fracture could be manually felt from the outside. I would say a Mother would, if their child hit their head, probably feel around on the head to see where the damage was.

I wonder if that could have been from Patsy trying to revive JB???

 

[BOESP]

As far as douching vs. sexual abuse (it could also be BOTH), it wasn't just the irregular hymen and larger vaginal opening. I imagine in court, the defense would rustle up experts to say that both were not unheard of. But what about the bruising- there were purplish areas (bruising), hyperemia and vascular congestion. SOMETHING was put into her vagina, whether it was a finger, paintbrush, or douche.
If PR thought that LE was pursuing the sexual abuse theory, wouldn't she then say that she used douching on JBR because she always had fecal matter in her vaginal area from improper wiping or soiling herself? By admitting this, despite the fact that it wasn't something that should be done on a child of 6, at least it could have removed the sexual abuse allegations. Yet she kept silent about it. If police had thought a family member was abusing her daughter, whether she sensed people would be shocked or not, wouldn't you think she'd admit to the douching?

DeeDee, if douching was involved and it was during that event that JonBenet died, do you still think Patsy would mention it? I don't think she would.

CAVEAT: the above is my opinion and this is a speculative question. DeeDee and I both know the douching hypothesis is for discussion only and not a fact.

 

[BOESP]

I wonder if that could have been from Patsy trying to revive JB???

I've wondered the same thing. It is possible. On the other hand, I've also wondered if Patsy could have shaken JonBenet in anger. There seems to be a combination of things that happened.

 

[Ames]

I've wondered the same thing. It is possible. On the other hand, I've also wondered if Patsy could have shaken JonBenet in anger. There seems to be a combination of things that happened.

I sure agree with THAT statement!!!!

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, if douching was involved and it was during that event that JonBenet died, do you still think Patsy would mention it? I don't think she would.

CAVEAT: the above is my opinion and this is a speculative question. DeeDee and I both know the douching hypothesis is for discussion only and not a fact.

Thanks for the caveat, BOESP.
I am not sure about whether PR would mention it or not...possibly, if she also said that it was something she did regularly. Then the fact that it happened close to the death would be less likely to be seen as PART of the death/staging if it was being portrayed as something that was an everyday (or nearly so) occurance.
Now let's hypothesize a bit more...PR goes to take JBR to the bathroom for her usual midnight potty run, finds that JBR had already gone in her pants, attempts to douche a tired, soiled, screaming, squriming JBR in the bathroom- and slams her hard into the tub/faucets.
I don't know about this....I can't imagine this scenario and PR NOT calling 911. While certainly knocking her unconscious, PR isn't a doctor and can't know that her child will die from that head slam. There is no scalp laceration. Unless PR felt the hole. THAT might account for her not calling 911.
So- a staged sexual assault could be done to cover up douching that led to her death indirectly (by provoking PR into such a rage that she fractured her daughter's skull), rather than vaginal stab done to cover up sexual assault.
Not sure about these theories. I have to see what you guys have to say about it.

 

[BOESP]

Thanks for the caveat, BOESP.
I am not sure about whether PR would mention it or not...possibly, if she also said that it was something she did regularly. Then the fact that it happened close to the death would be less likely to be seen as PART of the death/staging if it was being portrayed as something that was an everyday (or nearly so) occurance.
Now let's hypothesize a bit more...PR goes to take JBR to the bathroom for her usual midnight potty run, finds that JBR had already gone in her pants, attempts to douche a tired, soiled, screaming, squriming JBR in the bathroom- and slams her hard into the tub/faucets.
I don't know about this....I can't imagine this scenario and PR NOT calling 911. While certainly knocking her unconscious, PR isn't a doctor and can't know that her child will die from that head slam. There is no scalp laceration. Unless PR felt the hole. THAT might account for her not calling 911.
So- a staged sexual assault could be done to cover up douching that led to her death indirectly (by provoking PR into such a rage that she fractured her daughter's skull), rather than vaginal stab done to cover up sexual assault.
Not sure about these theories. I have to see what you guys have to say about it.

I'd go along with your hypotheses. The only exception is I think Patsy would have realized JonBenet was mortally wounded, or nearly so. She would likely convulse, slobber, and blood may have come from the nose and/or mouth, plus it seems probable that the wounds to the top of the skull could be felt. That depression would be a sure give-away that something was terribly wrong. I've even wondered if, perhaps, nasal bleeding is how the blood spots got on JonBenet's underwear.

If JonBenet were in the bathtub when this happened, I think a lot of evidence could have been washed away. Of course, this is pure speculation made from my interpretation of her wounds as stated in the autopsy. There are many things that COULD have happened.

I do think since no photos of JonBenet's bathroom were released to the public that something happened in there that was incriminating. Why release her bedroom photos and not the bathroom photos?

 

[rashomon]

I also think that the sexual abuse officer Holly Smith was not to far off in her theories.

Was it Holly Smith who visited JonBenet's bedroom and saw that virtually every piece of laundered underwear had signs of prior soiling? Were her conclusions that the wetting/soiling problems could have had ther origin in sexual abuse? Could she observe other things in the room which indicated to her that this might be a case of sexual abuse?

jmo

 

[rashomon]

To all - I'd like to know the source of

- LHP's statement about the screaming in the bathroom.

- Patsy saying she had been douching JonBenet.

TIA for your help.

 

[UKGuy]

..but the intent was the opposite,it was to downplay that area,ie-clean underwear=no R DNA.I'm really suspect of new underwear being placed on her...to me it spells out that the perp must make sure no R dna was on her there,and why worry about that if in fact none had been there??? that leads me to think it was placed on her to circumvent any sexual abuse evidence that might have been there.

JMO8778,

I agree with you, but those remarks were aimed at the Toileting theories, where some degree of normality should be the order of the day, not cleaned up sexual assaults, and garrotes.

In a sexual molestation scenario removal of the evidence would be first on the list of stagings?

.

 

[UKGuy]

As far as douching vs. sexual abuse (it could also be BOTH), it wasn't just the irregular hymen and larger vaginal opening. I imagine in court, the defense would rustle up experts to say that both were not unheard of. But what about the bruising- there were purplish areas (bruising), hyperemia and vascular congestion. SOMETHING was put into her vagina, whether it was a finger, paintbrush, or douche.
If PR thought that LE was pursuing the sexual abuse theory, wouldn't she then say that she used douching on JBR because she always had fecal matter in her vaginal area from improper wiping or soiling herself? By admitting this, despite the fact that it wasn't something that should be done on a child of 6, at least it could have removed the sexual abuse allegations. Yet she kept silent about it. If police had thought a family member was abusing her daughter, whether she sensed people would be shocked or not, wouldn't you think she'd admit to the douching?

DeeDee249,
Douching 6-year olds may be legal for all we know, but a douching defense sounds a whole lot better than sexual assault so as a defense would probably cut some ice.

Patsy would have to point to some evidence e.g. a douching kit, recovered from her house or listed as present, to make her claim credible, and not sound like a last minute defense, AFAIK we have neither.

its the evidence S...

.

 

[UKGuy]

I'd go along with your hypotheses. The only exception is I think Patsy would have realized JonBenet was mortally wounded, or nearly so. She would likely convulse, slobber, and blood may have come from the nose and/or mouth, plus it seems probable that the wounds to the top of the skull could be felt. That depression would be a sure give-away that something was terribly wrong. I've even wondered if, perhaps, nasal bleeding is how the blood spots got on JonBenet's underwear.

If JonBenet were in the bathtub when this happened, I think a lot of evidence could have been washed away. Of course, this is pure speculation made from my interpretation of her wounds as stated in the autopsy. There are many things that COULD have happened.

I do think since no photos of JonBenet's bathroom were released to the public that something happened in there that was incriminating. Why release her bedroom photos and not the bathroom photos?

BOESP,

I've even wondered if, perhaps, nasal bleeding is how the blood spots got on JonBenet's underwear.

Sure JonBenet sneezed as a last act of defiance just as Patsy placed the clean pair of size-12's upon her.

 

[UKGuy]

Was it Holly Smith who visited JonBenet's bedroom and saw that virtually every piece of laundered underwear had signs of prior soiling? Were her conclusions that the wetting/soiling problems could have had ther origin in sexual abuse? Could she observe other things in the room which indicated to her that this might be a case of sexual abuse?

jmo

rashomon,
Looks like Holly Smith was sidelined, but she appears to consider sexual abuse a relevant factor given other features.

JonBenet Investigator Talks Exclusively to Fox 31 News

She found something else in the room, however, which raised an immediate red flag. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material.

"There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith.

JonBenet also had a history of bedwetting. While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions.

"It's very different for every child, but when you have a child that's had this problem and it's pretty chronic for that child, and in addition you know some sort of physical evidence or trauma or an allegation, you put all those little pieces together and it just goes in your head," she says.

Smith adds, "There was an indication of trauma in the vaginal area."

http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/...n=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

 

[JMO8778]

I don't think Patsy necessarily or purposely held JonBenet's head or purposely applied pressure with the intent of malice. Solace explained it best when she speculated that Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the collar, twisting and shoving and pushing her into a door, doorknob or other object. Or, if Patsy pushed and then JonBenet fell to the floor hitting her head or Patsy fell on top of her, that could also create a relatively low-velocity/high-pressure impact that would probably widen and lengthen the already formed fracture.

Alternatively, perhaps JonBenet was lying on the floor being cleaned and raised her head, struggling to get up, and Patsy pushed her back in anger, or some variation of this idea.

JonBenet could have been in the bathtub and slipped and fallen and Patsy grabbed her head. I think it's fairly conclusive that someone also violently shook JonBenet's head because of the damage described in the autopsy that is similar to Shaken-Baby Syndrome. If Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the head and shook her then the head hit something, that would also provide pressure.

There are probably other possibilities. As to the noise, I don't know whether a strike or a dull blow would cause more noise.

I also think Solace was on to something when she said she thought the two sets of pony-tails might have been used to hold the fracture together. I do believe that depression and the fracture could be manually felt from the outside. I would say a Mother would, if their child hit their head, probably feel around on the head to see where the damage was.

ok thx,I wonder if there was blood in her eyes? b/c I remember when that english nanny shook the baby,his name was Matty,if anyone recalls that...there was blood in his eyes from being shaken.I don't recall seeing that anywhere in the autopsy report.
As far as the ponytails..that would require one on each side of her head,right?looking at the artist's drawing,it looks like one is on top of her head,and one right below it..more like to get her hair out of the way to apply the garrotte,IMO.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

I agree with you, but those remarks were aimed at the Toileting theories, where some degree of normality should be the order of the day, not cleaned up sexual assaults, and garrotes.

In a sexual molestation scenario removal of the evidence would be first on the list of stagings?

.

I think that's a good point...why the NEW underwear??? why choose new and big over something her size that had been laundered? b/c I don't think just the fact they said Wed. on them was the point of that...they were toooo big....something else was going on in the perp's mind.

 

[JMO8778]

Thanks for the caveat, BOESP.
I am not sure about whether PR would mention it or not...possibly, if she also said that it was something she did regularly. Then the fact that it happened close to the death would be less likely to be seen as PART of the death/staging if it was being portrayed as something that was an everyday (or nearly so) occurance.
Now let's hypothesize a bit more...PR goes to take JBR to the bathroom for her usual midnight potty run, finds that JBR had already gone in her pants, attempts to douche a tired, soiled, screaming, squriming JBR in the bathroom- and slams her hard into the tub/faucets.
I don't know about this....I can't imagine this scenario and PR NOT calling 911. While certainly knocking her unconscious, PR isn't a doctor and can't know that her child will die from that head slam. There is no scalp laceration. Unless PR felt the hole. THAT might account for her not calling 911.
So- a staged sexual assault could be done to cover up douching that led to her death indirectly (by provoking PR into such a rage that she fractured her daughter's skull), rather than vaginal stab done to cover up sexual assault.
Not sure about these theories. I have to see what you guys have to say about it.

...I don't know...I think it also could have been done to attempt to cover past abuse...and I also think they had an ill-fated plan to get her out of the house..so that could have been done to appear a pedo did it...or for both reasons.I tend to go with both.
and then,if there was no molestation going on..then why stage an assault,why think about getting her out of the house as if a pedo did it...and why bother to put brand new too big underwear on her??

 

[JMO8778]

JMO, ignore the part where I initially said to apply pressure on the egg:

"If you have the eggs to waste in an experiment, try hitting one with a "weapon" of proportional size, then try holding it and hitting against a countertop while also applying pressure."

Just try striking it against the countertop in the normal way you would crack an egg - I lost my train of thought when writing that the first time ... toot toot, just call me Tweetsie.

A nail with a head also makes a good "weapon" to use for the first test (high-velocity/low-pressure). The second test, holding the egg and cracking it on the counter, would be low-velocity/high-pressure. Throwing it against the wall would be high-velocity/high pressure but I don't recommend doing that.

Ok,I see what you're saying...that a low impact strike likely wouldn't break the skin,as opposed to a high impact one that more likely would have.

this is all I could find at the moment,I don't necessarily agree,I'm sure you would know more.I copied and pasted to my outgoing mail,so I don't know the web page address,but here it is:



Unlikelihood of "Accidental" Head Blow


Expert Opinion. A review of literature in the Archives of Disease in Childhood observed:"Fractures are more likely to be caused by high force trauma, including abuse, if depressed, wider than 3 mm, multiple, stellate, crossing asuture line or of the base of the skull." 3 mm is just over 0.1 inches.JBR's fracture crossed multiple suture lines and was 1/2 inch wide in the portion of skulled "punched out" by the force of the blow.
Force of Blow. Internet poster Dave has done calculations showing the force required to punch out the piece of skull of the same size as the piece found punched out in the autopsy. His calculations suggest the force would have been considerable, ruling out an accidental fall.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

Sure JonBenet sneezed as a last act of defiance just as Patsy placed the clean pair of size-12's upon her.

Thankfully, you've apparently not been around any children who've had bloody noses nor, apparently, have you seen what it looks like when someone shakes a child who has tinged mucous coming from one or more facial orifices.

"There are no defects noted in the shirt but the upper anterior right sleeve contains a dried brown-tan stain measuring 2.5 x 1.5 inches, consistent with mucous from the nose or mouth....The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous material." [autopsy, Jonbenet Ramsey, external exam section and evidence of evidence of injury section]
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