Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #4

[MsBetsy]

The parent's response during the interview as to why the missing boys did not go to Grandma's house with their siblings was that they were too young at ages 3 & 4.

Yes, where were these boys when the car was packed and loaded on Dec 19 with only 4 of 6 children? Do we know what time of day the family left the house on 12/19 and what time the parents returned home alone? Was this a preplanned family outing or a last minute exercise?

I don't believe Orson & Orrin were left at home alone. These parents are not newbies with the foster system and I don't think they'd take that kind of risk. I believe the boys were with somebody else when the family left the house and they never returned home again. It seems to me that mom and dad spent two days trying to come up with a plan for how to report the boys missing and the best they came up with after two days is that they wandered off through the backyard gate!

I wish we knew what time of day the siblings last saw their little brothers.

Apparently they left the house at around 11:30 on the 19th and came back around 3:45. It's hard to tell from the surveillance footage whether the boys came back with them or not. It's very blurry and there are some gaps in the video. Imo

 

[Ontario Mom]

Apparently they left the house at around 11:30 on the 19th and came back around 3:45. It's hard to tell from the surveillance footage whether the boys came back with them or not. It's very blurry and there are some gaps in the video. Imo

I can't really make out anything in that video.
Way too out of focus and jumpy.
I sure wish we knew where the other 4 siblings last saw the boys on the 19th.
In the house, van, store, at grandma's house?

 

[Seattle1]

In my opinion this should be enough right here to hold them .
Moo

LE's number one objective is to first recover the children -- dead or alive, and I believe the couple more valuable to LE outside of jail where they can be surveilled.

While I think they may have sufficient evidence that the parents lied to LE during an investigation about the children leaving the backyard on 12/21, that's not proof of murder. From the Police Chief's lengthy interview with ABC 23 on Jan 22, it doesn't appear to me that there's any evidence of a crime against the children in the house or the van.

It's also good to know that several agencies are part of this investigation including the DA's office and the FBI and I don't fear anybody will get away with disappearing these boys. The DA's office only gets one bite at the apple and they are not going to act prematurely.

MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

Wonder if grandma had O & O and they did a switcheroo on the 19th? The other children remain in Bakersfield and O & O never return to CC? In that case both the other children and grandma saw them on the 19th.......in passing.
MOO.

I wonder if there are surveillance cameras that show grandma's house. If the parents took the boys shopping there should be video of them somewhere. Yet police haven't been able to identify them in any surveillance footage, as far as we know. Imo

 

[Rachelj1]

LE's number one objective is to first recover the children -- dead or alive, and I believe the couple more valuable to LE outside of jail where they can be surveilled.

While I think they may have sufficient evidence that the parents lied to LE during an investigation about the children leaving the backyard on 12/21, that's not proof of murder. From the Police Chief's lengthy interview with ABC 23 on Jan 22, it doesn't appear to me that there's any evidence of a crime against the children in the house or the van.

It's also good to know that several agencies are part of this investigation including the DA's office and the FBI and I don't fear anybody will get away with disappearing these boys. The DA's office only gets one bite at the apple and they are not going to act prematurely.

MOO

You are right! I just feel that them being together , is not going to do any good. I feel like if they could JW away from TW they could get her to crack.
moo

 

[Rachelj1]

Wonder if grandma had O & O and they did a switcheroo on the 19th? The other children remain in Bakersfield and O & O never return to CC? In that case both the other children and grandma saw them on the 19th.......in passing.
MOO.

Thats kind of where my thought process was!!!

MOO

 

[Bbybluz]

Is there an Analyst or DNA specialist in here?

I have been wondering since Chief Walker mentioned the “statistical data” in his last report (might be 2 reports ago) what this meant? So I have done some reading on it.

My question is... Is it possible to take let’s say “hair or skin flakes” off of clothing/bedding/furniture and determine a timeframe of when it fell off? From this same sample with DNA can you also determine what boy it belonged to as well?

If that was possible couldn’t LE determine if Orrin & Orson last wore those clothes or was in contact with the beds/furniture? A timeline between Bakersfield & Cal City.

Thank you in advance & all the above is my own curiosity.

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Court Statistics Project (CSP)

 

[NCHydrangea]

You are right! I just feel that them being together , is not going to do any good. I feel like if they could JW away from TW they could get her to crack.
moo

Hypothetically, if I were the person asking the questions, I would put the pressure on him. I think he would be the first one to crack.

JMO
MOO

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Is there an Analyst or DNA specialist in here?

I have been wondering since Chief Walker mentioned the “statistical data” in his last report (might be 2 reports ago) what this meant? So I have done some reading on it.

My question is... Is it possible to take let’s say “hair or skin flakes” off of clothing/bedding/furniture and determine a timeframe of when it fell off? From this same sample with DNA can you also determine what boy it belonged to as well?

If that was possible couldn’t LE determine if Orrin & Orson last wore those clothes or was in contact with the beds/furniture? A timeline between Bakersfield & Cal City.

Thank you in advance & all the above is my own curiosity.

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Court Statistics Project (CSP)

Great ideas and thinking outside the box. I jumped from your link to link to link. I find this interesting starting on page three on second link. What if LE is waiting to consider most appropriate charges - Civil charges example; neglect Criminal misdemeanor; other charges such as property fraud (I’ve seen this term around and didn’t know what it meant for Kern County to have such a high incidence of this type of crime. It includes welfare fraud, filling out assistance forms fraudulently, etc.
Court Statistics | Court Statistics Project

http://www.courtstatistics.org/__data/assets/pdf_file/0032/37976/FAQ-for-web.pdf

 

[Rachelj1]

Hypothetically, if I were the person asking the questions, I would put the pressure on him. I think he would be the first one to crack.

JMO
MOO

Really ? You may be right ! I do think it’s her that would only because I think he is controlling .

moo

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Hypothetically, if I were the person asking the questions, I would put the pressure on him. I think he would be the first one to crack.

JMO
MOO

I agree. She seems to be the guiding influence when they are speaking. He is the one who answered the door to the bio mom. He tried to speak with her and be sympathetic. AP mom with her body language such as the nodding in agreement (almost like a parent or a teacher would give positive reinforcement). She seems the dominant in their relationship. I will guess she also has more emotional support from extended family. She didn’t seem nervous to me. I saw AP dad trying like hell to hold himself still. He was very rigid like he was trying to squeeze himself closed. She wasn’t.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

Really ? You may be right ! I do think it’s her that would only because I think he is controlling .

moo

Crack as in lose his cool? Did anyone notice his reaction to the Aunt calling him out, about leaving the gate open? He did not like at all. MOO Imagine him being under more intense pressure, questioning. MOO

 

[Seattle1]

I don't think there's any reason to believe that the parents have not been interviewed separately by LE. Seems to me that's police work 101 for any investigation (i.e., separate the witnesses).

Police Chief confirmed the couple has been cooperative. He also confirmed they may have person(s) of interest but no suspects in this case and I don't expect they will "interrogate" anybody other than a suspect.

MOO

 

[Dre]

Wow, that's some stuff to unpack!
from the "new" footage that I watched over and over, I definitely see 4 children only going into that van. then as the van returns later, JW leaves the van first and goes to the house, maybe to open the door and back to the van, possibly to the back, while TW leaves the drivers side and gets the mail across the street and they go into the house.
I am not sure that Grandma saw them on the 19th, her sighting in Bakersfield very well could still have been before the move..

The children saying they saw them last on the 19th is huge.
I can't make sense of it, It obviously wasn't in the van or shopping trip, so where exactly did they see them? Couldn't the parents have put the fear of god in them to say that? "all of our lives are over unless you tell people you saw them Saturday, you'll go to jail too if you don't!"

It's not the most far fetched to have left them alone in the house for 4 hours (terrible, but so is this case) what if they had come home to hurt or deceased children? Was there any footage of the van leaving between Saturday and Monday?

it just makes no sense that the kids and grandma all saw them that day, with Orrin and Orson not getting into that van.
UGH messier than ever! MOO.

 

[fcavanaugh]

Still catching up on the thread and haven’t read all the posts yet, but below are some of my thoughts.

The parents claim they left the home on Dec. 19th with all 6 children to go Christmas shopping. Neighbor’s video surveillance shows an adult holding the door open and 4 kids entering the van. If O & O did get into the van on the 19th without neighbor’s video surveillance picking it up, if the parent’s story is true, there should be video surveillance from the stores the parent’s shopped at showing whether all 6 kids were with them shopping. If they dropped the other 4 kids off at Grandma’s before they did their shopping, then store video surveillance should show the parents shopping with O & O (if they in fact did get in the van earlier), as reportedly they weren’t left at the Grandma’s with the other 4 children for the “vacation”. However, neighbor’s video surveillance shows only TW & JW returning home.

IMO, 3 & 4 year olds need assistance getting into and out of vehicles. While video is grainy, it’s almost hard to believe O & O weren’t picked up on neighbors video surveillance either getting into or out of the van with one or both parents assistance. Wouldn’t O & O still be in car seats? My 3 and 5 year old Grandsons are still in car seats. Either way, at some point, I’d expect neighbor’s video surveillance would’ve shown the parent’s helping O & O into their car seats before they left, and removing them from their car seats when they’ve arrived back home later on the 19th. May not be able to tell exactly, but it should have shown at some point either one or both of the parent’s opening up back doors to help the boys into and out of their car seats, or if not still in car seats, helping them to buckle in, and unbuckling them from back seat upon arriving home.

The other 4 children say they last saw O & O on Dec. 19th, so did Grandma confirm O & O were with them when parents dropped the other 4 kids off on the 19th? Is there video surveillance outside Grandma’s home? There are many moving parts, but based on what’s been released, to me, there seems to be a large discrepancy in that the parents say they left the home on the 19th with 6 kids in tow, but video surveillance only picking up 4 kids getting into the van, and then showing TW & JW returning home alone.

I have to believe LE is all over this. I’m sure they’ve been reviewing and re-reviewing all CCTV to see if the parent’s and Grandma’s stories completely checks out. We know LE asked TW & JW to take a LDT, perhaps they also asked Grandma to take one?

It would be helpful to know where the other 4 children said last saw O & O on the 19th.

IMHO

 

[NCHydrangea]

I agree. She seems to be the guiding influence when they are speaking. He is the one who answered the door to the bio mom. He tried to speak with her and be sympathetic. AP mom with her body language such as the nodding in agreement (almost like a parent or a teacher would give positive reinforcement). She seems the dominant in their relationship. I will guess she also has more emotional support from extended family. She didn’t seem nervous to me. I saw AP dad trying like hell to hold himself still. He was very rigid like he was trying to squeeze himself closed. She wasn’t.

Yep. That was my first “read” on him. If anything bad happened to the boys, he may be stuck taking all of the blame, if he’s not careful. JMO, but I don’t think he came up with the scenario that “played out”.
JMO
MOO

 

[Bbybluz]

This is the biggest take away for me:

Security camera footage from two days before Orrin and Orson West went missing | KBAK (bakersfieldnow.com)
Jon Walker, Police Chief for the California City Department, says the boys' adoptive parents claim they left their California City house on Dec. 19 with their six children, to go do Christmas shopping in Bakersfield.

Security camera footage from a neighbor shows an adult holding the door open while four children go into the van. Then later that day two adults, which appear to be Trazell and Jacqueline West, come back to the house without any kids.

Chief Walker says the parents claim they dropped off four of their children, not including Orrin and Orson, at a family member's home that day. Walker says Dec. 19 was the last day the other four children say they saw Orrin and Orson.

[...]

Perhaps O & O were already at a relatives house in Bakersfield on the 19th? Load up the other 4 boys & drive to Bakersfield, pick up the 2 youngest ones & drop off the 4 older ones?

On the way home the 2 youngest “go missing” or something happens to them? AP return home alone?

MOO & possible theory

 

[Dre]

so interesting how perception is so different!
from that interview, I personally 100% believe he is the dominant and controlling alpha of the family. (honestly watching him felt really triggering of some past abuse I endured)

I think he knows this too, and had to intentionally make space for her in that interview. He nudged her to be the one to begin to speak, and consistently "took over" when he felt he needed to clarify for her. her nodding to me was in support of her husband, and she looked to him for approval.
he seemed strained to be patient with her when she was speaking. moo!

 

[Dre]

Perhaps O & O were already at a relatives house in Bakersfield on the 19th? Load up the other 4 boys & drive to Bakersfield, pick up the 2 youngest ones & drop off the 4 older ones?

On the way home the 2 youngest “go missing” or something happens to them? AP return home alone?

MOO & possible theory

I had thought of this too, but wouldn't it have been just as easy to say that? what would be the point of lying about 6 boys getting in the van in that case? whichever relative the boys were with would immediately and unknowingly ruin their story. moo

 

[MsBetsy]

Is there an Analyst or DNA specialist in here?

I have been wondering since Chief Walker mentioned the “statistical data” in his last report (might be 2 reports ago) what this meant? So I have done some reading on it.

My question is... Is it possible to take let’s say “hair or skin flakes” off of clothing/bedding/furniture and determine a timeframe of when it fell off? From this same sample with DNA can you also determine what boy it belonged to as well?

If that was possible couldn’t LE determine if Orrin & Orson last wore those clothes or was in contact with the beds/furniture? A timeline between Bakersfield & Cal City.

Thank you in advance & all the above is my own curiosity.

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Court Statistics Project (CSP)

I don't know if it's possible to determine when someone's DNA was left behind but I do think they can differentiate between whose DNA is contained in whatever samples are collected. There is probably a mixture of everyone's DNA throughout the house. There may be fingerprints as well.

If LE was able to collect a sample of the boys DNA from a toothbrush or something only they used it would be easier to compare.

Maybe Forensic Toxicologist can answer some of these questions, although I haven't seen her here in a few weeks.