Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #4

[imstilla.grandma]

Crack as in lose his cool? Did anyone notice his reaction to the Aunt calling him out, about leaving the gate open? He did not like at all. MOO Imagine him being under more intense pressure, questioning. MOO

His stance was already super defensive. Not that I blame him too much for that with the extended family screaming at him the entire time. Still, we’ve seen false confessions come from intense questioning so it’s not a stretch to believe a guilty person will also crack.

 

[Bbybluz]

Great posts and takeaways all! Will add my questions to yours...

• Has LE found any evidence that O and O left the house alive on the 19th?
• Where exactly did the siblings last see the boys on the 19th?
• When and where exactly did grandma last see the boys?
• For both: what was the boys’ condition?
• What is the date of the most recent photo of the boys discovered during the investigation? Most recent surveillance footage of the boys? What was boys’ condition?
• If LE haven’t discovered recent photos, what was parents, grandparents explanation?
• If the siblings last saw the boys alive the 19th, why aren’t there any recent photos? Long term abuse and neglect apparent (Wounds, bruises, gaunt, skeletal)?
• When and where exactly was the last confirmed sighting by non family member? And what was the boys’ condition?
• Was there any history of CPS reports or concerns with the family prior to the missing persons report being filed?
• Have LE been able to confirm sightings and footage of the family Christmas shopping at store/shopping center/ parking lot ? If so, how many kids spotted?
• Were there any cadaver or sar dog hits in the vehicle?
• Is there any evidence of people removing items that could have contained O and O from the home (garbage bags, bin)? Especially between the 19th and 21st?
  
• Did the siblings recount any history of how O and O might be punished or in what condition they may be left home alone?

If I may add 2 of my own?
**How many beds are in the CC home? Did the brothers say what the sleeping arrangements were?

**How many toothbrushes were in the CC home?

 

[Rachelj1]

so interesting how perception is so different!
from that interview, I personally 100% believe he is the dominant and controlling alpha of the family. honestly watching him felt really triggering of some past abuse I endured.

I think he knows it too, and had to intentionally make space for her in that interview. He nudged her to be the one to begin to speak, and consistently "took over" when he felt he needed to clarify for her. her nodding to me was in support of her husband, and she looked to him for approval.
he seemed strained to be patient with her when she was speaking. moo!

This is exactly how i saw it too .

 

[Seattle1]

I had thought of this too, but wouldn't it have been just as easy to say that? what would be the point of lying about 6 boys getting in the van in that case? whichever relative the boys were with would immediately and unknowingly ruin their story. moo

I think it's possible the missing children could have been loaded in the van before the later, older children and parents got in and drove away. We know that home surveillance cameras are imperfect and just because it wasn't captured on a neighbor's video does not mean it did not happen. I don't recall the parents saying the missing boys returned home with them-- only that they left with the six children on 12/19.

More specifically, I'm recalling the Kelsey Berreth case where the neighbor's camera did not detect PF taking KB's body out of the condo to his truck but he obviously did so.

MOO

 

[Knox]

Me too; if TW & JW are responsible for this I feel like all possibilities are still on the table from leaving them unattended and them wandering off (but why unfound?), to accidental death, to selling them (sceptical of this one), to murder, and so on. Hard to rule anything out.

Just like in the Vallow/Daybell case - if the boys are alive somewhere and can be produced (no matter the consequences). Wouldn't the West's have done this by now?

The timeline in noticing them missing and calling 911, would have produced the boys within hours IMO. They aren't little ninja's capable of pulling a disappearing act.

Accidental death - this is hard for me to fathom for both of them at one time. So I'm left with one other possibility which explains the need for an elaborate cover-up.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

If I may add 2 of my own?
**How many beds are in the CC home? Did the brothers say what the sleeping arrangements were?

**How many toothbrushes were in the CC home?

Were any traces of locks detected on the outside of bedroom doors?

Did they have their dog in their Bakersfield apartment?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

I don't know if it's possible to determine when someone's DNA was left behind but I do think they can differentiate between whose DNA is contained in whatever samples are collected. There is probably a mixture of everyone's DNA throughout the house. There may be fingerprints as well.

If LE was able to collect a sample of the boys DNA from a toothbrush or something only they used it would be easier to compare.

Maybe Forensic Toxicologist can answer some of these questions, although I haven't seen her here in a few weeks.

It appears bio mom possibly hadn’t had custody for quite some time. If she had items from her baby boys, could they still hold dna?

 

[Girl73]

I’m feeling like either:

1. kids were coached to say the 19th (perhaps LE would suspect this)
2. Kids actually did see them last on the 19th, and if that’s the case, I think something terrible happened that day, APs ushered the 4 of them out “shopping” and grandmas, and then returned home to deal with what they needed to deal with.

I can’t fathom why one of the APs wouldn’t have stayed home, so option 3 would be that they were intentionally left home alone, met their demise, and APs had to cover it up.

I originally thought o and o never lived in Cal city, but we don’t have any knowledge of what the police found in the home (toothbrushes etc)

moo

 

[MsBetsy]

Really ? You may be right ! I do think it’s her that would only because I think he is controlling .

moo

I agree, Rachel. I thought he came across as being authoritative and more in control. It felt like he took the lead and she added things to support the narrative. She seemed more timid and nervous to me.

 

[Knox]

Wonder if grandma had O & O and they did a switcheroo on the 19th? The other children remain in Bakersfield and O & O never return to CC? In that case both the other children and grandma saw them on the 19th.......in passing.
MOO.

You bring up an interesting possibility. Since we know from TW that there was contact with Grandma, and we assume that was on 12/19. Could that party be lying to help cover-up whatever happened to Orrin & Orson? We know this party also has foster kids and thus has reason to protect her own interests. All hypothetical thoughts, but it could make sense in light of what Chief Walker revealed about last seen and by who.

 

[Dre]

Just like in the Vallow/Daybell case - if the boys are alive somewhere and can be produced (no matter the consequences). Wouldn't the West's have done this by now?

one hundred percent.
anything to wiggle out of possible looming homicide charges, they would be pulling out all the stops to save their behinds at this point!!! moo

 

[Seattle1]

I’m feeling like either:

1. kids were coached to say the 19th (perhaps LE would suspect this)
2. Kids actually did see them last on the 19th, and if that’s the case, I think something terrible happened that day, APs ushered the 4 of them out “shopping” and grandmas, and then returned home to deal with what they needed to deal with.

I can’t fathom why one of the APs wouldn’t have stayed home, so option 3 would be that they were intentionally left home alone, met their demise, and APs had to cover it up.

I originally thought o and o never lived in Cal city, but we don’t have any knowledge of what the police found in the home (toothbrushes etc)

moo

^^bbm
I believe the police are confident that the children were present inside the California City residence at some time. However, according to the Police Chief, they are not confident that the children wandered from the backyard outside the fence and disappeared.

 

[Knox]

It appears bio mom possibly hadn’t had custody for quite some time. If she had items from her baby boys, could they still hold dna?

All they need to do to get DNA is draw blood from Mom & Dad. Assuming the paternity is 100% established.

 

[TTF14]

So LE released the video yesterday.....why? Why wait so long? When will they release more video? Are they trying to get someone to come forward (i.e. grandma) when they see that AP's version makes no sense with this video evidence? Helping someone put two and two together to do the right thing?

 

[MsBetsy]

If I may add 2 of my own?
**How many beds are in the CC home? Did the brothers say what the sleeping arrangements were?

**How many toothbrushes were in the CC home?

Another thought about the DNA testing... I think California is one of the states that saves infant blood samples after birth. So it might be easy to test any DNA found in the house and compare it to the boys. I would think LE would have the results back by now. They should be able determine whether or not they were living there. Imo

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Driving time: 1 hour 9 minutes
Kids dropped off somewhere along this path?
Where are the shopping outlets in Bakersfield?

Google Maps

 

[Seattle1]

All they need to do to get DNA is draw blood from Mom & Dad. Assuming the paternity is 100% established.

Given that brothers Orrin & Orson were already in the foster care system prior to being adopted by the West couple, I would think the children's DNA is already on file with CPS and/or available to the state/federal investigators. Maybe, maybe not? MOO

ETA: add link

DNA of every baby born in California is stored. Who has access to it?

California, however, is one of a handful of states that stores the remaining blood spots for research indefinitely in a state-run biobank.

Even though the parents pay for the lifesaving test itself, the child's leftover blood spots become property of the state and may be sold to outside researchers without the parent's knowledge or consent.

"I just didn't realize there was a repository of every baby born in the state. It's like fingerprints," new mom Soniya Sapre responded.

 

[Rachelj1]

I agree, Rachel. I thought he came across as being authoritative and more in control. It felt like he took the lead and she added things to support the narrative. She seemed more timid and nervous to me.

Yes! She seemed nervous to me too. I really think he may have 2 sides to him!
Moo

 

[Seattle1]

So LE released the video yesterday.....why? Why wait so long? When will they release more video? Are they trying to get someone to come forward (i.e. grandma) when they see that AP's version makes no sense with this video evidence? Helping someone put two and two together to do the right thing?

Seems to me that LE hopes the video will put some pressure on somebody that they think has information or has provided them false information. This investigation has some very experienced collective minds at work here and I trust them completely.

MOO

 

[PommyMommy]

Great posts and takeaways all! Will add my questions to yours...

• Has LE found any evidence that O and O left the house alive on the 19th?
• Where exactly did the siblings last see the boys on the 19th?
• When and where exactly did grandma last see the boys?
• For both: what was the boys’ condition?
• What is the date of the most recent photo of the boys discovered during the investigation? Most recent surveillance footage of the boys? What was boys’ condition?
• If LE haven’t discovered recent photos, what was parents, grandparents explanation?
• If the siblings last saw the boys alive the 19th, why aren’t there any recent photos? Long term abuse and neglect apparent (Wounds, bruises, gaunt, skeletal)?
• When and where exactly was the last confirmed sighting by non family member? And what was the boys’ condition?
• Was there any history of CPS reports or concerns with the family prior to the missing persons report being filed?
• Have LE been able to confirm sightings and footage of the family Christmas shopping at store/shopping center/ parking lot ? If so, how many kids spotted?
• Were there any cadaver or sar dog hits in the vehicle?
• Is there any evidence of people removing items that could have contained O and O from the home (garbage bags, bin)? Especially between the 19th and 21st?
  
• Did the siblings recount any history of how O and O might be punished or in what condition they may be left home alone?

Great list, Moe. I have a couple questions to add as well.

• Why did the parents lie about all six children leaving the house with them on the 19th to go Christmas shopping?
• Where did the parents tell grandma O&O were when they dropped off the other four children?
• Is the grandmother being truthful about the last time she saw O&O?
• What was the family's plan for Christmas? ie: Were the other 4 children supposed to come back home for the holiday? Was the family going to gather in Bakersfield? How long had this "vacation" been planned?