Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #23

[mrjitty]

7 months and 23 threads later, it doesn't feel like we are very far beyond the original breaking news from HCW

We know a bit about where CB lived, and who his associates were, and his criminal past.

But I feel we are just nowhere on the case against him, until HCW shows his hand.

Is that ever going to happen?

 

[Ausgrlz]

There is info about the number being a Portuguese one on thread 9, page 12. Although it says CB called rather than answering.

And an admittedly inconclusive bit at thread 6, page 22.

 

[Lilly b]

There is info about the number being a Portuguese one on thread 9, page 12. Although it says CB called rather than answering.

And an admittedly inconclusive bit at thread 6, page 22.

If you look to the first speach/press release on CB from hcw, he explains it on that, you will find multiple outlets have it, it goes through the calls numbers and cars etc

 

[Dave55]

Wolters said nothing would happen before the new year but he wouldnt let it drag on forever. I would hope to see something this month.

 

[mrjitty]

Wolters said nothing would happen before the new year but he wouldnt let it drag on forever. I would hope to see something this month.

You'd imagine something Q1

I think if we start getting towards May 3rd then the media pressure won't be fun for him but not the end of the world.

 

[Anxala]

For someone who understands German law. Could CB sue Wolters for defamation or is he covered by absolute privilege. I was surprised that on the Mark S podcast Wolters actually at one point referred to his suspect as Mr Breukner

I wonder about that too.

It has always from the off seemed so wrong to me that HCW could so casually and publicly name his suspect and accuse him of all sorts of really serious wrong-doing, while at the same time admitting at pretty much every subsequent turn that he had/has no real evidence or grounds for doing so.

 

[SuperdadV8]

I wonder about that too. It has always from the off seemed so wrong to me that HCW has so casually named his suspect while at the same time admitting he has no real evidence or grounds for doing so.

If HCW had no grounds, he wouldn't do.

If he wouldn't have real evidence, he wouldn't do.

Both, prosecuters and solicitors are unusually quiet! This is a game of strategy. Both parties had been beating around the bush before, until a few weeks ago. They both are waiting on something, to make progress. IMO an investugation/trial in another case or about another suspect.

But thats just my assumption....

 

[oudzuid]

I am wondering why it is taking Police so long to bring action against CB?
It almost feels like they don't have sufficient evidence to charge him.
I hope that this is not just another distraction and that we end up no further forward.

 

[oudzuid]

I wonder about that too.

It has always from the off seemed so wrong to me that HCW could so casually and publicly name his suspect and accuse him of all sorts of really serious wrong-doing, while at the same time admitting at pretty much every subsequent turn that he had/has no real evidence or grounds for doing so.

@Anxala It is probably easier to accuse someone with a criminal record of something that they find difficult to defend or have the financial resources to defend themselves.

 

[Dave55]

If CBs lawyer was confident HCW doesn't have the evidence then I'm sure he'd find someone to take it on on a no win no fee basis. It would also force Wolters to reveal his evidence. Having said that I don't know if Wolters is protected from a demation claim by absolute privelige

 

[mrjitty]

If CBs lawyer was confident HCW doesn't have the evidence then I'm sure he'd find someone to take it on on a no win no fee basis. It would also force Wolters to reveal his evidence. Having said that I don't know if Wolters is protected from a demation claim by absolute privelige

CB can't force HCW to reveal his evidence.

HCW is not required to charge or question CB, and until he does, he doesn't have to reveal anything.

HCW cannot be charged with defamation as a prosecutor acting in the ordinary course of his duties. CB would need to show that the statements were not supported by any evidence, but as he cannot access the evidence, he cannot bring such an action

Hence the Kafka scenario of being accused, but having no recourse to the courts

 

[mrjitty]

I am wondering why it is taking Police so long to bring action against CB?

Because they have no case.

 

[oudzuid]

CB can't force HCW to reveal his evidence.

HCW is not required to charge or question CB, and until he does, he doesn't have to reveal anything.

HCW cannot be charged with defamation as a prosecutor acting in the ordinary course of his duties. CB would need to show that the statements were not supported by any evidence, but as he cannot access the evidence, he cannot bring such an action

Hence the Kafka scenario of being accused, but having no recourse to the courts

It is rather strange that in this case history that there have been accusations and there has been recourse from others.
But then there is no such thing as a fair world.

 

[SuperdadV8]

"What steps do the police usually take before a public search?

The public prosecutor and the police are obliged to examine and, if necessary, use milder means (measures that interfere less with the rights of those affected) to identify or localize unknown suspects or witnesses before initiating the public search. Since it strongly interferes with the personal rights of the wanted person, it is rarely the first step. First measures are, for example, the evaluation of existing traces, interviews with witnesses, police investigations or searches in the police information systems. A public manhunt, which is limited to a specific group of people, also precedes a general public manhunt, provided that it is promising in the specific case constellation. Only when these measures remain unsuccessful or do not promise any success in the foreseeable future, the police turn to the general public. The police measures are based on the applicable legal framework and are subject to the principle of proportionality.

In principle, the court is responsible for ordering the public search. Only in the case of imminent danger can the public prosecutor or its investigators initiate the public search immediately.

BKA - Öffentlichkeitsfahndung

This discussion leads to nothing, as long as it is based on the assumtion of the prosecutors behavior. If they had nothing in their hands, not a single german court/judge would permit the public inquiry. I wrote about that before. The step that the BKA (not the Braunschweig prosecuters!) did, demand reservation of a judge.

So we could likely discuss, if a court will give permission to an investigative operation that interferes so strongly with the rights of CB, without prosecutors who put their very promising cards on it's table before.

The answer is no, because german courts are pretty reluctant in that matter. The small amount of public inquiries in relation to prelimimary investigations in germany proves this pretty easy.

So as a result: If the prosecuters (BKA + HCW) had nothing tangible against CB, no judge would have admitted the BKA appeal. And that is no assumption but a legal fact!

Silence on the evidence doesn't mean nonenxistence of evidence...

 

[peanutJelly]

7 months and 23 threads later, it doesn't feel like we are very far beyond the original breaking news from HCW

We know a bit about where CB lived, and who his associates were, and his criminal past.

But I feel we are just nowhere on the case against him, until HCW shows his hand.

Is that ever going to happen?

I still think we are close in our theories about links to MN.

 

[snowpea666]

I still think we are close in our theories about links to MN.

Yes, I think you could be right, both sides of the camp seem to be very very quiet makes you wonder if they are just waiting on something ??

 

[Anxala]

So as a result: If the prosecuters (BKA + HCW) had nothing tangible against CB, no judge would have admitted the BKA appeal. And that is no assumption but a legal fact!

I've always taken that as a given, that there have had to be concrete 'official' grounds for this investigation to be given the go ahead and subsequently made public.

It still doesn't stop me from thinking how really badly and unprofessionally it's been managed. Bizarrely even.

Regardless of what the BKA/HCW have on CB, there's no justification for the manner in which they've embraced what is, at base, trial by tabloid.

 

[SuperdadV8]

I've always taken that as a given, that there have had to be concrete 'official' grounds for this investigation to be given the go ahead and subsequently made public.

It still doesn't stop me from thinking how really badly and unprofessionally it's been managed. Bizarrely even.

Regardless of what the BKA/HCW have on CB, there's no justification for the manner in which they've embraced what is, at base, trial by tabloid.

But that ain't new, right? Tabloids making a lot out of some of these cases, especially the MM one? Are the prosecuters responsible for that in general? I don't think so.

I would assume, while some of us are complaining about making a suspect public without releasing the files of an ongoing investigation, the prosecuters are working. Some delay due to covid wouldn't surprise me.

Let's be honest. It's just an issue of impatience. That's all. By the way, i would like to know some things either. But unfortuneatly i do not work for the prosecuters.

 

[Dave55]

Delay due to Covid could well be right. Wolters said he wanted officers to go to Portugal.... And Portugal is on the very dangerous list

 

[SuperdadV8]

Delay due to Covid could well be right. Wolters said he wanted officers to go to Portugal.... And Portugal is on the very dangerous list

They need the body, as horrible as it may seem. IMO there aren't so many other reasons....