VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[Joolz1975]

I dont think he pre planned in advance to rape and murder Libby but we know he planned to offend in some way that night because he has said so himself.

I do think when he saw Libby he saw an opportunity to take things a step further than he had before (as far as we know).

 

[NottReds50]

I think the reason he didn't make advances on her in the Endsleigh Centre is obvious..its on a main road and if she started to scream and protest there would be people passing

I do not think he planned to take her or "someone" that night to the park ..it was just the nearest obvious choice once he planned to get her in the car ...the nearest open space in an area he frequented for voyeurism and his other "pass times"

With the greatest respect, by very definition, that is a plan.

I do think when he saw Libby he saw an opportunity to take things a step further than he had before (as far as we know).

I agree, there was a "vague" plan of IF I see someone then....

 

[mrjitty]

I dont think he pre planned in advance to rape and murder Libby but we know he planned to offend in some way that night because he has said so himself.

I do think when he saw Libby he saw an opportunity to take things a step further than he had before (as far as we know).

That's why his previous offending was admissible as evidence IMO

It explains why he was lurking in the streets in the first place - something he was then forced to admit in his evidence.

 

[NorthernSoul]

Did either prosecution or defence actually ask SA if he thought the man he saw could have been PR?

Is it strange that the police didn't ask SA to identify PR in an identity parade? Surely this would have been damning evidence? Or did SA say he didn't see the person clearly enough to identify them?

 

[elliefant]

*commences @jamjim stalking*

 

[C.greek]

Due to the multiple counts of his crimes at his previous trial , his collection of trophies from various crimes in his boot , the amount of times he went out at night day after day ...there is no doubt those crimes were planned ..how could they not be

You cannot compare planning on a previous trial and automatically relate it to planning on something he has never done before a different crime at a different trial

I think the reason he didn't make advances on her in the Endsleigh Centre is obvious..its on a main road and if she started to scream and protest there would be people passing

I do not think he planned to take her or "someone" that night to the park ..it was just the nearest obvious choice once he planned to get her in the car ...the nearest open space in an area he frequented for voyeurism and his other "pass times"

I think the only thing he planned that night was his usual stuff until he saw libby

We saw him stalking her though minutes before. That entails a degree of premeditation, doesn't it ? And the minutes he waited in the car. Planning doesn't need to be days before. Jmo

 

[JosieJo]

So you're saying he didn't attack her in Endsleigh because he was worried about consequences? Isn't that pre meditation? I might get caught? Doesn't that give opportunities to stop?

If he was planning to just have sex why would he get caught?

If you look at suggested ways of drawing inferences listed earlier from the research article posted by #bos doesn't it mention looking at how things happen in the real world as a clue to what's most likely scenario?

If somebody has planned previous crimes why would they suddenly stop planning their next ones? Why would they only plan half of it?


Why would he go to the park earlier?

Of course not attacking her in Endsleigh is premeditation...but only from the point he saw her ...not long term planning...premeditation can be very short

I didn't say he was just planning to have sex I said he was playing to take advantage of her vulnerability...imo he was going to have sex with her whether she consented or not ...more short term premeditation from the point of seeing her

He was regularly around the area of the streets near the park for his usual "stuff" it does not automatically mean he was planning anything different

Here's a question...if someone was planning to rape and kill and use the river as a way of disposal....why on earth would they park on oak road where they would have to drag someone 450 metres across a snowy field ...when once in the car they could have driven to a secluded spot with direct access to the water ...raped in or at the car then use direct access to the water ....what sort of planning is that?
No imo he took her to Oak rd to rape her because it was a secluded spot which was planned at the point of seeing libby in her vulnerable condition

 

[JosieJo]

With the greatest respect, by very definition, that is a plan.



I agree, there was a "vague" plan of IF I see someone then....

I'm not saying it wasn't premeditation from the point of seeing libby for rape ....im saying he didn't set out that night to rape and kill

 

[JosieJo]

We saw him stalking her though minutes before. That entails a degree of premeditation, doesn't it ? And the minutes he waited in the car. Planning doesn't need to be days before. Jmo

I totally agree ...we were discussing longer term planning

 

[Sooty]

Looking at the early events of the evening from a human perspective, I think it’s in keeping with his character that he would have found himself conflicted when coming across LS.

He isn’t some loner who hasn’t been able to form relationships or any sort of normal life. He had a stable job, a family and a home. He had friends, did normal social activities day to day etc. He did have another side to his personality, as we know - but I think (I may be wrong, of course) that was a complete surprise to those who knew him. He was letting this ‘secret’ side of himself grow in confidence, that’s for sure.

He hadn’t (as far as we know) involved any direct contact in his previous perversions. This was something new. I think by offering to help her, he was taking time to assess whether or not this ‘new’ step in his perversions would work. Hence why it wasn’t an immediate thing in the Endsleigh Centre. It wasn’t a plan as such that he was aware he was making, but a development of confidence in the emerging chain of events.

 

[NottReds50]

I'm not saying it wasn't premeditation from the point of seeing libby for rape ....im saying he didn't set out that night to rape and kill

I never mentioned "kill", so please don't conflate the two on my behalf

 

[mrazda71]

Looking at the early events of the evening from a human perspective, I think it’s in keeping with his character that he would have found himself conflicted when coming across LS.

He isn’t some loner who hasn’t been able to form relationships or any sort of normal life. He had a stable job, a family and a home. He had friends, did normal social activities day to day etc. He did have another side to his personality, as we know - but I think (I may be wrong, of course) that was a complete surprise to those who knew him. He was letting this ‘secret’ side of himself grow in confidence, that’s for sure.

He hadn’t (as far as we know) involved any direct contact in his previous perversions. This was something new. I think by offering to help her, he was taking time to assess whether or not this ‘new’ step in his perversions would work. Hence why it wasn’t an immediate thing in the Endsleigh Centre. It wasn’t a plan as such that he was aware he was making, but a development of confidence in the emerging chain of events.

I think you give him too much credit ... IMO all he was doing is assessing 'can I do this AND get away with it' ...

 

[Joolz1975]

I think you give him too much credit ... IMO all he was doing is assessing 'can I do this AND get away with it' ...

I would agree with this. Once he saw LS he knew he had an opportunity to go as far as he wanted that night because she was too vulnerable to fight back.

I often wonder if he had broke into a house and found a lone female whether his offending would have escalated sooner.

To he honest I am not entirely sure he hadn't already escalated his offending anyway and am fully expecting some disclosures after the verdict about other crimes.

 

[mrjitty]

I would agree with this. Once he saw LS he knew he had an opportunity to go as far as he wanted that night because she was too vulnerable to fight back.

Yes.

I often wonder if he had broke into a house and found a lone female whether his offending would have escalated sooner.

Almost certainly IMO

To he honest I am not entirely sure he hadn't already escalated his offending anyway and am fully expecting some disclosures after the verdict about other crimes.

Exactly.

It's also clear he did a bunch of stuff that was never reported. e.g his neighbours knew he was a perv and never reported it until it until he was caught.

 

[C.greek]

He was regularly around the area of the streets near the park for his usual "stuff" it does not automatically mean he was planning anything different

Here's a question...if someone was planning to rape and kill and use the river as a way of disposal....why on earth would they park on oak road where they would have to drag someone 450 metres across a snowy field ...when once in the car they could have driven to a secluded spot with direct access to the water ...raped in or at the car then use direct access to the water ....what sort of planning is that?
No imo he took her to Oak rd to rape her because it was a secluded spot which was planned at the point of seeing libby in her vulnerable condition

Please excuse my ignorance of the topography of the area, but based on what locals have said and the maps I've seen, it doesn't appear like the streets around the park were the places he was frequenting, since these are family homes and he was obviously roaming the streets with student houses. So, if this is true, his 1st visit to the area could entail the planning for rape.

Why on earth he chose that spot, well as you say it is an area he knew well(visiting with his kid, flying the drone, visited it earlier on the same day as well) and it was secluded. I don't think he planned to murder her though. That is why he didn't think of the good questions you put forward imo. Murder could have been as a consequence of rape or while attempting to rape her. But I think the evidence points towards him planning the rape at that secluded spot. And it went wrong.

 

[JosieJo]

I never mentioned "kill", so please don't conflate the two on my behalf

My wording was relating to the initial conversation with another poster which you commented on ...not your words

 

[Newthoughts]

I would agree with this. Once he saw LS he knew he had an opportunity to go as far as he wanted that night because she was too vulnerable to fight back.

I often wonder if he had broke into a house and found a lone female whether his offending would have escalated sooner.

To he honest I am not entirely sure he hadn't already escalated his offending anyway and am fully expecting some disclosures after the verdict about other crimes.

Yes I agree.

 

[JosieJo]

Please excuse my ignorance of the topography of the area, but based on what locals have said and the maps I've seen, it doesn't appear like the streets around the park were the places he was frequenting, since these are family homes and he was obviously roaming the streets with student houses. So, if this is true, his 1st visit to the area could entail the planning for rape.

Why on earth he chose that spot, well as you say it is an area he knew well(visiting with his kid, flying the drone, visited it earlier on the same day as well) and it was secluded. I don't think he planned to murder her though. That is why he didn't think of the good questions you put forward imo. Murder could have been as a consequence of rape or while attempting to rape her. But I think the evidence points towards him planning the rape at that secluded spot. And it went wrong.

Previous offences had occurred in streets near oak road

 

[Joolz1975]

Previous offences had occurred in streets near oak road

And on the road Libby lived on which is very near Oak Road.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

That's why his previous offending was admissible as evidence IMO

It explains why he was lurking in the streets in the first place - something he was then forced to admit in his evidence.

Just reading posts and wondering if the jury would be given full details from his prev trial. Specifically the sentencing comments I guess. Hmmm.