Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

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I didn’t realize how secluded the bridge/trail itself was in relation to the town. There are a few videos done by Gray Hughes that seem to put things into perspective. Frankly, they’re chilling to see/hear. But I wanted to share for those with questions about the location and why the girls weren’t found sooner. Note: This is speculation and may not represent the exact movements of the girls (or BG) that day, but you’ll get a general sense of the area.

Here is the route to the trail.

Here is the path to and across the bridge.
 
I realize everyone loves the notion that the girls tried to flee across the creek. But let me try to demonstrate why it is unlikely. In sports and specifically American football there is something called the backdoor cover. That is when the underdog seizes advantage late and scores to finish inside the pointspread. It is an oft discussed scenario.

However, it is quite another matter when you are actually depending on it to happen. All perspective is lost. My friends and I used to take advantage of sucker tourists all the time in that situation, in man to man wagers. For example, let's say a 30 point favorite in college football got ahead by 35 in the middle of the 4th quarter. We'd hear the tourists chirping, "Here comes the backdoor cover. I guarantee it." This is when the big favorite has pulled all of its starters and is playing with reserves, while the heavy underdog is still using its top players.

It is incredible how often those sucker tourists would lose sight of big picture reality. We would wager on the remainder of the game. They would actually take the 30 point underdog at Even points for the remainder of the game, counting on that backdoor cover. I felt so sorry for them time and again, even as I was taking their money. That 30 point favorite has such manpower advantage that they were favored to score the first touchdown, favored to score the second touchdown, and so forth. They are still favored to score the eighth touchdown and the ninth touchdown.

Only warped perspective considers the huge underdog now the brief favorite, due to situational variance. And in a roundabout way that's how I'm trying to describe Delphi as the girls approached the creek. We know they lost big at the top of the bridge. Otherwise they wouldn't be down the hill and heading toward Deer Creek. We know they lost their lives atop the opposite bank within minutes. All of this makes perfect sense because once that bad guy pulled a weapon the girls became massive underdogs.

Yet somehow we want to pretend they suddenly seized advantage as they reached the creek. Meanwhile, nothing has logically changed. The killer hasn't dropped the weapon. He hasn't collapsed to the ground. He hasn't changed his mind. Only the fanciful notion of applying hero mode wants to make the girls the favorite for those next 15 or 20 seconds, or whatever.

It simply is not a good way to think. You are wagering on the big underdog, for no reason whatsoever. Kidding yourself due to flimsy subjectivity. And if law enforcement had sufficient training in probability they would fully understand this type of thing. They'd have experts describing it to them before they ever reached junior level, let alone anything beyond that. Jolt, jolt and more jolt. Flush out the group embrace of 2% scenarios.

I'll be blunt again. We need more women out there in these roles. Delphi suffers partially because males are occupying all the top spots. Law enforcement everywhere is hindered by gender distribution. I've done this long enough to recognize that females have greater grasp of probability than men, largely because they aren't as stubbornly dense and don't fall in love with preposterous scenarios merely because they align with every bias.

Interesting post. I'm no expert, but those just seem like stupid bets by desperate, degenerate gamblers. In college football with a 30 point spread, I can totally see the third stringers from the favored team being fresh, hungry, and many times more talented than the tired, beatdown starters of the underdog. I personally would expect a lot more backdoor covers in the nfl with more parity, and garbage-time "prevent" defenses. Anyway, I realize you just gave one general example, and it was a good example I thought. I guess you kind of lost me on how it correlates to this case. I'm not sure how you can handicap the odds of the girls trying to run in this way. What about the audio and video of BG? It seems like the probablility of that happening was extremely low......because BG was the "heavy favorite." But it happened.......

To me, like so many other things in this case, the odds of the girls trying to run is pretty much of a coin flip. I have trouble thinking that his plan was to cross the creek with the freezing cold water. I do believe that probability, odds/statistics is a valuable tool, and you might be onto something about LE in general needing to improve in this area.

I'm not trying to disagree with you. I think you just lost me somewhere. You obviously know what you are talking about. Maybe this is why I try to avoid gambling. It sure is fun, but I don't seem to be particularly good at it.
 
I don’t think anyone thinks the girls suddenly seized the advantage if they made a break for it across the creek. They would have simply been trying to save their lives. Even if the probability was only .000000031% that they would succeed, it was a chance. Any human being in a hopelessly dangerous situation would take those odds every time.
For some reason, I just don’t get your point I guess. So I’ll move on.
It really is all Darwin at some point. Those instincts just take over. It's sad the thing that made Abby and Libby so alive and vital, their youth, was what clouded those survival instincts and aided a killer. AJMO
 
If this guy has done this before he’s probably from another county or maybe even state. Maybe he thinks his fingerprints, if he was ever arrested before, might not be accessed by another county’s cops, or his MO or name known.

Someone posted about the Iowa girls abducted from a trail in 2012, the other day and I just read about it online. That was only 6 hours away from Delphi. And they never caught that guy, right? It was July 13, 2012. The bodies were not found til Dec. Sounds eerily similar. They might want to look for a guy who was “occupied” between late 2012 and Feb. 2017. If it’s the same guy, maybe he struck again and the bodies are buried somewhere. Or maybe he was “too busy” with something else during that time, like a serious illness, incarceration, new job, etc.

LE should also look at all viable Delphi suspects to see if any of them owned a white SUV in July 2012 similar to the one multiple witnesses spotted near trail the day and time the girls were abducted in Iowa.

Respectfully highlighted by me.

It never occurred to me, but perhaps, he was married between 2012 and 2017, or in a stable relationship? GRK's pattern.

And would have divorced/separated between Feb 14, 2016 and early 2017.
 
I don't think the odds makers would put odds that as a 17 year old 100 pound girl, being abducted with a blackjack shoved into my throat...in a speeding car that I would have punched my abductor in his face, breaking his nose and jimmying open the car door where he had removed the lock mechanism, and throwing myself into the street as the car rolled...thus being my own hero and saving my own life...

nope, odds would have been that, that girl would not have survived,

but I did...

that said we don't know if the girls made a run for it...it didn't change the outcome and
I don't understand the focus on this..or the actuarial aspect of police work..

wasn't Occams Razor more the map predictor of crime assessment?

mOO
minazoe, I'm glad you were so brave that day. I hate that something so horrifying happened to you. You've been blessed and that's something to rejoice in. God Bless <3
 

Why would he walk them 3/4 of a mile from bridge? Were the bodies found in the direction of where that car was parked at the old abandoned building? How close were bodies to the car? Maybe abduction attempt?

This expert points out that it is really weird no one has recognized this guy yet. It makes u wonder if it isn’t someone from outside of Delphi , unknown to locals, or maybe some guy in Delphi that no one knows. Is that possible? Even if he was homeless it seems someone would have seen him before. And if he is a resident and a family member is covering for him, wouldn’t at least other people in town be aware of him and how he looks like this BG? I bet the fact that they’ve put out 2 vastly different pix is really throwing people off and might even be narrowing their chances of someone reporting him. Maybe they thought “Joe” looks just like BG, then LE puts out Young Guy curly hair no goatee pic and they drop their suspicion. I think LE really needs to address that issue more clearly with the public if they want their help.

At this point it can literally look like any guy in America. I really don’t get how it can be some young guy with curly hair no hat and no goatee but also be an old guy with an old guy voice and a hat and goatee! It must be really confusing and frustrating to the locals.
 
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I came back to this case a few weeks ago, just before the anniversary, because I had a feeling that it would be solved soon. I'm terrified that it will never be solved after reading more about it again, though. How can they not have caught him yet?

I can't keep up with these threads so it's likely I missed this, but does anyone wonder if the date had significance? Right around Valentine's Day?
 
Respectfully highlighted by me.

It never occurred to me, but perhaps, he was married between 2012 and 2017, or in a stable relationship? GRK's pattern.

And would have divorced/separated between Feb 14, 2016 and early 2017.

I read something earlier tonight on a profile of the killer and it said that some major stressor prior to this could have triggered him, like severe illness, family member death or illness, money problems, marital problems, legal issues, etc.
 
Question? How many of you would ever cross that dilapidated high bridge? Even if someone offered me $10 million, no way in hell would I do it. You’d think that would seriously narrow the suspect pool too, right. I mean you either have to be really brave or really stupid. For sure that guy’s crossed it before.

Also, he probably wasn’t on drugs or alcohol when he crossed, right. He could easily have fallen off if he was. That might help eliminate druggies and alcoholics.

I am scared of heights. I wouldn't want to cross that bridge. I would be freaked out. I could easily do it.

It looks like it is about 10 feet wide. So even without any railing, it would seem pretty easy to not fall off of the side of it. Although, I wouldn't recommend walking exactly in the center of it. I would stay a little bit off-center. Closer to where there is support directly under the rotting railroad ties.

Then you must consider the gaps between the ties themselves. How big are those gaps? 8 to 12 inches? Plenty of room to break an ankle, but you aren't going all the way through one of those gaps.

But then you have a few/handful of broken/missing RR ties. To me, this is by far the biggest hazard. In reality, it is just a long step over those gaps. For me, this would be the biggest mental challenge. I fear that I would get dizzy, weak in the knees, or freeze up halfway through stepping over a missing tie. But I think I could do it.

Lastly, another big hazard is having a tie break when you step on it. I think the odds of this happening is slim. Especially if you don't walk exactly in the center of the bridge (where the stress on the ties would be the greatest). Also, I think there is a good chance of avoiding falling all the way through if a tie did happen to break. But the possibility of a tie breaking would be in the back of my mind every step I took.

I've walked down many "regular" RR tracks. Even with gravel filling the gaps between the ties, I still intuitively only stepped on the ties. I would adjust my stride and quickly get into a rhythm (always with my head down "watching my step").

But, I agree, that bridge would be a deterrent to many. I think it was also an integral part of his plan. He knew that very few people actually cross it. Once he realized the girls were going all the way across, he knew that MOST LIKELY no one else would be coming across it behind them anytime soon.

Moo
 
I am scared of heights. I wouldn't want to cross that bridge. I would be freaked out. I could easily do it.

It looks like it is about 10 feet wide. So even without any railing, it would seem pretty easy to not fall off of the side of it. Although, I wouldn't recommend walking exactly in the center of it. I would stay a little bit off-center. Closer to where there is support directly under the rotting railroad ties.

Then you must consider the gaps between the ties themselves. How big are those gaps? 8 to 12 inches? Plenty of room to break an ankle, but you aren't going all the way through one of those gaps.

But then you have a few/handful of broken/missing RR ties. To me, this is by far the biggest hazard. In reality, it is just a long step over those gaps. For me, this would be the biggest mental challenge. I fear that I would get dizzy, weak in the knees, or freeze up halfway through stepping over a missing tie. But I think I could do it.

Lastly, another big hazard is having a tie break when you step on it. I think the odds of this happening is slim. Especially if you don't walk exactly in the center of the bridge (where the stress on the ties would be the greatest). Also, I think there is a good chance of avoiding falling all the way through if a tie did happen to break. But the possibility of a tie breaking would be in the back of my mind every step I took.

I've walked down many "regular" RR tracks. Even with gravel filling the gaps between the ties, I still intuitively only stepped on the ties. I would adjust my stride and quickly get into a rhythm (always with my head down "watching my step").

But, I agree, that bridge would be a deterrent to many. I think it was also an integral part of his plan. He knew that very few people actually cross it. Once he realized the girls were going all the way across, he knew that MOST LIKELY no one else would be coming across it behind them anytime soon.

Moo

I agree. He totally trapped them. With regard to the fear factor, honestly, I can’t even look at pictures of it without cringing. I’d probably have a massive coronary if forced to cross it. I cannot believe it hasn’t been condemned or at least shut down. It’s a major lawsuit waiting to happen.
 
I think if LE had any info about a car at the cps building, that they would have released that info to the public. Vehicle info seems like about the only info that LE is willing to release these days. They could get some great tips if they released a vehicle description. I think LE knows this. This is why I don't think that LE has a vehicle description. If they did, why would they be asking the public for info on it?

Personally, I'm very far from being convinced that there was even a vehicle there. I think there is a good chance that A: LE got a tip on a vehicle there and they would like someone else to confirm the info and/or give more info on the vehicle. Or B: LE is just fishing, and hoping to jog someone's memory about seeing a vehicle there. They haven't figured out where he was parked, so maybe someone said, "maybe he was parked at the cps bldg?"

I also don't think they're saying it was parked there from noon to 5pm. I think that is just the window they are interesed in. If whomever committed the crime parked there, then obviously the vehicle would have been there at some point between noon and 5.

I know some articles, or even statments from LE, might disagree with me, but I think we are all to familiar with bad reporting and police mis-speaking.

JMO
 
Was it "illegal" to cross the bridge before the murders? If it was, I'm sure it was one of those laws that wasn't really enforced. I would think it being illegal, would help the cities case in any lawsuits.

"Well they were breaking the law......."
"There were signs up saying to stay off of the bridge......" (if there were signs)
Etc......

MOO
 
I am scared of heights. I wouldn't want to cross that bridge. I would be freaked out. I could easily do it.

It looks like it is about 10 feet wide. So even without any railing, it would seem pretty easy to not fall off of the side of it. Although, I wouldn't recommend walking exactly in the center of it. I would stay a little bit off-center. Closer to where there is support directly under the rotting railroad ties.

Then you must consider the gaps between the ties themselves. How big are those gaps? 8 to 12 inches? Plenty of room to break an ankle, but you aren't going all the way through one of those gaps.

But then you have a few/handful of broken/missing RR ties. To me, this is by far the biggest hazard. In reality, it is just a long step over those gaps. For me, this would be the biggest mental challenge. I fear that I would get dizzy, weak in the knees, or freeze up halfway through stepping over a missing tie. But I think I could do it.

Lastly, another big hazard is having a tie break when you step on it. I think the odds of this happening is slim. Especially if you don't walk exactly in the center of the bridge (where the stress on the ties would be the greatest). Also, I think there is a good chance of avoiding falling all the way through if a tie did happen to break. But the possibility of a tie breaking would be in the back of my mind every step I took.

I've walked down many "regular" RR tracks. Even with gravel filling the gaps between the ties, I still intuitively only stepped on the ties. I would adjust my stride and quickly get into a rhythm (always with my head down "watching my step").

But, I agree, that bridge would be a deterrent to many. I think it was also an integral part of his plan. He knew that very few people actually cross it. Once he realized the girls were going all the way across, he knew that MOST LIKELY no one else would be coming across it behind them anytime soon.

Moo
I agree. I see the killer as a risk-taker, anyway. He's willing to go after two victims, in the middle of the day, in a public (albeit remote) area. He's willing to cross a creek, be it his intended plan or not. When it came time for him to step onto that bridge, his adrenaline was likely already humming because he was about to have those girls cornered.

I think he had probably been on that bridge before, however, it wouldn't shock me if he hadn't. I, myself, would be crawling over it. But then again, I wouldn't have the same motivation to get across. JMO
 
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I realize everyone loves the notion that the girls tried to flee across the creek. But let me try to demonstrate why it is unlikely. In sports and specifically American football there is something called the backdoor cover. That is when the underdog seizes advantage late and scores to finish inside the pointspread. It is an oft discussed scenario.

However, it is quite another matter when you are actually depending on it to happen. All perspective is lost. My friends and I used to take advantage of sucker tourists all the time in that situation, in man to man wagers. For example, let's say a 30 point favorite in college football got ahead by 35 in the middle of the 4th quarter. We'd hear the tourists chirping, "Here comes the backdoor cover. I guarantee it." This is when the big favorite has pulled all of its starters and is playing with reserves, while the heavy underdog is still using its top players.

It is incredible how often those sucker tourists would lose sight of big picture reality. We would wager on the remainder of the game. They would actually take the 30 point underdog at Even points for the remainder of the game, counting on that backdoor cover. I felt so sorry for them time and again, even as I was taking their money. That 30 point favorite has such manpower advantage that they were favored to score the first touchdown, favored to score the second touchdown, and so forth. They are still favored to score the eighth touchdown and the ninth touchdown.

Only warped perspective considers the huge underdog now the brief favorite, due to situational variance. And in a roundabout way that's how I'm trying to describe Delphi as the girls approached the creek. We know they lost big at the top of the bridge. Otherwise they wouldn't be down the hill and heading toward Deer Creek. We know they lost their lives atop the opposite bank within minutes. All of this makes perfect sense because once that bad guy pulled a weapon the girls became massive underdogs.

Yet somehow we want to pretend they suddenly seized advantage as they reached the creek. Meanwhile, nothing has logically changed. The killer hasn't dropped the weapon. He hasn't collapsed to the ground. He hasn't changed his mind. Only the fanciful notion of applying hero mode wants to make the girls the favorite for those next 15 or 20 seconds, or whatever.

It simply is not a good way to think. You are wagering on the big underdog, for no reason whatsoever. Kidding yourself due to flimsy subjectivity. And if law enforcement had sufficient training in probability they would fully understand this type of thing. They'd have experts describing it to them before they ever reached junior level, let alone anything beyond that. Jolt, jolt and more jolt. Flush out the group embrace of 2% scenarios.

I'll be blunt again. We need more women out there in these roles. Delphi suffers partially because males are occupying all the top spots. Law enforcement everywhere is hindered by gender distribution. I've done this long enough to recognize that females have greater grasp of probability than men, largely because they aren't as stubbornly dense and don't fall in love with preposterous scenarios merely because they align with every bias.

I don't disagree that we need more females in LE, but could you please provide a link that "females have a greater grasp of probabilities than men, largely because they aren't as stubbornly dense and don't fall in love with preposterous scenarios merely because they align with every bias"? Are there ANY statistics or probability studies or psychological/scientific studies that back this up? Or is it just your intuition? Actually, it sounds more like a virtue-signaling smear to me, but it could also be just good old fashioned bias (jmo).

Let ME be blunt. You can't equate the girl's actions on the top of the hill, or at the gravel path, or at the creek, to the strategies of football teams and wagering on football games, i.e. "we know they lost big at the top of the bridge"... but they could have "seized the advantage as they reached the creek". I'm sorry, but the fanciful notion of "hero mode" would not have allowed the girls in this case to somehow have made themselves the "favorite to win".

So, please spare us the condescending sports analogies suggesting that LE across the nation (and private sleuthers as well) would solve tons more crimes if they only knew what some Vegas gear heads back in the 80's knew about betting on NFL games. And that somehow if the victims of those crimes and LE had only known what you guys knew about the intricacies of probabilities, statistics, sports wagering, Las Vegas, underdogs, situational variances, blind covers, and/or participating on the game show Jeopardy, either the victims would not have ended up victims, or their cases would've been otherwise quickly solved.

I'm sure you're better at handicapping sports games than I am. And probability matters - it comes into play in all aspects of life (with me, mostly in the stock market). But (I'll be blunt again): I don't think it's fair to insinuate that Delphi and ISP LE would have solved this case by now if only they'd had your knowledge of probability and statistics. I think it is in fact demeaning to those who seek justice for Abby and Libby to say so. Jmo

And of course you know what they say about statistics anyway: "there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".

There's no doubt that statistics and probabilities are useful in criminal profiling. But I suspect that even profiling is about to face some obstacles in today's world, as "profiling" is just one step away from "stereotyping", and "stereotyping" is just one step away from "prejudice", and prejudice is just one step away from "discrimination", and "discrimination" is... well, I think you know where I'm going with this.

If a detective is not careful, statistics and probabilities and profiling can leave him stuck in a box (a group embracing one of your 2 percent scenarios, I suppose) . Wearing blinders. Sometimes detectives need to think outside the box to in order to solve a crime (and keep from nailing the wrong guy!). Life (and solving crimes) is not a wager, it's not a parlay card. All JMO
 
I think, the opposite. My feeling is, his goal was Libby, and she represented a threat, as to Abby - he either knew he could deal with later, or, for some reason that I can not understand, knew she would not recognize him had she survived.

He knew there was a risk that one girl would escape. For some reason, he took this risk. Why? Why was he not bothered to leave a witness?
Certainly the girls didn't know his sporting tactics to catch them both, how should they? But certainly he knew his ability very well and he always "quickly got around", two girls or one girl, on challenging terrain or on the streets, by car or on foot. I believe, in his eyes BG didn't take a big risk. He also knew for certain, should a situation arise, that he had the best excuse in the world to be at the MHB area and to even have contact with young people, as long as he was not seen by other visitors with some deadly tool in hand. IMO
 
Certainly the girls didn't know his sporting tactics to catch them both, how should they? But certainly he knew his ability very well and he always "quickly got around", two girls or one girl, on challenging terrain or on the streets, by car or on foot. I believe, in his eyes BG didn't take a big risk. He also knew for certain, should a situation arise, that he had the best excuse in the world to be at the MHB area and to even have contact with young people, as long as he was not seen by other visitors with some deadly tool in hand. IMO
I think this is a very good point. He knew his limitations, or lack thereof. He knew the risks he was willing to take. He could have turned around and walked away, but he didn't. Nothing happened to make him decide to do that. He seized an opportunity and followed through because he knew he could. That's an awfully hard person to go up against.
 
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I read something earlier tonight on a profile of the killer and it said that some major stressor prior to this could have triggered him, like severe illness, family member death or illness, money problems, marital problems, legal issues, etc.
IF we believe, BG has done crimes in his past already, he felt these triggers innumerable times in his life probably.
 
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