Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[Yemelyan]

Snipped.

I don't think any of those conversations have taken place because I don't think they've identified a prime suspect.

This sort of brought to my mind something that the current Carroll County prosecutor said in Episode 10 of DTH. The reporter asked him something like, would he feel a sense of relief when there is an arrest. He kind of laughed wryly and said no, that an arrest is just an accusation. It's not going to mean anything unless and until a conviction is obtained in court. All he is focused on is working on the facts available and preserving the integrity of what he knows, until the day in court arrives.

 

[TL4S]

This sort of brought to my mind something that the current Carroll County prosecutor said in Episode 10 of DTH. The reporter asked him something like, would he feel a sense of relief when there is an arrest. He kind of laughed wryly and said no, that an arrest is just an accusation. It's not going to mean anything unless and until a conviction is obtained in court. All he is focused on is working on the facts available and preserving the integrity of what he knows, until the day in court arrives.

I haven't really followed many cases. Is it common for the suspected killer to be acquitted in court? Or does this point to there not being much for prosecutable evidence in Delphi?

 

[JnRyan]

I don't think that this being a crime of opportunity doesn't mean that there wasn't planning involved - IMO it means that the victims were not specifically selected in advance. Everything else however could've been planned down to the last detail. I continue to think of BG as a predator and hunter who has chosen his weapon, positioned himself for the best view of the field, and when prey walks in to his line of sight, he goes for it. I also think that he has been to that trail, staking it out, perhaps has had multiple unsuccessful hunts where he goes home, unsatisfied, until that day, when he felt that everything was right - for him. But so horribly wrong for Abby and Libby.

I can certainly see this. I wonder if at least 2 or 3 folks remember someone resembling the sketch or maybe the video in the months leading up to the murders. (Of course, I can't remember anyone who sticks out to me when I was on a local trail this weekend. So its entirely possible he was there sometime before and was completely under the radar.) If this happens to be the case, I wonder if he has other areas or trails he visited somewhere else in the state.

 

[Yemelyan]

I haven't really followed many cases. Is it common for the suspected killer to be acquitted in court?

I actually don't know statistics on felony murder acquittals but I think it is not unusual for investigative teams to make an initial arrest that never proceeds all the way to trial conviction, for various reasons.

Due to advances in DNA. etc. I think it's overall less common now than it was in the past though it's happened in my area a few times over the last five years. Also the standards for charging someone with homicide are much higher now than they were in the past, so if it goes to trial it's more likely to be a strong case: Open Cases: Why One-Third Of Murders In America Go Unresolved

 

[photographer4]

Lately I've had two issues at the forefront of my mind regarding Delphi.

First, regarding BG's blue jacket. TL fielded a question in the second part (IIRC, perhaps it was part one however) of the Q & A with the Comet regarding the blue jacket. Paraphrasing, TL said that they have had many jackets turned in but not THE blue jacket. This leads to believe they have some way of identifying said jacket if it were to surface. So what could realistically allow LE to have a degree of confidence that they'll know the right jacket? Do they believe the jacket to have forensic evidence on it (i.e. blood) that would link it? Was a piece of the jacket torn off during a struggle and recovered at the scene (thus they're looking for a jacket that is uniquely damaged)? Perhaps there are more identifying markers on it that LE knows due to seeing the entire video? Would love to hear thoughts on the jacket and ways that LE could feel confident they'll know it when they/if they see it.

As a sidenote: I often wonder if once BG was alerted to having been filmed on the bridge if all the clothes we see him wearing have long since been destroyed.

Second, and I am not bringing DN up in terms of a POI so stick with me for a second. We know that LE sent investigators to Colorado to meet with and try to obtain a DNA sample (to my knowledge, if I am wrong please lmk) from DN pretty quickly upon his arrest. They eventually ruled him out as a POI for Delphi but it begs the question for me...was there something more than DN committing a trail crime that got their attention so quickly? I start to look at aspects of the incident such as threatening people on the trail with a hatchet. Could the type of weapon have been a red flag to Delphi investigators? Was it the type of car he was living out of (perhaps it matched generally a car that was reported near MHB combined with the trail setting of the crime? I feel there had to be something slightly more than "this guy committed a crime on a hiking trail" that made LE travel to meet with him. Obviously I could be wrong but I go back to their actions around the DN case and ask myself what could we potentially glean regarding Delphi that investigators saw in Colorado? Personally my mind has a hard time letting go of the type of weapon (a hatchet), I have long wondered if they thought the type of attack AND the weapon used matched Delphi too closely to not go look at. Again, would love to hear thoughts (but please not about DN himself or if he is BG as LE has ruled him out to my knowledge) about what we could possible learn about the Delphi investigation from the reaction to his case/crimes.

I also wondered if the hatchet used by DN was of significance to this case. But why? We don't know how the girls were killed - it may have been bloody and involved a sharp weapon (eg: a hatchet), or it may not have. It could have been not bloody at all. If the hatchet was significant, then why? DId he mark the trail with the hatchet? Could it have been in a similar way to something seen at the Crime Scene in this case? We don't know, because we're not told. It wouldn't shock me to learn that the area where the girls had been found was marked by the killer in some odd way.

 

[photographer4]

I can certainly see this. I wonder if at least 2 or 3 folks remember someone resembling the sketch or maybe the video in the months leading up to the murders. (Of course, I can't remember anyone who sticks out to me when I was on a local trail this weekend. So its entirely possible he was there sometime before and was completely under the radar.) If this happens to be the case, I wonder if he has other areas or trails he visited somewhere else in the state.

Yeah, I did a short experiment recently. At the end of Feb, I drove to a local fast food place, and made an order. While ordering, I made a point of looking around, and noticing the people walking around near my car. I specifically noted their physical appearance, face shape, hair color, accessories like hats or not, clothes, logos etc. I even noted the time of day. I remembered that info for a few days. Here we are a month later, and I only recall ONE person I saw that day, and only vaguely know what we was maybe wearing. I'm uncertain if he wore a hat or not.

Now, imagine asking people around Delphi (or any other area a crime has happened) to recall details days, weeks, months, YEARS after the fact? Even when paying close attention, these details were soon forgotten. Probably because they were average folks, doing average things.

There is another short experiment I did. I noted someone with some odd clothes and accessories last month. A month later, I can only recall that they were odd, their clothes were flashy, and the backpack one carried was a Paw Patrol, but that was odd because the guy carrying it was probably in his late teens. Otherwise? I don't remember a thing about them.

 

[Angels27]

? FOR LOCALS —

Can you guys please tell me which businesses in Delphi and the surrounding towns require the employees to wear khaki pants? Thank you.

 

[Gypsy86]

i sure hopoe they catch this monster. ever since this case happened it has just bothered me so much. someone out there has to know who this man is and obiviouly have no clue what type of man he is. i wonder if he is married, a loner, a drifter. from his clothing he dosent seem to be homeless nor poor. he is casual, wants to blend in. doesnt want to draw attention to himself. is there anyway the girls stopped somewhere before goin to the trail? possibly a store? maybe he spotted them prior and followed them. he was obviously hunting for his helpless pray. i dont feel that this crime was done out of randomness. it was to calculated and seemed planned. how often did the irls go to the trail? where was a local hang out for kids. this man is a monster and he has done these kinda of things before. more than likely he has abducted more than one person at a time before. a first time killer would have not done that. he knew his plan and how he was going to do it. he knew he could get away with it plain and simple

 

[Gypsy86]

killers like this have patience that are out of this world. and he used their love for one another to control them. pure evil

 

[photographer4]

This was the profile I was thinking of. However I notice the FBI refers to it as Behavioural Clues.

FBI releases list of behavioral clues to help track down suspect in murders of teens near Indiana trail
The FBI has since released a list of behavioral clues that could help lead investigators to the killer or killers. The agency is asking the public to be on the lookout for anyone who has exhibited the following signs:

• Changes in their daily routines, including modified sleep patterns
• Increased use of alcohol or drugs
• Cleaned or disposed of clothing and / or shoes that might have been worn on Feb. 13
• Missed work or other engagements
• Anxiety, nervousness or irritability
• Excessive attention to the investigation, media coverage or lengthy discussions related to the murders

"On Monday, February 13, the individual or individuals responsible for these crimes may have been absent from work, missed or cancelled appointment or social engagements, or been unavailable or unresponsive during the afternoon period," the FBI explained in a news release. "They may have been a 'no-show' or offered a plausible excuse for their absence or tardiness, such as illness, death in the family, car trouble, etc."....”

I wonder if that is a general statement about most murderers (they miss work, or an apt on the day of, seem to have a plausible excuse)... or if its specific to THIS case?

 

[Kittybunny]

I wonder if that is a general statement about most murderers (they miss work, or an apt on the day of, seem to have a plausible excuse)... or if its specific to THIS case?

I feel like it's the same for a lot of cases I've followed, so I would be surprised if it was specific to this case. Someone (@Yemelan?) previously mentioned that if a specific profile is done for a case, that it is rarely released publicly, at least not all of it.

 

[MistyWaters]

I wonder if that is a general statement about most murderers (they miss work, or an apt on the day of, seem to have a plausible excuse)... or if its specific to THIS case?

I’d be sure it’s general behaviours by any criminal attempting to thwart detection as over time there’s been significant studies of common traits amongst criminals who are incarcerated. Some of the same philosophy of the common behaviours were echoed by DC in the April/19 PC including “you want to know what we know”.

Anyone covering up a crime would have to lie about their whereabouts at the time the crime occurred. Someone noting those sorts of excuses by another person would be a tip LE would be very interested in. JMO

 

[photographer4]

? FOR LOCALS —

Can you guys please tell me which businesses in Delphi and the surrounding towns require the employees to wear khaki pants? Thank you.

I came up with Kroger as a possibility? Why do you ask?

 

[Gypsy86]

YES AND LIKE ALOT OF CASES SOME INFROMATION IS GOING TO BE WITHHELD DO TO TRYING TO PREVENT FALSE CONFESSIONS. ITS LIKE SOME OF THEM MONSTERS TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OTHER MURDERS SO THE ONES FREE CAN KEEP KILLING

 

[Fika]

Hi,

I read websleuths before but never posted.
I'm Dutch living in sweden so forgive my grammar!. I read websleuths about Dutch hikers which i followed and you guys were incredible.
I was introduced to Delphi case by a friend of mine who grew up there and moved away to Europe few years ago.
I read quite a bit about the case here but not 100% of threads.
I came across a few mentions of trial itself. And how would murderer know about it I would like to share some things with you.

* trials are not hard to find. I never been to United States but after I met a friend from Delphi i Google it out of curiosity and the bridge was in top search of places to see there. It was on TripAdvisor and reddit. One didn't need to know about it as local to go there.

* i belive the video tape was taken accidentally not on purpose. If one feel threatened its usually 911 call or sms to friends /family that would be a first line if scared of someone.
I believe video was taken and murder happened to walk on thats why the picture is so pixeled because it's from far far away.

* I also believe that main motive was sexual assault but time didn't let that happened / murderer was spooked or girls put up bigger fight then he anticipated.

* crossing the river /creek is not unusual and doesn't necessarily mean person know the area. Its logical thinking that one can be caught doing something while on trail. If he took girls off the trail he might have been easily caught by passersby/dog( which would give an attention to what's going on). Crossing creek gives you control over people who might come by. In case he was caught /seen he will have time to escape before someone would cross water to get to them.

* i dont believe he is local because it's hard to grasp that to me. I grew up in a small dutch town and I knew everyone and even their extended families. Even if his family doesn't want to say he could be a suspect someone has to see him. He would need to be out there seeing a doctor, having a job, doing groceries, etc etc

That's all my own opinion.
Ps. Forget my grammar mistakes

 

[Yemelyan]

I wonder if that is a general statement about most murderers (they miss work, or an apt on the day of, seem to have a plausible excuse)... or if its specific to THIS case?

JMO, it's general offender behavior associated with the abduction and murder of children. This article talks about post-offense behavior for these types of murders: Child abduction murder: the impact of forensic evidence on solvability - PubMed

According to that study, the most common behaviors are: returning to the body disposal site, leaving town immediately after the crime, confiding in someone about the crime, and following the case in the media. I'm unclear if changing appearance was one of the variables considered in this analysis (though it stands logically to reason that this would frequently occur). But you can see how post-offense behavioral analysis connects to some of the recommendations mentioned at the Delphi press conference.

 

[carbuff]

Do you know if those characteristics are also true of younger offenders? They wouldn't have as much flexibility to leave town or even miss school, for instance.

 

[MadMcGoo]

As I read about Abby and Libby’s murders, I can’t help but think of the Closs case and the type of perp Patterson is/was. The entire crime really. If you’re familiar with that case, I think you’ll understand what I mean. So many wild theories. In the end it really was relatively simple, yet unpredictable.

 

[carbuff]

As I read about Abby and Libby’s murders, I can’t help but think of the Closs case and the type of perp Patterson is/was. The entire crime really. If you’re familiar with that case, I think you’ll understand what I mean. So many wild theories. In the end it really was relatively simple, yet unpredictable.

I've wondered about a similar offender in Abby and Libby's case.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Hi,

I read websleuths before but never posted.
I'm Dutch living in sweden so forgive my grammar!. I read websleuths about Dutch hikers which i followed and you guys were incredible.
I was introduced to Delphi case by a friend of mine who grew up there and moved away to Europe few years ago.
I read quite a bit about the case here but not 100% of threads.
I came across a few mentions of trial itself. And how would murderer know about it I would like to share some things with you.

* trials are not hard to find. I never been to United States but after I met a friend from Delphi i Google it out of curiosity and the bridge was in top search of places to see there. It was on TripAdvisor and reddit. One didn't need to know about it as local to go there.

* i belive the video tape was taken accidentally not on purpose. If one feel threatened its usually 911 call or sms to friends /family that would be a first line if scared of someone.
I believe video was taken and murder happened to walk on thats why the picture is so pixeled because it's from far far away.

* I also believe that main motive was sexual assault but time didn't let that happened / murderer was spooked or girls put up bigger fight then he anticipated.

* crossing the river /creek is not unusual and doesn't necessarily mean person know the area. Its logical thinking that one can be caught doing something while on trail. If he took girls off the trail he might have been easily caught by passersby/dog( which would give an attention to what's going on). Crossing creek gives you control over people who might come by. In case he was caught /seen he will have time to escape before someone would cross water to get to them.

* i dont believe he is local because it's hard to grasp that to me. I grew up in a small dutch town and I knew everyone and even their extended families. Even if his family doesn't want to say he could be a suspect someone has to see him. He would need to be out there seeing a doctor, having a job, doing groceries, etc etc

That's all my own opinion.
Ps. Forget my grammar mistakes

Welcome Fika!
Great post! I pretty much agree with all of it especially the part about the trails not being as unknown as people seem to think. That myth was shattered in the HLN special back in February when the head of the Delphi Chamber of Commerce talked about consistently handing out brochures about the trails to people once the trails opened. To me, that blows up the thought that the killer has to be local simply because he “knew the trails”.