George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 1

[Tippy Lynn]

I see differently. He perhaps could be seen by even lay folks that he was not compliant until he was face down.. and not resisting.

That is what the officer was speaking to. Even minimally. They were at level #4 of the "use of force continuim" with the handcuffs..They had seen still resistance. Then they pulled him out and went to level #5.

Once they had them in deadly force #5 (and before) of the knee on neck, they were obligated to check and care for him and reassess as he no longer was resisting. MOO

That's my understanding as well.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I think it would have been safe to use naloxone even if he had taken meth or other drugs. The problem is that they didn't seem to confirm that he had taken fentanyl. When he was face down on the ground they asked him what "he was on" but didn't try very hard to get an answer.

Exactly. They don't need to KNOW that he is on drugs (watch COPS and other live stuff to see!) They do NARCAN through assessment as it doen't have bad effects if not needed. But heck, Chauvin didn't even assess breathing or pulse and react, much less assessment and looking at pupils etc.

MOO


RE NARCAN (aka Naloxone) Does naloxone reverse any overdose?

Naloxone only works on overdoses caused by opioids. This family of drugs includes prescription painkillers like OxyContin, fentanyl, methadone, and Vicodin, as well as street drugs like heroin. Naloxone will not reverse overdose resulting from non-opioid drugs, like cocaine, benzodiazepines (“benzos”), or alcohol. Given how safe naloxone is, a victim of a non-opioid overdose, or an overdose caused by a mixture of drugs will not be harmed by naloxone. In multiple drug overdoses (e.g., an opioid and a benzodiazepine) it is still worth administering naloxone as it will remove the effects of the opioid and may still reverse the overdose.

 

[MrsWatson]

I find it significant that Chauvin has not even the one person allowed showing up to court for him. No one. Not a friend, a cousin, a neighbor, an old partner. No one.

 

[Cubby]

I see differently. He perhaps could be seen by even lay folks that he was not compliant until he was face down.. and not resisting.

That is what the officer was speaking to. Even minimally. They were at level #4 of the "use of force continuim" with the handcuffs..They had seen still resistance. Then they pulled him out and went to level #5.

Once they had them in deadly force #5 (and before) of the knee on neck, they were obligated to check and care for him and reassess as he no longer was resisting. MOO

But deadly force is limited to certain situations. There was no threat to anyone when a subject is handcuffed.

Does a handcuffed suspect resisting being placed in a police vehicle justify deadly force?

I'm trying to find police policy justification for the placement of a cuffed subject in a prone position-in any situation- and I can't find it.

 

[turaj]

I'm not following you at all as to what you are referring to. Can you expound?

ETA: Oh, are you talking about the knee to the shoulder.(he did to neck).. Do we have a pdf to link for such that has been changed?

no pdf links to anything at all...just local news here in Minneapolis...quite the dispute that it was policy at the time....and it has been changed. Maybe Chauvin did not do exactly what he should in that move? Not a clue I just heard local news and am trying to think of angles that defense can use because frankly no matter what the criteria will be was that force reasonable for the situation and so far it sure does not seem so.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I find it significant that Chauvin has not even the one person allowed showing up to court for him. No one. Not a friend, a cousin, a neighbor, an old partner. No one.

I'm assuming for safety reasons everyone was advised not to.

 

[MrsWatson]

I'm assuming for safety reasons everyone was advised not to.

Didn't even think of that, good point.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

no pdf links to anything at all...just local news here in Minneapolis...quite the dispute that it was policy at the time....and it has been changed. Maybe Chauvin did not do exactly what he should in that move? Not a clue I just heard local news and am trying to think of angles that defense can use because frankly no matter what the criteria will be was that force reasonable for the situation and so far it sure does not seem so.

Here's a link to an article on this subject.

The policy was changed or removed in June 2020 - just days after this incident.

A chokehold, the manual states, is a "deadly force option," which the police department defines as "applying direct pressure on a person's trachea or airway." A neck restraint is a "non-deadly force option" defined as "compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway."

The training manual, issued to all new officers, also features an image of how to execute the neck restraint. "Ok they are in handcuffs now what," the title above the image states. The department warns that "sudden cardiac arrest typically occurs immediately following a violent struggle." It also advises officers to "place the subject in the recovery position to alleviate positional asphyxia" and encourages officers to call emergency services once the suspect is in handcuffs.

The Minneapolis Police Department trained its officers to use the neck restraint that led to George Floyd's killing, according to court documents


https://twitter.com/b_stahl/status/1280913421161168897?

 

[Cappuccino]

I find it significant that Chauvin has not even the one person allowed showing up to court for him. No one. Not a friend, a cousin, a neighbor, an old partner. No one.

Would you?

 

[MrsWatson]

Would you?

Yeah, no matter what my relationship with him, I'd be done.

I almost had a moment of sympathy for him.

 

[Leilei]

I find it significant that Chauvin has not even the one person allowed showing up to court for him. No one. Not a friend, a cousin, a neighbor, an old partner. No one.

I'm behind today, but

Exactly. They don't need to KNOW that he is on drugs (watch COPS and other live stuff to see!) They do NARCAN through assessment as it doen't have bad effects if not needed. But heck, Chauvin didn't even assess breathing or pulse and react, much less assessment and looking at pupils etc.

MOO


RE NARCAN (aka Naloxone) Does naloxone reverse any overdose?

Naloxone only works on overdoses caused by opioids. This family of drugs includes prescription painkillers like OxyContin, fentanyl, methadone, and Vicodin, as well as street drugs like heroin. Naloxone will not reverse overdose resulting from non-opioid drugs, like cocaine, benzodiazepines (“benzos”), or alcohol. Given how safe naloxone is, a victim of a non-opioid overdose, or an overdose caused by a mixture of drugs will not be harmed by naloxone. In multiple drug overdoses (e.g., an opioid and a benzodiazepine) it is still worth administering naloxone as it will remove the effects of the opioid and may still reverse the overdose.

They should have tried. I didn't know that Naloxone was safe for all of these drugs.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

How does this statute come into play in this trial? Will the defense try to say that Chauvin used deadly force that is allowed in this statute?

To poster Ranch in response: For your first question: MOO

Today, the CIC (Case in chief/prosecutor's turn) part of this trial was laser focused on showing/proving Chauvin's deadly force to GF - with their witness Richard Zimmerman.

That is why the prosecution brought it up today. To show the assualt part of the charge/to prove such deadly force = felony. MOO

For your second question as to admitting that the defense will also say he used deadly force: MOO We shall see how they dance on that.

The defense, they don't have to also "say" he had used deadly force to prove it.???.. Yet, why strategically would they need to buttress/want to bring up and say it is allowed? That just reinforces what the prosecution is saying. He used DEADLY FORCE.. which bumps up the charge for their client.

Are you saying they have a reason to buttress what the State appears to have just proven for a reason I'm totally missing??

I wish I knew. Do we have a lawyer in this thread???

IANAL, see above

from previous poster...

Frank: What level of force might that be?
Z: That would be the top tier, the deadly force.
F: Why?
Z: Because of the fact that if your knee is on a person's neck that can kill them.

Zimmerman testifies he has never been trained to "kneel on the neck of someone who is handcuffed behind the back" in his time with MPD.

Frank: What's your responsibility with regard to that person from that moment [handcuffed] on?

Zimmerman: That person is yours, is your responsibility.

His safety is your responsibility and his well being is your responsibility.

Zimmerman says "the threat level is just not there" once someone is handcuffed.

Zimmerman has been handcuffed as part of his training and says "it stretches the muscles back through your chest, and it makes it more difficult to breathe."

https://twitter.com/anavilastra/status/1378009895019102209?s=21

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Does the autopsy not showing any neck injury create a problem for the prosecution? If the neck shows no signs of trauma then does that show that deadly force wasn’t used? I’m getting so nervous for the defence’s witnesses now because I feel this is where it’s going MOO

 

[margarita25]

Question, on Day 2 when GH gave her first testimony, it was emphasized by the State, iirc, that her age is 27. Was it ever revealed why this is significant, did I miss this? Tia.

 

[RANCH]

To poster Ranch in response: For your first question: MOO

Today, the CIC (Case in chief/prosecutor's turn) part of this trial was laser focused on showing/proving Chauvin's deadly force to GF - with their witness Richard Zimmerman.

That is why the prosecution brought it up today. To show the assualt part of the charge/to prove such deadly force = felony. MOO

For your second question as to admitting that the defense will also say he used deadly force: MOO We shall see how they dance on that.

They don't have to also "say" he had used deadly force to prove it... Yet, why strategically would they need to butress/want to bring up and say it is allowed? That just reinforces what the prosecution is saying. He used DEADLY FORCE.. which bumps up the charge for their client.

Are you saying they have a reason to buttress what the State appears to have just proven for a reason I'm totally missing??



IANAL, see above

from previous poster...

Frank: What level of force might that be?
Z: That would be the top tier, the deadly force.
F: Why?
Z: Because of the fact that if your knee is on a person's neck that can kill them.

Zimmerman testifies he has never been trained to "kneel on the neck of someone who is handcuffed behind the back" in his time with MPD.

Frank: What's your responsibility with regard to that person from that moment [handcuffed] on?

Zimmerman: That person is yours, is your responsibility.

His safety is your responsibility and his well being is your responsibility.

Zimmerman says "the threat level is just not there" once someone is handcuffed.

Zimmerman has been handcuffed as part of his training and says "it stretches the muscles back through your chest, and it makes it more difficult to breathe."

https://twitter.com/anavilastra/status/1378009895019102209?s=21

Did the State present evidence showing that every time a police officer has used the knee to neck restraint the suspect died?

 

[dixiegirl1035]

..

Here's a link to an article on this subject.

The policy was changed or removed in June 2020 - just days after this incident.

A chokehold, the manual states, is a "deadly force option," which the police department defines as "applying direct pressure on a person's trachea or airway." A neck restraint is a "non-deadly force option" defined as "compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway."

The training manual, issued to all new officers, also features an image of how to execute the neck restraint. "Ok they are in handcuffs now what," the title above the image states. The department warns that "sudden cardiac arrest typically occurs immediately following a violent struggle." It also advises officers to "place the subject in the recovery position to alleviate positional asphyxia" and encourages officers to call emergency services once the suspect is in handcuffs.

The Minneapolis Police Department trained its officers to use the neck restraint that led to George Floyd's killing, according to court documents


https://twitter.com/b_stahl/status/1280913421161168897?

Someone else can go down the rabbit hole of when they did the video in the ambulance when the ambulance guy asked Lane that EXACT question. If he was in a struggle prior. (I would like to have verbatim vs. my paraphrase). But when I heard what he responded, I was at my computer screen saying " NO!!!! That is not the full truth" MOO.

 

[Cubby]

Does the autopsy not showing any neck injury create a problem for the prosecution? If the neck shows no signs of trauma then does that show that deadly force wasn’t used? I’m getting so nervous for the defence’s witnesses now because I feel this is where it’s going MOO

This is an excellent question. I have wondered the same. However with the testimony about difficulty breathing due to stretched chest muscles and why they should not be in the prone position while cuffed will be included.

 

[FinalGirl]

Question, on Day 2 when GH gave her first testimony, it was emphasized by the State, iirc, that her age is 27. Was it ever revealed why this is significant, did I miss this? Tia.

I believe it was to make the jury aware of how the bystanders were all different age groups, races, genders etc but they all knew what they were seeing was wrong.

 

[In vino veritas]

Here's a link to an article on this subject.

The policy was changed or removed in June 2020 - just days after this incident.

A chokehold, the manual states, is a "deadly force option," which the police department defines as "applying direct pressure on a person's trachea or airway." A neck restraint is a "non-deadly force option" defined as "compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway."

The training manual, issued to all new officers, also features an image of how to execute the neck restraint. "Ok they are in handcuffs now what," the title above the image states. The department warns that "sudden cardiac arrest typically occurs immediately following a violent struggle." It also advises officers to "place the subject in the recovery position to alleviate positional asphyxia" and encourages officers to call emergency services once the suspect is in handcuffs.

The Minneapolis Police Department trained its officers to use the neck restraint that led to George Floyd's killing, according to court documents


https://twitter.com/b_stahl/status/1280913421161168897?

So if, in fact, the knee on the side of the neck is non- deadly, Nelson can argue that DC was acting in compliance with procedures in place at the time.
Where DC is culpable, IMO, is the excessive length of time he was on GF’s neck and in his failure to at least check on his charge’s condition and render aid.
Again IMO, with the autopsy showing NO damage to external or internal neck muscles/ tissue, it will be difficult to prove murder beyond reasonable doubt.
For me.... at this point in the trial.... 2nd degree manslaughter seems the mostly likely conviction. IMO, of course.

 

[mom2chloe]

Sounds like Maurice or Morries is in custody in jail in an adjoining country here in Minnesota...domestic assault charge...he has other outstanding cases ...one domestic assault by strangulation etc. I hope State does not give him some deal...he is dangerous on the street...not sure that the state really needs him as witness?

This guy is a real piece of work. If he is the person behind the counterfeit bills this essentially could have been avoided. He didn’t kill GF but he sure laid the groundwork for this nightmare. IMO
With friends like him who needs enemies? FPS!